octane/ethanol question

[jmorton10]

First, the only station in my area that sold premium that was ethanol free stopped carrying it.  That left nothing available except 93 octane but it was 10% ethanol.

Now, they started re-carrying the ethanol free premium except now it's only 90 octane.  So now it's ethanol 93 octane or no ethanol 90 octane.   I'm sure the ethanol free is the better choice, but does anyone know how bad ethanol really is??

~John

[smoserx1]

I have heard the problem with ethanol is short shelf life.  If you ride frequently it should not be a problem.  I haven't had any problem with it as long as it is 10% or less.  I can get 89 ethanol free and I use that too in my bike.  It runs fine.  I try to get this fuel for outdoor power equipment because might not get used up as fast.  Don't want it gumming things up.

[chopper]

I've run nothing but 10% Ethanol, 87 octane in my 02 since new. Set up the carb  in 03 and haven't touched the carb since. I suppose if you let it sit for a long time, it'll gum up, but I never had it with my bike.
  Now in damn near everything else, I've had goo and gummed up jets, but only when they sit.

[chaos901]

I've never had an issue (unless you count reduced MPG) using 10% in my bikes. 

[JW113]

I think since the invention of gasoline, it goes bad if it sets for any length of time. I used to scrape some nasty crap out float bowls after the winter hibernation during the leaded gas days. I think the only concern with any ethanol blend is to make sure the plastic/rubber parts (fuel lines, O rings, floats) are compatible with alcohol.

-JW

[carolinayarddog]

I've run 87 for years on two different touring bikes; only issue i've noticed is pinging in hot weather

[Paniolo]

What about this method of removing the ethanol from the gas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDEL7WLN5U

Has anyone experience with this method?

[q1svt]

I'm sure the ethanol free is the better choice, but does anyone know how bad ethanol really is??

~John

Other than storage & it generally does not make as much HP...

You just need to tune for it [or what ever fuel you run]

Here is an article from Hot Rod about it and there is a very good table near the end for comparison...  bottomline the more ethanol you run more fuel the motor needs to be equal'ish

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/wideband-oxygen-sensor/

Use Pure Gasoline Stoichiometric   A/F ratio of 14.7 as a baseline to compare...

[smoserx1]

What about this method of removing the ethanol from the gas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDEL7WLN5U

No thank you.

[Rusticwater]

What about this method of removing the ethanol from the gas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDEL7WLN5U

Has anyone experience with this method?

Didn't watch the whole thing, just skipped through it. Looks pretty neat, quite the chemistry experiment. He does that for the old Indian in the background?

[Paniolo]

What about this method of removing the ethanol from the gas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDEL7WLN5U

Has anyone experience with this method?

Didn't watch the whole thing, just skipped through it. Looks pretty neat, quite the chemistry experiment. He does that for the old Indian in the background?

Yes. The Indians older internals and valve train does not take well to ethanol infused gas.

[JW113]

Well that's interesting. Mine has lived on it for 25 years, no problems yet. I'm curious why you think that, though. The innards of an old Indian are not that much different than the innards of modern HD. Iron and aluminum.


Why all the worry about ethanol? It's an octane enhancer. 113 iso-octane, to be precise. Yes, it has less chemical energy per unit volume than gasoline, but at 10%, not enough to even give a passing thought about.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_gallon_equivalent

But I get it. Some people thrive on worring about nothing. Like what kind of oil they use.


-JW

[Hossamania]

It's not the ethanol that's really a problem with the old Indians, it's the lack of lead.

[PoorUB]

What about this method of removing the ethanol from the gas?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdDEL7WLN5U

No thank you.

Seems like a lot of screwing around when he can drive 40 miles down the road and buy non-ethanol fuel.

[Moparnut72]

The nearest non-ethanol fuel for me is about 300 miles away, except for maybe Nevada.. It is only available at a couple of marinas, but I don't think they will let me ride on on the dock to fuel up. Then there is the problem of turning around.   
kk

[JW113]

It's not the ethanol that's really a problem with the old Indians, it's the lack of lead.

Stainless steel valves helps on that front.

-JW

[fbn ent]

Up here all Shell Gold is ethanol free 91. It's all I run unless I can't find one when I need gas.

[ViseGrips]

 click on your Province or State for ethanal free gas .. https://www.pure-gas.org/

[smoserx1]

When I bought my bike in 99 and commuted to wwork in the winter I would occasionally get carburetor icing.  The conditions had to be just right (usually 35-40°F and high relative humidity.  It only occurred a few times per winter but was very obvious when it did (fuel odor from exhaust, poor idle, stalling, low power).  Get to work with the bike running like  total crap and in the afternoon it ran like a champ.  About 2005 was when all the stations all started carrying the ethanol laced gasoline.  I never had the icing issue after that.  Since I bought the bike I have changed the fuel lines several times, overhauled the carburetor once, replaced the vacuum piston in the carburetor a few times and replaced the sending unit 3 or 4 times.  I have just never found anything that would indicate damage from this stuff.  Yes I would rather have 100% gasoline but I am not going to worry about it.

