This Does Not Sound Good--Lifter Failing?

[ScottFree]

About the last 1500 miles of my trip out west, I noticed my '04 Road King was making a hellacious clattering when first started on a cool mountain morning. It would quiet down after a minute or two. This morning I went out to the garage and attempted to record the sounds, before and after. Here's a video on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42t-WrPT1cE

Before the fade: cold, starts up, top end clattering. Unfortunately, YouTube seems to have "corrected" the audio so that the clattering's nowhere near as loud or distinct as it was in the original phone camera video. During the fade-out, I rode the bike around the block, maybe two minutes. By the time I got back, as you can hear in the after-the-fade section, it's quieted down. There is still some primary noise (40K since the last time it needed an adjustment, so not a big deal), but the sharp metal-hitting-metal sound that it made right after starting is gone.

This is the way it behaved the last six or seven days of my trip. First thing in the morning, clatter-clatter-clatter that went away after two or three minutes. Repeat next morning.

Am I correct in thinking I've got a lifter that's draining down overnight and taking a long time to pump up when the bike's first started in the morning? And am I also correct in thinking I need to identify and replace the bad lifter before it gets worse?

Few more details: aside from a 95" Stage 2 kit (mufflers, airbox, SE203 cam) and SE hydraulic-tensioner cam plate, the bike is bone stock. Lifters were replaced about 10K miles ago, when I had the SE cam plate installed. I was having no lifter-related problems at the time, just figured that since the bike had 56K on the original parts and we were going into the cam chest anyway, might as well replace them as preventive maintenance. Then, I told myself, I wouldn't have to worry about anything in the cam chest or top end till the bike was over 100K miles. Yeah, right...

[Geezer_Glider]

Could also be carbon build up on pistons and/or head. How did you tune after cam and bore? What head gasket thickness? What lifters? Just a thought.
R Meyer

[ScottFree]

The Stage 2/95" kit was installed by the first owner of the bike, a good 50K miles ago. Far as I know it is the plain Harley kit: cams, air cleaner, mufflers, pistons, jugs, no changes to heads or compression ratio. I know it's mild enough that it runs just fine on 87 octane regular (good thing, since I had to cross Nebraska and Iowa). More important, nothing's changed in the five years and 50K miles that I've owned the bike... except that I had the cam drive upgraded and the lifters replaced.

I looked at some other Harley sites, and apparently a fair number of people have had this problem occur and then go away after an oil change. Theory is, they cooked the oil and thinned it out so that one or more lifters would bleed down overnight. Never had this happen before, but... I did ride across the Utah desert in 100 degree weather at around 80 mph during this trip. And I don't have an oil cooler. Still hard to believe that was too much for Mobil 1 20W50, but it can't hurt to change the oil and see what happens. Just gotta reach some resolution--is it OK, or does it have to go to the shop--before next Tuesday, when I'm getting surgery on my elbow and will probably be off-bike for the next month.

[lilchief]

It definitely sounds like a lifter, unless by chance you've got some piston slap going on. 

Lil Chief

[hattitude]

Few more details: aside from a 95" Stage 2 kit (mufflers, airbox, SE203 cam) and SE hydraulic-tensioner cam plate, the bike is bone stock. Lifters were replaced about 10K miles ago, when I had the SE cam plate installed. I was having no lifter-related problems at the time, just figured that since the bike had 56K on the original parts and we were going into the cam chest anyway, might as well replace them as preventive maintenance. Then, I told myself, I wouldn't have to worry about anything in the cam chest or top end till the bike was over 100K miles. Yeah, right...

What year was the cam plate upgrade done? Did they put in new HD lifters....?

Your '04 came with the Harley "B" lifters. They have done well over the years. If you changed your lifters after late 2011, and used new HD lifters... you most certainly have the HD "C" lifters... considered a maintenance item by some, and absolute junk by others... A bike with HD "C" lifters having problems in just 10K miles, while not an everyday occurrence, is not rare either...

[ScottFree]

Damn. So I spent good money to throw away parts that would probably have lasted the life of the bike, and replace them with disposable junk. Does the "C" stand for "Chinese," by any chance?

