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Hydraulic Cam Chain Tensioners @ 94K

Started by Wood, July 10, 2019, 05:52:27 PM

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Wood

The basics:  2010 FLTRX, 94K miles, basically stock, ran dino and synthetic oils over the years. 

The problem:  With some major rides still ahead of me this summer and my bike hitting 94K, I decided to replace my original hydraulic cam chain tensioners with HD's current offering.   Of course, I talked myself into believing that these original tensioners were worn and that they were making the cam chest noisy. 

Action taken:  Replaced the tensioners with the current ones from HD.  I also changed out the oil pump for a Screamin Eagle one in order to increase my oil volume.   I bypassed changing out the cams, cam bearings, cam chains and cam plate since all looked to be in good condition, and more importantly to keep my costs down. 

The tensioners were clearly worn as shown in the pictures below, sorry for the fuzzy pictures but you get the idea.   What surprised me was that the material that the original tensioners were made out of appears to be chipping/flacking away.   Hard to determine if the shoes wear has ceased, was on-going, or was just beginning.  Outside and inside tensioners displayed similar wear patterns.   Would the tensioners of lasted another 10K, 20K, or 50K, possibly, but not sure.  Nonetheless I'm very happy that I replaced them. 

The results:  The cam chest now seems to be quieter; not sure if this is because of the new tensioners, new SE oil pump or by talking myself into believing it is quieter. 

The only thing I know for sure is that my oil pressure increased by about 2 – 4 PSI across all temperature and RPM ranges.

Wood

CVOThunder

Photons by the bag. Gravitons not  shipped outside the US.

smoserx1

IMO that does not look too bad for 94K.  You sure wouldn't get the old style to look that good after that much distance.  I have conversion cams in my 99 FLHT and have about 50K on the setup now.  I might replace them in a year or so.  Are the new tensioners any different?

CndUltra88

Quote from: Wood on July 10, 2019, 05:52:27 PM
The basics:  2010 FLTRX, 94K miles, basically stock, ran dino and synthetic oils over the years. 

The problem:  With some major rides still ahead of me this summer and my bike hitting 94K, I decided to replace my original hydraulic cam chain tensioners with HD's current offering.   Of course, I talked myself into believing that these original tensioners were worn and that they were making the cam chest noisy. 

Action taken:  Replaced the tensioners with the current ones from HD.  I also changed out the oil pump for a Screamin Eagle one in order to increase my oil volume.   I bypassed changing out the cams, cam bearings, cam chains and cam plate since all looked to be in good condition, and more importantly to keep my costs down. 

The tensioners were clearly worn as shown in the pictures below, sorry for the fuzzy pictures but you get the idea.   What surprised me was that the material that the original tensioners were made out of appears to be chipping/flacking away.   Hard to determine if the shoes wear has ceased, was on-going, or was just beginning.  Outside and inside tensioners displayed similar wear patterns.   Would the tensioners of lasted another 10K, 20K, or 50K, possibly, but not sure.  Nonetheless I'm very happy that I replaced them. 

The results:  The cam chest now seems to be quieter; not sure if this is because of the new tensioners, new SE oil pump or by talking myself into believing it is quieter. 

The only thing I know for sure is that my oil pressure increased by about 2 – 4 PSI across all temperature and RPM ranges.
.

I think the proof is in the pudding in that you found an issue.
Replaced/corrected said issue and now talked yourself into all of the positives that go along with those remedies.
Peace of mind goes a long way.
Have you cut open any of the oil filters to inspect the media for larg particles??
The pictures speak volumes .
Rob
Infantryman Terry Street
End of Tour April,4,2008 Panjwayi district Afghanistan

Wood

The new tensioner shoe material is different, white plastic of some type; see picture below.

