Before for buying a "Ride True" does anyone do this?

[JohnCA58]

I just finished putting a 06 Street Glide back together, first off this thing had the wobbles and I could see this thing just snap wicked when my friend rode in front of me, scared the crap outta me and I wasn't on the bike,  we took the thing apart and I found the shaft in great shape, but the hole thru the trans was 25 thous. out of round,  so I reamed this thing out and put a set of king pin bushing in there and put a another swing arm I had with good spherical bearings, the thing is tight, BUT tonight I was looking at this thing and I find the left donut is not really sitting on the frame rails but sitting more toward the inside with quite of bit of the donut showing looking from the rear,  the paint tins are off being painted, and I had the battery box out.  if I can remember, the donut should be sitting squarely in line with the frame right ?  obviously the donut need to get support from the frame or it will just move around.  anyone have seen that before.

[Admiral Akbar]

John,

I'm having trouble visualizing what you are talking about but the donut should be compressing the swing arm between the outside block evenly. If not you may have the front or top mounts off. Without sheet metal you should be able to ensure that the rear wheel lines up with the back bone of the frame, with some string and a good eyeball..

Max

[JohnCA58]

I just went out to the shop and took a look at it again,  I can see two of the three rings on the donut but on both sides, Stopping and thinking about this , I can see that it dont matter, as long as the end caps are aligned with the donut and it compresses the donut correctly, it shouldnt matter if the frame supports the outer part of the donut.   I just did a quick check of the vertical alignment and it is off more than 7 degree from front to rear,  so I will do the alignment tomorrow and it should all be good.  I did check the play like you did and with a 3 foot pry bar and some force I got less than .010,  and with gorilla force and the 3 foot leverage it went to .016.  so that should be ok.   

[Admiral Akbar]

Also get the rear wheel vertical like the front. If you got a stand that can get the wheels straight you can use a machinist square and a machinist level against the disc rotors to get the wheels vertical. Get everything aligned gets the side loading off the frame. Tires are important also. Eh Bob?

Max

[JAFHR]

Could you please explain how you align the back end. I know about the adjustment up on the top of the front of the engine but don't know about the back.

[superglidesport1]

A bit OT and maybe not even worth mentioning but:
When we were in the past "excess" economy no matter what a company made that could be used on a Harley it would sell....to someone.

Now we are looking for more justification for purchases. We want a bit more proof than propaganda telling us that if we want our bike to run down the road without wobbling or even possible death due to ill-handling, we need to add on some widget the MOCO somehow forgot, ignored, wasn't aware of, saved a buck, etc, etc.

Does anyone actually think the MOCO knows they built a defective chassis and purposely ignored the "missing link" (determined by an individual in his garage) to save a buck?
Show me a bike with a straight frame and the alignment is correct, without worn out parts, and I'll show you a bike that has no handling issues.
Show me a bike with worn out swingarm bushings and/or mounts and I'll show you a wobbler that can be bandaided a bit by adding a link to hold the swingarm from flopping side-to-side. IMO not the right fix.

I know we have a tendency to blame the MOCO for saving a buck wherever they feel they can, but to think for a second the MOCO was/is clueless as to a missing link that could save lives and make for a much better handling motorcycle, I feel is a bit naive. The MOCO has a lot of very bright engineers that are hired to think and improve the design of the motorcycles HD sells.

Just my $.02,
Bob

Bob,

The MOCO does have an obligation to deliver a product that remains safe in light of some normal and expected wear and tear due to typical use. In almost every case of wobble complaints the mileage is fairly minimal and there is most likely zero indication of excessive wear and tear anywhere. If one has to resort to alignment using fixtures and dial indicators, then IMHO manufacturing QC is deficient and the design is suspect.

[TXChop]

Well, i think Bob and Max will like this post!   