Any recommendations on lifters that won't have to be replaced again next year? I bought this bike to ride it, not to constantly work on it.

I want my Evo back. 

(further rants about Harley's declining quality will be posted in Earl's Place)

[Rockout Rocker Products]

Damn. So I spent good money to throw away parts that would probably have lasted the life of the bike, and replace them with disposable junk. Does the "C" stand for "Chinese," by any chance?

Any recommendations on lifters that won't have to be replaced again next year? I bought this bike to ride it, not to constantly work on it.

I want my Evo back. 

(further rants about Harley's declining quality will be posted in Earl's Place)

Johnson Hy-Lifts from WFOLarry  http://www.larrysmotorcyclemachine.com/lifters.html 

[les]

Could also be carbon build up on pistons and/or head. How did you tune after cam and bore? What head gasket thickness? What lifters? Just a thought.
R Meyer

To test for this, perform this process...

Run the bike until the engine is hot and the sound has gone away.  Don't be shy about getting the engine fully hot.  Shut the bike down in your driveway and use a garden hose on mist spray.  Gradually cool the engine with the mist water, not too fast as to hurt the engine but fast enough to cool it over about a 10 minute period.  You can change the hose to the shower setting after the engine gets to where it's not burning hot.  Get the engine to near cold (by a feel on the cylinders).  Start the engine and see if it makes that bad sound.

10 minutes should be short enough for the lifters to not bleed down, but with the rapid cooling the crank rod will still be hot (lengthened) but the cylinders will be quick-cold and shorten up enough for a potential carbon knock to happen.

If this test makes the noise, your crank bearings have been beaten and could be on the way to destruction.  This happened to my stock RK twin cam at around 55K miles, with the noise starting round 20K miles on the engine (before I discovered what was happening).  I changed lifters three times, not solving the problem.

Also, look at your oil drain plug.  If there are any metal slivers, this could mean that the flywheel bearings are chewing the rod.

[FXDBI]

Could also be carbon build up on pistons and/or head. How did you tune after cam and bore? What head gasket thickness? What lifters? Just a thought.
R Meyer

To test for this, perform this process...

Run the bike until the engine is hot and the sound has gone away.  Don't be shy about getting the engine fully hot.  Shut the bike down in your driveway and use a garden hose on mist spray.  Gradually cool the engine with the mist water, not too fast as to hurt the engine but fast enough to cool it over about a 10 minute period.  You can change the hose to the shower setting after the engine gets to where it's not burning hot.  Get the engine to near cold (by a feel on the cylinders).  Start the engine and see if it makes that bad sound.

10 minutes should be short enough for the lifters to not bleed down, but with the rapid cooling the crank rod will still be hot (lengthened) but the cylinders will be quick-cold and shorten up enough for a potential carbon knock to happen.

If this test makes the noise, your crank bearings have been beaten and could be on the way to destruction.  This happened to my stock RK twin cam at around 55K miles, with the noise starting round 20K miles on the engine (before I discovered what was happening).  I changed lifters three times, not solving the problem.

Also, look at your oil drain plug.  If there are any metal slivers, this could mean that the flywheel bearings are chewing the rod.

  Taking a water hose to a hot air cooled engine is a recipe for disaster. To the OP you need to get in there and look the longer you run with that noise the more damage is being done. Sounds awful I would never run a engine sounding like that let alone ride the bike.   Bob

[les]

Could also be carbon build up on pistons and/or head. How did you tune after cam and bore? What head gasket thickness? What lifters? Just a thought.
R Meyer

To test for this, perform this process...

Run the bike until the engine is hot and the sound has gone away.  Don't be shy about getting the engine fully hot.  Shut the bike down in your driveway and use a garden hose on mist spray.  Gradually cool the engine with the mist water, not too fast as to hurt the engine but fast enough to cool it over about a 10 minute period.  You can change the hose to the shower setting after the engine gets to where it's not burning hot.  Get the engine to near cold (by a feel on the cylinders).  Start the engine and see if it makes that bad sound.

10 minutes should be short enough for the lifters to not bleed down, but with the rapid cooling the crank rod will still be hot (lengthened) but the cylinders will be quick-cold and shorten up enough for a potential carbon knock to happen.