Didn't cut open the oil filter looking for tensioner pieces as there was no catastrophic event within the cam chest; the bike was still running fine. To me this was a simple maintenance item who's time has come.
Wood

Justpassingas

Now you have me wondering ...I'm at 90k on my 09SG and only thing done to the motor was a new cam bearing,Andrews cams with adjustable pushrods @ 15k...knock on wood... no issues
For Duty and Humanity

IronButt70

July 11, 2019, 07:19:48 AM #6 Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 07:59:00 AM by IronButt70
I recently changed out the OEM tensioners when I changed cams on my 17 FLSTC at 39k and they were white. The inner was about 10% worn, the outer almost no wear showing. I replaced them with a set from Fueling that were red. Guess the color doesn't matter but I would think red chips/flakes would be easier to spot and I also had a 2-4 PSI increase in oil pressure after the work. Will be checking them again at 50k just for piece of mind. And from the FWIW dept. I would also take a look at your wheel bearings with that many miles. I'm maintenance OCD and change mine every 25k.
No one else put you on the road you're on. It's your own asphalt.

koko3052

Quote from: IronButt70 on July 11, 2019, 07:19:48 AM
I recently changed out the OEM tensioners when I changed cams on my 17 FLSTC at 39k and they were white. The inner was about 10% worn, the outer almost no wear showing. I replaced them with a set from Fueling that were red. Guess the color doesn't matter but I would think red chips/flakes would be easier to spot. Will be checking them at 50k just for piece of mind. And from the FWIW dept. I would also take a look at your wheel bearings with that many miles. I'm maintenance OCD and change mine every 25k.


And what exactly is it that you're finding at 25K? Post some pics, I'm sure we would all like to see.  :scratch:

Hossamania

I'm pretty sure my rear wheel bearings have over 100,000 miles on them, fronts too, I don't remember ever changing them. Still have the original spokes too, 19 years, coming on 115,000 miles.
Not bragging, just saying.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

IronButt70

July 11, 2019, 08:08:32 AM #9 Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 09:34:00 AM by IronButt70
Quote from: koko3052 on July 11, 2019, 07:58:23 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on July 11, 2019, 07:19:48 AM
I recently changed out the OEM tensioners when I changed cams on my 17 FLSTC at 39k and they were white. The inner was about 10% worn, the outer almost no wear showing. I replaced them with a set from Fueling that were red. Guess the color doesn't matter but I would think red chips/flakes would be easier to spot. Will be checking them at 50k just for piece of mind. And from the FWIW dept. I would also take a look at your wheel bearings with that many miles. I'm maintenance OCD and change mine every 25k.


And what exactly is it that you're finding at 25K? Post some pics, I'm sure we would all like to see.  :scratch:
Didn't say I was finding anything but after a friend of mine had a rear wheel bearing fail at 14k a long way from home changing them at 25k is part of my routine PM. Like I said, maintenance OCD.
No one else put you on the road you're on. It's your own asphalt.

Don D

All this and not a peep about lifters?

remington007

08 up 25mm wheel bearings have a high failure rate. I have replaced some under 10K miles. 02 to 07 is a more robust bearing.

IronButt70

No one else put you on the road you're on. It's your own asphalt.

Hossamania

Quote from: IronButt70 on July 11, 2019, 09:32:18 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 11, 2019, 09:26:19 AM
All this and not a peep about lifters?
:agree: Good call.

And no new cam bearings. I would have included those on the very first list of parts.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

koko3052

Quote from: IronButt70 on July 11, 2019, 08:08:32 AM
Quote from: koko3052 on July 11, 2019, 07:58:23 AM
Quote from: IronButt70 on July 11, 2019, 07:19:48 AM
I recently changed out the OEM tensioners when I changed cams on my 17 FLSTC at 39k and they were white. The inner was about 10% worn, the outer almost no wear showing. I replaced them with a set from Fueling that were red. Guess the color doesn't matter but I would think red chips/flakes would be easier to spot. Will be checking them at 50k just for piece of mind. And from the FWIW dept. I would also take a look at your wheel bearings with that many miles. I'm maintenance OCD and change mine every 25k.




And what exactly is it that you're finding at 25K? Post some pics, I'm sure we would all like to see.  :scratch:
Didn't say I was finding anything but after a friend of mine had a rear wheel bearing fail at 14k a long way from home changing them at 25k is part of my routine PM. Like I said, maintenance OCD.