My dad has a 2005 Cvo E Glide with a built 103 and a DD6.  It has 27k miles on it now. Before this season i changed both tires to Avons, Both rear swingarm donuts, new HD motor mount and aligned the bike with the tool from Georges garage. Bike never felt better. Rock solid 1 up, or 2 up.

Well, long story short, got a smoking deal on a Progressive Touring Link. So i thought. I secretly installed it on his bike. He rode it for 3 weeks(about 1k miles). After that time i asked him how his bike has been handling. He said great, no different than usual. I rode the bike as well and it felt exactly the same. So, i am pulling it off and throwing on my bike to give it a shot. Dont expect much though.

[Admiral Akbar]

If one has to resort to alignment using fixtures and dial indicators, then IMHO manufacturing QC is deficient and the design is suspect.

Right on, Lets get back to Rocks and Clubs!

Could you please explain how you align the back end. I know about the adjustment up on the top of the front of the engine but don't know about the back.

You do the back by setting the front motor mount.

Max

[FLTRI]

Well, i think Bob and Max will like this post!   


My dad has a 2005 Cvo E Glide with a built 103 and a DD6.  It has 27k miles on it now. Before this season i changed both tires to Avons, Both rear swingarm donuts, new HD motor mount and aligned the bike with the tool from Georges garage. Bike never felt better. Rock solid 1 up, or 2 up.

Well, long story short, got a smoking deal on a Progressive Touring Link. So i thought. I secretly installed it on his bike. He rode it for 3 weeks(about 1k miles). After that time i asked him how his bike has been handling. He said great, no different than usual. I rode the bike as well and it felt exactly the same. So, i am pulling it off and throwing on my bike to give it a shot. Dont expect much though.

You've done a wonderful job of showing my point.
Thanks,
Bob
Now if the frame is out of spec an add-on do-dad will not correct that so I still don't see the purpose for a properly maintained suspension, to add anything on to it that may simply mask a worn out suspension piece(s).
Sure if the swingarm bushins are worn out there is going to be a definite improvement from hanging a link from the frame to the tranny to keep the worn part(s) from moving, but is this the proper way to address worn out parts? JMHO

[superglidesport1]

If one has to resort to alignment using fixtures and dial indicators, then IMHO manufacturing QC is deficient and the design is suspect.

Right on, Lets get back to Rocks and Clubs!

Could you please explain how you align the back end. I know about the adjustment up on the top of the front of the engine but don't know about the back.

You do the back by setting the front motor mount.

Max

All of this proves that the engineering and design of the bikes has been and continues to be deficient. In fact, using dial indicators and fixtures is tantamount to using rocks and clubs (your analogy).

The design, engineering and manufacturing of the vehicle should preclude any of this necessity. And yes, my comments are based upon having real world alignment and balancing experience working with many domestic and import vehicle manufacturers as well as most all tire manufacturers in a technical and troubleshooting capacity in a line manufacturing and test track environment.

By design, the drive unit (engine & transmission)  should bolt-in and be plumb, level and square within the frame without the need for x, y or z axis adjustments.

Frank

[Geezer_Glider]

Ah, you don't just bolt on car suspension or steering parts and drive down the street unless you want to scrub your tires away in a 100 miles. It takes some expensive equipment to align everything especially on something with 4 wheel independent suspension. This isn't to say the mother ship couldn't do a better job, but I'll agree that set up to spec they track very well for size and weight.
R Meyer

[superglidesport1]

Ah, you don't just bolt on car suspension or steering parts and drive down the street unless you want to scrub your tires away in a 100 miles. It takes some expensive equipment to align everything especially on something with 4 wheel independent suspension. This isn't to say the mother ship couldn't do a better job, but I'll agree that set up to spec they track very well for size and weight.
R Meyer