If this test makes the noise, your crank bearings have been beaten and could be on the way to destruction.  This happened to my stock RK twin cam at around 55K miles, with the noise starting round 20K miles on the engine (before I discovered what was happening).  I changed lifters three times, not solving the problem.

Also, look at your oil drain plug.  If there are any metal slivers, this could mean that the flywheel bearings are chewing the rod.

  Taking a water hose to a hot air cooled engine is a recipe for disaster. To the OP you need to get in there and look the longer you run with that noise the more damage is being done. Sounds awful I would never run a engine sounding like that let alone ride the bike.   Bob

Please explain why this is a recipe for disaster when you are gradually cooling the engine down with a mist of water?  Tell me what your first hand experience is with this, because I can demonstrate mine.

[ScottFree]

Well, the plot, or at least the oil, thickens...

Rode the bike about 15 miles yesterday afternoon. As on the trip, it quieted down (at least the clattering stopped) after it was warmed up. Just beat the rain into the driveway. Let it idle for a couple minutes before checking oil level (carefully, by the "hot" procedure in the manual). It came in just above the "add 1 quart" mark, so down a little but not desperately low. EDIT: looked at the magnetic drain plug. Nothing on it but a very small amount of very, very fine black material--in other words, same as every oil change. The oil itself was darker in color, like maple syrup, but not otherwise discolored. Kinda wish I'd saved a sample and sent it off to be analyzed (now it's in my recycle container, mixed in with the last three changes, so a sample would be meaningless).

Drained the oil, replaced it with Valvoline 20W50 dino oil, simply because that's what I had around. Ran the bike a few more minutes to make sure all the valve train bits had been properly soaked with the new oil. Let it sit overnight.

This morning, started it up. No clattering. Took it for a ride, and at stops I listened. Quieter than it was the last half of the trip. Ended up going 90 miles, bike was still nice and quiet. Pulled in, checked level according to the "hot" procedure, topped it off to the "hot fill" mark.

So, at least for now, my working hypothesis is that I managed to cook the oil by running sustained highway speeds (65-80) in 100 degree heat without an oil cooler. Looked at Google Maps, and it appears Wednesday's run from Huntington UT to Fruita CO was close to 200 miles (I took the long way so I could ride west-to-east through the San Rafael Reef). Ugh. Maybe there are conditions even Mobil 1 can't handle. Time will tell... and maybe I'll buy an oil cooler.

Meantime, the comments that the "C" lifters are disposable junk still makes me wonder whether I should replace them over the winter, just to avoid exchanging one time bomb (the spring loaded tensioners) for another (lifters). Doesn't look like that hard of a job. Might be the perfect way to get my feet wet on Twinkie work.

[FXDBI]

Could also be carbon build up on pistons and/or head. How did you tune after cam and bore? What head gasket thickness? What lifters? Just a thought.
R Meyer

Run the bike until the engine is hot and the sound has gone away.  Don't be shy about getting the engine fully hot.  Shut the bike down in your driveway and use a garden hose on mist spray.  Gradually cool the engine with the mist water, not too fast as to hurt the engine but fast enough to cool it over about a 10 minute period.  You can change the hose to the shower setting after the engine gets to where it's not burning hot.  Get the engine to near cold (by a feel on the cylinders).  Start the engine and see if it makes that bad sound.

10 minutes should be short enough for the lifters to not bleed down, but with the rapid cooling the crank rod will still be hot (lengthened) but the cylinders will be quick-cold and shorten up enough for a potential carbon knock to happen.

If this test makes the noise, your crank bearings have been beaten and could be on the way to destruction.  This happened to my stock RK twin cam at around 55K miles, with the noise starting round 20K miles on the engine (before I discovered what was happening).  I changed lifters three times, not solving the problem.

Also, look at your oil drain plug.  If there are any metal slivers, this could mean that the flywheel bearings are chewing the rod.

  Taking a water hose to a hot air cooled engine is a recipe for disaster. To the OP you need to get in there and look the longer you run with that noise the more damage is being done. Sounds awful I would never run a engine sounding like that let alone ride the bike.   Bob

Please explain why this is a recipe for disaster when you are gradually cooling the engine down with a mist of water?  Tell me what your first hand experience is with this, because I can demonstrate mine.