Sorry, I was under the impression that you were changing cam tensioners at 25K.  :doh:

Scotty

Quote from: Wood on July 11, 2019, 06:12:45 AM
The new tensioner shoe material is different, white plastic of some type; see picture below.

I think you will find that they all start whiteish and turn brown with heat & oil.

Karl H.

I'm pretty sure a roller chain tensioner must wear in that way. When the rollers contact the tensioner surface the wear stops imho.

[attach=0]
Dyna Wide Glide '03, Softail Deluxe '13, Street Glide '14, Sportster 883R '15

Justpassingas

Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 11, 2019, 09:26:19 AM
All this and not a peep about lifters?

FWIW....I'm at 90k 09SG on original lifters and compensator too...wheel bearings front & rear were changed out at around 60k though
For Duty and Humanity

BVHOG

Those look pretty much like every other tensioner I have seen with substantial miles on it. The failures I have seen was a circular crack where the piston pushes it out. Inner bearings should have been replaced!!!! along with the lifters. All that work and the reality is you have no more reliability than before you started.
If you don't have a sense of humor you probably have no sense at all.

kd

 :agree:   At that mileage and already in the cam chest, the cam bearings are a no-brainer for most.  Did you price them and see how cheap they actually are?   
KD

Wood

July 12, 2019, 07:48:13 AM #20 Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 08:32:52 AM by Wood
I would agree that what we see in the pictures is probably typical for the mileage. The only problem I have is with the flaking/chipping/pitting of the shoe material in the grooves where the chain 'links' ride-in and made over the years. 

As others have noted, where the chain 'roller' rides there is no visible wear.

I did the lifters, I even have an oversized Fueling lifter in one of the holes.  If I had easy access to the cam bearing puller/install tool I probably would of done same. 

Cost is a big factor here.  I have put way more money into this Twin Cam than my Shovel.   
.
Wood

Hossamania

If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Wood

Quote from: Hossamania on July 12, 2019, 10:35:21 AM
How many miles on your shovel?

LOL 

Bought my 1975 FXE in 1976 for $2,600. Rode the Shovel for 34 years; been coast to coast on it multiple times, and all over the West/Mid-West, with and w/o a squeeze on the back; great memories. 

I did a few valve jobs, ring sets, and punched it out twice. Had the cases split once for rod bearings and a fresh top end.  Only went into the trany once to see how things were wearing. I also added a CV carb, primary belt drive and electronic ignition.

When I picked up the 2010 Twinkie in 2011, the Shovel was moved to the back burner where she sits patiently today.

Odometer(s) were not on my priority list, so when they broke they stayed broke which was the norm.  Can't give you a mileage number, only the years rode.
Wood

Mirrmu

How deep are the grooves? That's the service issue

smoserx1

The grooves don't look very deep to me and what wear there is seems to be evenly distributed across the faces of both tensioners.  One of the problems with the old spring loaded tensioners was  uneven wear.  I guess it was the cantilever effect of the way they were mounted but one side would wear down and then the shoe would crack, come off the pin and after that you had metal to metal contact still with the pressure from the spring.  I did conversion cams about 50K ago and so this post is very comforting to me.  These shoes do start out as white and apparently change to a darker color with age.  I have seen a few pics of black ones as well; don't know if the actual material is any different.  And for the inner bearings, while I would have changed them, I haven't heard of the 1 inch/168 size having problems like the older 148 size did, so maybe leaving them alone was not too bad.

hd06myway


hd06myway

Proof the old tensioners do hold up and the failures were a small % of riders ...

petebob

August 23, 2019, 11:12:29 PM #27 Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 05:26:20 AM by rigidthumper
Old Bob has turned 150,000km old this month, so it's time to give him a birthday. The last one he had was in 2014 when he turned 75,000. That entailed an upgrade to an SE 103 stage 3 kit, with SE cam plate & oil pump thrown in for good measure. Research and experience has told me that the cam chain tensioner pads in these post '06 twin cams are good for about 80,000km, give or take - that's the reason for the birthday. Anyway, dropped it of with Bryan at Farrows Customs for him to deal with. Went in to see him after he'd stripped it down. To be honest, I wasn't sure what to expect. We've all heard the stories of scissored cranks, self destructing cam chests etc. Long story short.. crank run-out well within limits at 7 thou. Tensioner pads pretty much rooted (as expected), lifters good, cams starting to lose hardening on one lobe of the front cam and the others starting to show signs. Also some slight making on the cam plate made by the gerotor of the oil pump. Rockers, pushrods - perfect. Compression 200psi front and rear. So, things to do......