Agreed. But on a passenger vehicle or truck the alignment related adjustments are usually independent of drivetrain installation. Usually, but not always. HD's method of attaching the swingarm to the drivetrain, although not unique is not as well executed as other manufacturers. Another observation is that while the rear swingarm is located longitudinally by the pivot at the rear transmission case (touring models) it floats in many different directions due to the rubber / poly isolated rear supports and front mounts. This "floating" affects tracking or alignment under dynamic conditions (driving) and causes the many issues we complain about regardless of tire make, quality and condition. When the rear swingarm shifts due to side loading this causes the rear axle centerline to skew and the thrust angle changes. The front forks will then follow the thrust angle. The problem now becomes straight line braking, acceleration and handling stability. Anything that will restrict the driveline from skewing side to side will control thrust angle and improve stability under any conditions. This includes firmer replacement mounts, bushings or fixtures that limit driveline movement.

Frank

[FLTRI]

Superglide,
Fortunately for us FL bike owners you can't be correct in your assumption that the design simply can't/doesn't work properly.
The design works admirably well when the suspension pieces are correct and true (aligned properly).
Been riding these bikes (94' Ultra, 98 RG, 03 RG) for over 15 years way over their intended cornering speeds without these problems. How can that be if the problem is in the basic design and execution?
Some FL bikes ride perfect and some do not. If basic design was the issue, they all would exhibit the same handling problems, right? That just doesn't happen.
If a bike wobbles from day 1, I say there is a problem either with alignment or frame steering neck-to-swingarm perpendicularity, which must be trued by a qualified frame expert.
If a bike works fine when new and later starts exhibiting instability, you cannot simply state it is in the design and needs an add-on do-dad to hold the suspension together and in line.
As always, JMHO, Bob

[superglidesport1]

Superglide,
Fortunately for us FL bike owners you can't be correct in your assumption that the design simply can't/doesn't work properly.
The design works admirably well when the suspension pieces are correct and true (aligned properly).
Been riding these bikes (94' Ultra, 98 RG, 03 RG) for over 15 years way over their intended cornering speeds without these problems. How can that be if the problem is in the basic design and execution?
Some FL bikes ride perfect and some do not. If basic design was the issue, they all would exhibit the same handling problems, right? That just doesn't happen.
If a bike wobbles from day 1, I say there is a problem either with alignment or frame steering neck-to-swingarm perpendicularity, which must be trued by a qualified frame expert.
If a bike works fine when new and later starts exhibiting instability, you cannot simply state it is in the design and needs an add-on do-dad to hold the suspension together and in line.
As always, JMHO, Bob

Bob,

Yeah, I've been riding these rat traps as long or longer than you. I guess we're starting to show our age. Just because some do and some don't exhibit gross handling problems doesn't mean that the basic engineering design is sound. It's probably just good enough and that's been your only standard of comparison. Your description of the perfect riding bike is limited by your experience with this type of bike. The best riding stock HD touring bikes still handle like trucks compared to other competitive bikes in the same weight category. The handling problem has also been exacerbated by the fact that HD has had some challenges with QC and manufacturing over the years...........and this is fact. Not just IMHO.

Want to improve the handling characteristics of these pigs? Install wider tires and forged wheels (more contact patch and reduced wheel flex). New style (2009) rear shocks with improved design and higher operating pressures. Slightly heavier weight front shock oil for improved dampening and better adhesion. Lastly, reduce driveline movement by using improved / stiffer bushings and mounts or lateral stabilizer. I did and now have a great handling '07 RG.

[hotroadking]

OK if it's a bad design,
why do all brands have an issue with the wobbles.
Google wobble, speed wobble and any brand name and it will pop up BMW, Yamaha etc.

Here's proof that metric race bikes can wobble...

Pretty sure it's not the fault of the HD engineers..

The point being that there is a limit for all motorcycles by design what they can and cannot do,

I cannot corner as hard on my heritage as I can on the RG, the design limits this...

Weight constriction, tire patterns, alignment, part wear, proper maintenance, and plain old over driving the ability of the bike...

motorcycle wobble and crash

[superglidesport1]

Hotroadking,

Wobble due to drivetrain slop or setup and loss of control are two different issues. The issues and the video you are referring to may most likely involve loss of control or instability. During these conditions the visual wobble is usually a result of excessive speed affecting tire adhesion and / or lack of balance affecting stability. Tire inflation and condition are also possibilities.