40+ years of being a millwright fixing rotating equipment has a occupation tells me this is just wrong and a bad practise, rapid cooling any engine from the outside can score cylinder walls. Because you did it and got away with it once doesn't mean its a acceptable practice. Might be to you but suggesting people do this invites some one with less savvy than you to do damage.  Never mind all the hot steam under the tank looking for places to get in.  Do has you like its your bike!  Will not be happening on mine and I will strongly suggest others don't adopt this practice.  I fix machinery for a living not for a hobby.   Bob

[hattitude]

Meantime, the comments that the "C" lifters are disposable junk still makes me wonder whether I should replace them over the winter, just to avoid exchanging one time bomb (the spring loaded tensioners) for another (lifters). Doesn't look like that hard of a job. Might be the perfect way to get my feet wet on Twinkie work.

There are others on this forum way more experienced than I am, who can talk more intelligently about the urgency of changing the "C"  lifters....

For my part, I've owned two twin cam bikes with the "C" lifters... (by the way, "C" is just the suffix on the part number, it doesn't mean made in china). I didn't go into the cam chest just to replace the lifters, but when I go into the cam chest, the OEM lifters and the OEM, INA brand,  inner cam bearings, are always switched out. I go with the Koyo-Torrington bearings and Johnson Hylift lifters, from WFO Larry. I even have two twin cams with "B" lifters, and I replaced them too, when I went into the cam chest to upgrade the spring tensioners... but I used Johnson Hylift, not newer HD lifters.. 

I have the "sickness", so it usually doesn't take too long before I'm opening the cam chest of my bikes.... so the INA brand bearings and HD lifters get changed sooner than later.

The cam chest of a twin cam is pretty basic stuff. Get a service manual, read it, and there are a couple videos that show a complete cam change (one by S&S). Once you do it, it will take away the "mystique" and it's no longer intimidating.....

Good luck with your fix....

[xlfan]

Replace OEM inner cam bearings with full complement needle bearings  are a must.

I have often wondered if folks always replace cam ball bearings EVERY time cams have been disassembled from camplate. 

[rigidthumper]

Yep- every time cams came out of anything 99-06 I was working on, new bearings went in.

[ScottFree]

Inner cam bearings were replaced with Torringtons back when the big-bore kit and SE203 cams were installed at 10K miles (by previous owner; I have his receipt). Cam plate bearings were replaced last winter when the SE hydraulic tensioner cam plate went in. So no worries about stuff inside the cam chest. Looks like lifters can be replaced with nothing more complex than rocker box R&R, pulling pushrods and covers, and removing what used to be called lifter blocks--no need to actually open up the cam chest cover. Sounds like a not-too-hard first foray into the Twinkie motor. No special tools, right?

Re the side discussion: never intentionally sprayed a hot engine with a hose, but on many, many occasions I've hit gully-washer downpours (including splashing through standing water) with engines at running temperature. Not to mention that in the ADV world, people routinely ride their air-cooled bikes through streams that partially or completely immerse the motor. So it would seem to me that the manufacturers would take this into account and design the engines to withstand such thermal stress. Just my $.02...

[Hossamania]

Adjustable push rods may have been used when the cam was installed, making it even easier to service the lifters, no need to remove the rocker boxes.
Easy enough to find out, just lift the push rod tube and check the rod.

[lilchief]

To add to Hoss' post, make sure to keep your pushrods in order, as in which hole they came out of, and put them back in the same place they came out of.

Lil Chief

[jamminhd2000]

Inner cam bearings were replaced with Torringtons back when the big-bore kit and SE203 cams were installed at 10K miles (by previous owner; I have his receipt). Cam plate bearings were replaced last winter when the SE hydraulic tensioner cam plate went in. So no worries about stuff inside the cam chest. Looks like lifters can be replaced with nothing more complex than rocker box R&R, pulling pushrods and covers, and removing what used to be called lifter blocks--no need to actually open up the cam chest cover. Sounds like a not-too-hard first foray into the Twinkie motor. No special tools, right?