Cam chain tensioners..going with S&S ones, good for 100,000km supposedly.
Lifters... Fueling - just as good as S&S but not as costly.
Inner cam bearings - unsure of replacement brand, but not stock HD.
Cam chains...Fueling - again, S&S quality without the cost.
Cams...the 103 stage 3 kit comes with SE 259e cams which I have been running and actually quite like. They lack a little bit down low, but get them in the band and they pull real hard to the limiter. On Bryans advice  (he's an HD trained tech, so has seen a lot of how the SE quality has gone down over recent years), we've decided to go with S&S 585 cams. It's the same cam they put with their 106 kits, it'll handle the 10.5:1 compression no worries. 5 thou less lift and closes a little earlier, but should be fine.
Had hoped to have everything back together on Friday, but Rollies messed it up and sent pre-06 cam chains. Only got the right ones today, so hopefully will have the old boy back tomorrow. Looking forward to seeing if i can tell any difference with these cams. I somehow doubt it.
Anyway, I just thought I'd share a little story about a high mileage bike. Bryan said that if I only did 5000km a year he would've told me just to replace the tensioners and bearings and it would last another 10 years.
Goes to show the bad press about Harley is all bullshit. I'll let yas know how it all turns out.

Scotty

Quote from: petebob on August 23, 2019, 11:12:29 PM
Goes to show the bad press about Harley is all bullshit.

It's not all bullshit you would have to be naive to think that.
Yes some is blown up out of proportion to the number of bikes made and sold and some are correct and do present problems.
Seen plenty of high mileage Harleys with little to no issues and seen plenty of low mileage ones with problems.
Roll of the dice sometimes.

PoorUB

Quote from: petebob on August 23, 2019, 11:12:29 PM
Goes to show the bad press about Harley is all bullshit. I'll let yas know how it all turns out.


I had to laugh!

You did a major rebuild, less the lower end at 75,000KM or 46,000 miles, and now at 150,000KM, or 93,000 miles you are replacing everything in the cam chest again? Doesn't seem like something to brag about. Great that the crank is still in one piece, but  would not brag about .007" run out either. Ten years ago guys would have had it rebuilt with less run out. .007 is a lot of run out, .002 or less is good, but Harley found it easier to loosen the tolerance than to improve manufacturing process. Luckily the larger run out has been working for them. The last Twin Cams I had a part had .004"-.005" run out and I was not happy with it, but ran them.

Today with the technology available an engine should run 150,000 miles with nothing more than oil changes and minor repairs. Plus we shouldn't have to put in big bore kits and cams to get acceptable performance.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

petebob

Glad I gave u something to laugh about. I didn't realise I was bragging. I was trying to contribute a little extra to the original post.
(Some of) You guys obviously do a lot more miles per year than we do. I guess I was just trying to say  that I'm happy with my bike. I was interested in the comment about replacing "everything in the cam chest again". It was pulled down to replace tensioner pads that were due to be done. They mayve done another 10000km (6300 miles) but I made the call. So while the cam chest was apart, we decide to change out parts that were showing signs of wear. The worst of those being the cams. So. Not gunna run old lifters on a new set of cams. Replace lifters. Cam chains are cheap, might as well replace them. Inner bearings etc all come with the kit. Why skimp on this stuff and just have to pull It all down again in another year or two? As far as I can see, I've got many more years of riding left in old Bob before I have to spend any more dollars.
As for the statement shouldn't have to pay for cams etc to get performance...we dont do it because we have to, we do it because we want to. Thats like saying we shouldnt bolt a 671 blower on top of a 327 chev. No, it doesn't need it, but it sure is fun.