The issues we are referring to usually occur at much slower speeds and typically nowhere near the limits of tire adhesion. Imbalance is usually not a contributing factor.

[hotroadking]

Exactly my point,

The video shows a professional rider in the Isle of Man TT at speed on a Metric bike designed to run 200 MPH.

Wobbles can occur for many reasons other than being simply an FL framed motorcycle.

My 09 was rock solid, then low speed wobbles occur the dealer thinks it's a loose fork nut (it wasn't) it was a bad designed 407B front tire, the wobbles got worse then at speed, as long as my hands were firm on the bars no problem

Replaced with new 408B - problem gone.

Nothing to do with the rear suspension (yes I'm aware it has a different frame) but still it was caused by a bad front tire.

Imbalance can occur at low speeds as it did with my front tire.

The point was that any make can experience a wobble and it can be for a myriad of reasons, and therefore no one solution fits all, a true-straight or Ride track may be a band aid for other problems that need repair and give someone a false sense of security to enter sweepers at higher speeds even though a defective or worn part is in need of service.

So back to my original thoughts for what little they may be worth...

RNR the rear check it all, replace worn parts
and be sure alignment is spot on before you dump $500 bucks in a bolt on doohickey..
or blame bad design...

[superglidesport1]

Exactly my point,

The video shows a professional rider in the Isle of Man TT at speed on a Metric bike designed to run 200 MPH.

Wobbles can occur for many reasons other than being simply and FL framed motorcycle.

My 09 was rock solid, then low speed wobbles occur the dealer thinks it's a loose fork nut (it wasn't) it was a bad designed 407B front tire, the wobbles got worse then at speed, as long as my hands were firm on the bars no problem

Replaced with new 408B - problem gone.

Nothing to do with the rear suspension (yes I'm aware it has a different frame) but still it was caused by a bad front tire.

Imbalance can occur at low speeds as it did with my front tire.

The point was that any make can experience a wobble and it can be for a myriad of reasons, and therefore no one solution fits all, a true-straight or Ride track may be a band aid for other problems that need repair and give someone a false sense of security to enter sweepers at higher speeds even though a defective or worn part is in need of service.

So back to my original thoughts for what little they may be worth...

RNR the rear check it all, replace worn parts and be sure alignment is spot on before you dump $500 bucks in a bolt on doohickey or blame bad design...

Your problem was not related to a balance issue. The cupping affected adhesion due to irregular wear and an inconsistent tread patch (not enough road surface consistent contact). The next thing to go was stability at high speed. You may also have had a non-balance related vibration at slower speeds.

Yes, many things can and will go wrong and ultimately they may affect stability and handing. We always check the obvious things first (tire tread, wear, condition, pressure and balance correction), then go into setup (alignment) and then look at mechanical wear, tear and even design deficiencies. In the case of the FL's, the older models (pre-'09) were born with a design deficiency.

[Admiral Akbar]

All of this proves that the engineering and design of the bikes has been and continues to be deficient. In fact, using dial indicators and fixtures is tantamount to using rocks and clubs (your analogy).

The design, engineering and manufacturing of the vehicle should preclude any of this necessity. And yes, my comments are based upon having real world alignment and balancing experience working with many domestic and import vehicle manufacturers as well as most all tire manufacturers in a technical and troubleshooting capacity in a line manufacturing and test track environment.

By design, the drive unit (engine & transmission)  should bolt-in and be plumb, level and square within the frame without the need for x, y or z axis adjustments.

Frank

Well.

Nothing wrong with using indicators to make measurements, still much better then a ruler when you want to check run out or play (the ruler would be rocks and clubs).. Along those same lines HD chose to remove the timkens and use a straight roller with spacers to set the end play.. Don't need to check.. It that a good thing?