Re the side discussion: never intentionally sprayed a hot engine with a hose, but on many, many occasions I've hit gully-washer downpours (including splashing through standing water) with engines at running temperature. Not to mention that in the ADV world, people routinely ride their air-cooled bikes through streams that partially or completely immerse the motor. So it would seem to me that the manufacturers would take this into account and design the engines to withstand such thermal stress. Just my $.02...

A service manual for your year and model would be very helpful if it is read and used....it will give you tips like making sure that cylinder being worked on is at tdc and to wait for lifters to bleed down and pushrods to spin before moving on to the next cylinder for stock pushrods....if adjustable pushrods are used follow instructions that come with them....I have seen so many times a "simple" procedure turns into way bigger problems due to lack of info....jimmy

[egstandard]

Exact same scenario happened to me on my 10,000 mile trip in july/august. Would clatter for about 2 blocks in the morning and quiet down. This was after I had about 6,000 miles on Mobil 1 running in some hellacious heat some days. Changed the oil in Sturgis, and the clatter went away for about 1500 miles. Then came back. When I got home, I got some lifters from Larry, installed them, and now it's quiet as hell.

[ScottFree]

A service manual for your year and model would be very helpful if it is read and used....it will give you tips like making sure that cylinder being worked on is at tdc and to wait for lifters to bleed down and pushrods to spin before moving on to the next cylinder for stock pushrods....if adjustable pushrods are used follow instructions that come with them....I have seen so many times a "simple" procedure turns into way bigger problems due to lack of info....jimmy

First thing I bought after bringing the bike home five years ago. I damn near wore out my '84-93 FXR/FLT manual when I had my Evos. I don't particularly like the organization of the newer manuals--too hyper-texty for dead tree media; it's like they were planning to put it on a tablet with hotlinks between sections and then ran out of time. Haven't done as much work on the Road King. Maybe I'm getting older of the bike's more complex, not sure. About all I've done so far (aside from routine maintenance) is tear down the front end to install the Progressive Monotubes, and replace the clutch spring. Thought about replacing the clutch cable myself (an easy job on the Evos), but when I saw that I'd have to pull the exhaust system to reach that last bolt, I said I'm sick of exhaust jobs and had a shop do it. For what I paid in labor, I probably could have bought and installed a Fullsac True Dual kit and done away with that damn descending pipe entirely...

Exact same scenario happened to me on my 10,000 mile trip in july/august. Would clatter for about 2 blocks in the morning and quiet down. This was after I had about 6,000 miles on Mobil 1 running in some hellacious heat some days. Changed the oil in Sturgis, and the clatter went away for about 1500 miles. Then came back. When I got home, I got some lifters from Larry, installed them, and now it's quiet as hell.

Aha. Good to know. This inclines me more toward replacing lifters in the spring. There's a month or two in there where it's warm enough to work comfortably in the garage, but too wet outside to have much fun riding. Sounds like the perfect time.

Hoss, the pushrods are stock. I know that because the shop offered me the choice of pulling rocker boxes and keeping stock pushrods, or going with adjustables. Same price, just faster turnaround with adjustables. Since I was going to be out of commission for a couple months (went in for hip replacement a few days after dropping the bike at the shop), and I wanted them to install rocker-shaft locking devices anyway, I went with stock pushrods.

[ScottFree]

Just a bump to report updated information. Two things: first, the valve train remains reasonably quiet, probably no noisier than any other Twinkie motor. Most of the time I can't hear any valve noise over the (quiet enough to be legal in 49 states) "touring" mufflers and the wind around my helmet. Second, I checked with the indy shop that did the cam plate upgrade over the winter, and being an indy shop they did not use "genuine" Harley lifters. They checked the invoice, and they used Feulings, as they typically do. So, it would appear I probably don't have a problem with crummy Harley "C" lifters after all. Should have realized an indy shop would not install "genuine Harley" stuff unless there was no alternative or I specifically asked for it. D'oh! I'm blaming it on the drugs I was taking after my hip replacement...

[Rsw]

So you think genuine Harley lifters are better than aftermarket ones??

[ScottFree]

So you think genuine Harley lifters are better than aftermarket ones??

Just the opposite. I was worried when I thought I had the "Genuine" parts.