[Hossamania]

John (OP), I would try the 90 octane ethynol free, if it works without the motor pinging, that's what I would run. If it pings a bit, back to the 93.

[wood02]

Friend use to deliver gasoline to several different stations.  Fuel would come in by barge and unloaded into tanks for storage.  He would get a call and take a semi tankard (7200 gallon) load it with gasoline and the ingredients required by the particular station...he said all the gasoline was the same...just different additives to make it what was called for.  He actually added these ingredients. I do not think he was pulling my leg.  Who can know for sure what we get from the pump and the quality.  I have always been skeptical.  Something else to "wonder" ?

[Lone Ranger]

Since MTBE was banned they have to use some ethanol just as an octane enhancer.

[rbabos]

Removing the ethanol is nothing new but I'm quite sure it's part of the octane equation in the fuel. As Hoss pointed out lack of lead is the issue with the old school valve seats. Any zinc or old style hoses and possibly floats won't fair well with ethanol either.
Ron

[Hossamania]

My buddie has an old '47 Indian, engine rebuilt in the late 70's, so it may or may not have hardened valve guides to cope with the unleaded fuel, but the problem he has is that the carb will stick if he doesn't use lead additive, which of course helps the valves too. But the other problem he has is that ethanol free fuel is usually higher octane around here, and that motor prefers a lower octane since it is about about 7.5/1 compression ratio, making a whopping 11 horsepower out of an 80" motor, according to the owners manual. That manual is the size of a pocket notebook and is 7 pages total.
It is truly a one kick bike. Runs fantastic, he still rides it on a regular basis.
I think this is a '46, his is the same, black seat, just didn't have that pic.

[HogMike]

In my older bikes I just added a little MM oil to the gas, seemed to work fine.
My 65 has been all over the western states over the years, never had a problem with the stock valve seats. My other bikes I never ran that hard, but never had a problem with the low compression motors.

JME

[JW113]

Hoss, mine is 5:1, makes about 35HP, and runs fine on just about what ever you want to dump in it. Kind of like a Briggs & Stratton. Octane is a non-issue, high or low. And keep in mind that even though leaded gas or "Ethyl" was developed in the 1920s, it was not really in wide use for cars until the late 40s. Most auto and motorcycle engines of the day were low compression and didn't need it, and with the depression and war, nobody could afford it anyway. Detroit started making higher compression engines commonly available after the war. Lead does tend to improve valve and seat live, but need to keep things in perspective. Most people (me, anyway) don't put 20,000 miles a year on ancient iron. So valve/seat life is a not really a concern for most of us.

-JW

[Deye76]

 I use Seafoam in everything. Stabilizies the gas, and helps with carbon build up. In my old Panhead, sometime in the 1980's I had nickel alloy seats and stainless valves installed in the heads. 15% scares me.

[smoserx1]

I read an article long ago that said the problem with old engines and unleaded gas was valve seat recession.  The article said it was mainly exhaust valves in old cars with cast iron heads that did not use seat inserts.  It pretty much said that any head with a seat insert would be ok without lead in the gas.  I was under the impression that most anything with an aluminum head would require a seat insert to last any time at all (but I might be totally off base here) 

[IronButt70]

Friend use to deliver gasoline to several different stations.  Fuel would come in by barge and unloaded into tanks for storage.  He would get a call and take a semi tankard (7200 gallon) load it with gasoline and the ingredients required by the particular station...he said all the gasoline was the same...just different additives to make it what was called for.  He actually added these ingredients. I do not think he was pulling my leg.  Who can know for sure what we get from the pump and the quality.  I have always been skeptical.  Something else to "wonder" ?

I worked for a company in the 70s that did contract work for Mobil. What your friend said is true. All the raw gas comes from a few refineries. Each brand name adds their own additives when it's delivered to their storage facilities.

[JW113]

I read an article long ago that said the problem with old engines and unleaded gas was valve seat recession.   

That is basically correct. The issue is that when the valve and seat get hot, they sort of "weld" themselves together at the contact surface, and when the valve opens, break apart, taking a few atoms of metal with it. Tetraethyl lead helps to slow that process down, acting as an insulator between the valve and seat. Of course, it's also a highly toxic substance and should have never been used in the first place. The real solution is to use materials with a higher resistance to heat. I don't think that just because you have iron or steel seats in an aluminum head mean your motor is immune to errosion, since old Volkswagen heads were also at risk after the switch to no lead. It all depends on what the valves and seats are made of. I think the bottom line is that even with the old stuff, the valve/seat errosion process takes quite a long time until you need to be concerned about it. Basically means shorter time between vavle jobs, say 80,000 miles vs. 100,000 miles. People like to worry about it, but the reality is that it's not the end of the world.

-JW