It's all a balance between dimensional tolerances in production, cost to meet these limits and labor to assemble.. I'd be interested in anyone else that has a better system and please don't say "goldwing".   

Want to improve the handling characteristics of these pigs? Install wider tires and forged wheels (more contact patch and reduced wheel flex). New style (2009) rear shocks with improved design and higher operating pressures. Slightly heavier weight front shock oil for improved dampening and better adhesion. Lastly, reduce driveline movement by using improved / stiffer bushings and mounts or lateral stabilizer. I did and now have a great handling '07 RG.

Cast wheels are fine, so are aluminum rim spoked wheels. Used to think that the stock steel ones were stiff enough but I think they are flexing some.  Why blow bucks on the stabilizers when all it needs is a little work with an indicator..  This is kind of the difference between a parts replacer and a mechanic..

Max

[Big Dan]

My old girl went almost 100k before she had her first wobble. I take pretty good care of her. I had the first wobble this year, and it scared the living hell outta me. Bike felt like a dachshund dog with a hinge in the middle. I found the Progressive Touring Link for dirt cheap ($100), and my buddy Smitty had already installed one on his bike and liked it, so I bought it.

In the meantime, I found that my front motor mount had gone South. So bad, that the swingarm center pivot was way towards the back of the bike, as opposed to centered in the frame recesses. I aligned everything, fixed the motor mount, replaced the cups at the swingarm ends, and installed the Progressive deal. Honestly, I don't think she handles any better than she always has, save that one-time wobble; but again, I try and take pretty good care of her. I replaced the cleveblocks with spherical bearings a while back, and have replaced the cups a couple of times over the years.

So, did I waste my money on the Progressive piece? I don't think so. In my mind, it's cheap insurance against the same thing happening again, or some other oddball occurence. I guess I'd rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. I'll continue to maintain her as I always have, and should be good-ta-go.

[superglidesport1]

All of this proves that the engineering and design of the bikes has been and continues to be deficient. In fact, using dial indicators and fixtures is tantamount to using rocks and clubs (your analogy).

The design, engineering and manufacturing of the vehicle should preclude any of this necessity. And yes, my comments are based upon having real world alignment and balancing experience working with many domestic and import vehicle manufacturers as well as most all tire manufacturers in a technical and troubleshooting capacity in a line manufacturing and test track environment.

By design, the drive unit (engine & transmission)  should bolt-in and be plumb, level and square within the frame without the need for x, y or z axis adjustments.

Frank

Well.

Nothing wrong with using indicators to make measurements, still much better then a ruler when you want to check run out or play (the ruler would be rocks and clubs).. Along those same lines HD chose to remove the timkens and use a straight roller with spacers to set the end play.. Don't need to check.. It that a good thing?

It's all a balance between dimensional tolerances in production, cost to meet these limits and labor to assemble.. I'd be interested in anyone else that has a better system and please don't say "goldwing".  

Want to improve the handling characteristics of these pigs? Install wider tires and forged wheels (more contact patch and reduced wheel flex). New style (2009) rear shocks with improved design and higher operating pressures. Slightly heavier weight front shock oil for improved dampening and better adhesion. Lastly, reduce driveline movement by using improved / stiffer bushings and mounts or lateral stabilizer. I did and now have a great handling '07 RG.

Cast wheels are fine, so are aluminum rim spoked wheels. Used to think that the stock steel ones were stiff enough but I think they are flexing some.  Why blow bucks on the stabilizers when all it needs is a little work with an indicator..  This is kind of the difference between a parts replacer and a mechanic..

Max

I used to supply test equipment and consulting for tire and wheel manufacturers and have participated in and witnessed the differences between stamped steel, cast and forged aluminum wheels in automotive, aircraft, heavy truck and motorcycle applications. Wheel manufacturers test for speed, load, deformation, radial and lateral deflection and let me tell you this. There's nothing that's superior to a forged aluminum wheel in every category. Especially for a motorcycle where lateral forces are so much more prevalent and important to safety and handling. The downside to forged wheels is and has always been cost. You'd be surprized at how little force it takes to deform a wheel while in motion, especially cheap cast OEM wheels. Notice the new design of the '09 cast touring wheels? Lots of wide, closely spaced spokes. Is that for design or safety and handling? They handle lateral forces much better and are a huge improvement over the old cast wagon wheels. Improve handling as well.

As far as the timken tapered bearing VS roller bearing argument is concerned, my take is it was done for easier, faster and cheaper assembly. One bearing instead of two and no fitting is involved, although end play is not controlled by spacers as you mention. Spacers position the bearings on the rotating assembly pinion & sprocket shafts but the right side bearing depth in the case controls end play as the left side bearing is driven onto a shoulder in the case.

I've made a living in the automotive and transportation business for over 35 years and I agree with your opinion about the importance of diagnosing problems and not changing parts without good reason. That's why I've maintained ASE Master Tech Certification since 1972 and L1 Master Tech Certification since the early 90's in addition to my education in electrical, mechanical and industrial engineering as a youth. I've also been involved with EPA, OEM and state emission testing programs since the early 80's.

Last point, if there's nothing else wrong with the bike, the lateral side load stabilizers will take the remaining slop out of the FL drivelines and straighten out your ride.

[FLTRI]

Super.
"Especially for a motorcycle where lateral forces are so much more prevalent ". Please explain
Thanks,
Bob

[Admiral Akbar]

Bob,

I would agree as to why you question this.. If there are large lateral forces, wouldn't the bike stand up or fall over? I think the more appropriately you need to look at how the contact patch has created a load on that is off center from the middle of the tire. Since in most cases the force should be centered over the middle of the motorcycle when the motorcycle is leaned over the contact patch is off to the side and that center of force creates a torque on the rim / swingarm / frame.. Bumps can change that force and torque applied. If any part flexes or springs, you have the possibility of an oscillatory system..

FWIW, the old Dunlap K81s had a V shape that helped keep the offset to a minimum but limited the contact patch when going straight..

Max

(Red hope you are reading this..  )

[Reddog74usa]

Oh No Max, Did you loose yer FLOW 

[superglidesport1]

Super.
"Especially for a motorcycle where lateral forces are so much more prevalent ". Please explain
Thanks,
Bob

I'm going to try to keep this short and sweet as I have to catch a flight this AM. I steer my old JD tractor. The vehicle stays upright with a fairly perpendicular attitude with vertical center of gravity. The load on the tire and wheel assemblies is perpendicular to the groundplane and there are practically no lateral forces on the tires, wheels, spindles, axles, chassis or drivetrain.

Not so when riding a motorcycle. Many curves and turns are done using a combination of steering and leaning / cambering. In most cases, more camber (leaning over) than steering / turning the front forks. The upright attitude of the motorcycle changes drastically as it leans on turns. Gravity, momentum, speed, weight, grade and tire adhesion induce lateral forces directly through the tire and wheel assemblies. The tires absorb some of these forces but much of it transmits to the wheels and chassis, and in our FL's the driveline. The tires squirm, wheels flex, chassis and driveline move in response to these lateral forces. Less movement = firm and predictable handling. More movement = understeer, oversteer, snap oversteer, unpredictable miscellaneous steering effects, mushy inconsistent handling, loss of adhesion and on and on.

Anything you can do to reduce flex will improve handling and stability under these conditions. This includes better tires, more contact patch, stiffer wheels, more rigid chassis and driveline (upgraded shocks, bushings, additional or aftermarket stabilizers).

Relate to what the auto industry does to improve handling on the track, or what new car manufacturers are doing with tires and wheels, sport suspensions, struts, springs, shocks, sway bars and increased chassis or unibody rigidity / stiffness to improve handling. Less flex = better, safer, more predictable and linear handling.

Gotta go!