Camplate Failure

[Thermodyne]

Had a noise in the scooter over the weekend.  Began with a short little tappet rattle on cold start.  The turned into a non rhythmic chirpy rattle noise.  Sort of sounded like a nut or something getting tossed around inside the cam chest.

Tore it down and found this. 

https://youtu.be/YutmW_F-mmw

I think the bushing rotated in the cam plate and blocked the oil port.  But I'm not sure.







Cam chest is full of shavings, but the pump looks fine.  Some yellow chips in the screen and some steel particles on the magnets. 



It ran really sweet till it didn't.  about 2200 miles since the upgrade was done. 

At this point I'll say that this is disappointing.  I'll wait and see how it sorts out before saying more. 

[rbabos]

Wow. That's pretty bad. Most likely lack of lube.
Ron

[Prostock]

Whats the inner cam bearing look like?

[To The Max]

A friend if mine pulled one out that looked like that same brand I think.Max

[Sunny Jim]

Check crank run out.

[Thermodyne]

A friend if mine pulled one out that looked like that same brand I think.Max

Inner looks fine, but it'll get a new one.  Not worth taking a chance on.

[Thermodyne]

Check crank run out.

It was .0025 when the cam went in. 

[Thermodyne]

I've been looking this thing over, and I cant figure out how that bushing is oiled.

The oem plate has a galley that runs to the cam bore with a metering hole in the bore.

This one has what looks like the remains of a metering hole in the bushing, but I can't tell where it got oil from.  There is no galley to match the oem one.  So that would leave them to drill the feed hole at and angle into one of the other galleys, but I can't see it. 

[Ohio HD]

I haven't seen the M8 internals in person but per this diagram, doesn't the cam get oil from the same lifter oil galley passages? The S&S cam plate doesn't have a feed on the back side then?

Per the manual, the plain cam bearing, the lifters, and the cooling jets are on the same oil circuit. Could the cooling jets be loose and leaking?


[attach=0]

[Thermodyne]

I haven't seen the M8 internals in person but per this diagram, doesn't the cam get oil from the same lifter oil galley passages? The S&S cam plate doesn't have a feed on the back side then?

Per the manual, the plain cam bearing, the lifters, and the cooling jets are on the same oil circuit. Could the cooling jets be loose and leaking?


[attach=0,msg1314076]

The S&S plate does not have the oil galley at the top left [8], that feeds the cam bore on the oem plate.  I don't know for sure, but it gets its oil from below the bushing bore, could be from the cross bore that feed the tensioner.  Where the filter return crosses under the cam bearing.

I found a photo of a new plate that shows the oil port in the bushing.  Not a great shot, but looks to be located at the bottom.



In the plate that failed, what's left of that port has rotated around to about 7 oclock.  The rotation is in the direction of cam rotation.  And the bushing wear seems to have occurred after it rotated, as it matches the wear on the plate itself. 





So my theory is the bushing walked and blocked the oil flow.  And like a lot of indexed bushing pressed into aluminum, prolly needs a pin.  Or an oil grove on the outer surface.   

[Jmd897]

Yea I was going between the S&S and Feuling and decided the later due to the S&S failures I have been seeing. 

[Nastytls]

Bummer!!
If there are shavings in there how are you going to get them out of the cases without splitting them?

[PoorUB]

Check crank run out.

It was .0025 when the cam went in.

Check it again.

[borno]

I'd be P.O.ed, you get top grade parts so crap like this doesn't happen.

[Mule]

A lot of S&S stuff is made off shore now days....

[Helmwurst]

Great !! Just what I needed to see. Wonder if mine is the one prone to fail or one of the more reliable ones !!??

[Buglet]

    I like to know what S&S has to say about this.

[Thermodyne]

Check crank run out.

It was .0025 when the cam went in.

Check it again.

Still .0025.

[BVHOG]

How long ago did you install this?  Part of the late release of the plates was the bushings being too tight.

[Thermodyne]

How long ago did you install this?  Part of the late release of the plates was the bushings being too tight.

I did the original work back in the middle of June. 

[Thermodyne]

I have a couple of shout- outs on this.

A big one to Fuelmoto for taking hold of this and walking it up to S&S for me.  Great customer service.  Shipping the replacements before I return the old stuff is really outstanding.

And another shout-out to S&S for standing behind all of the parts.  They are replacing everything except the tappet cuffs, and pushrods.  And they are buying me a new oil pan to replace the one on the scooter. 

So I'm only out the time and some oil and a filter. 

[Ohio HD]

All things considered, that's not a terrible compromise. I hope they get back with you on exact cause.

[Durwood]

I have a couple of shout- outs on this.

A big one to Fuelmoto for taking hold of this and walking it up to S&S for me.  Great customer service.  Shipping the replacements before I return the old stuff is really outstanding.

And another shout-out to S&S for standing behind all of the parts.  They are replacing everything except the tappet cuffs, and pushrods.  And they are buying me a new oil pan to replace the one on the scooter. 

So I'm only out the time and some oil and a filter.

That is great customer service. There are going to be issues with parts in any industry, it's how the seller/mfg handles these issues that make the difference.

Hat's off to Fuel Moto and S&S for stepping up to the plate.

[Helmwurst]

I have a couple of shout- outs on this.

A big one to Fuelmoto for taking hold of this and walking it up to S&S for me.  Great customer service.  Shipping the replacements before I return the old stuff is really outstanding.

And another shout-out to S&S for standing behind all of the parts.  They are replacing everything except the tappet cuffs, and pushrods.  And they are buying me a new oil pan to replace the one on the scooter. 

So I'm only out the time and some oil and a filter.

I am assuming the cuffs and pushrods were not damaged ??

[les]

I have a couple of shout- outs on this.

A big one to Fuelmoto for taking hold of this and walking it up to S&S for me.  Great customer service.  Shipping the replacements before I return the old stuff is really outstanding.

And another shout-out to S&S for standing behind all of the parts.  They are replacing everything except the tappet cuffs, and pushrods.  And they are buying me a new oil pan to replace the one on the scooter. 

So I'm only out the time and some oil and a filter.

I can't think of anything more they can do to make it right.

[Thermodyne]

I am assuming the cuffs and pushrods were not damaged ??

Cuffs are like new, and the pushrods just need a good flushing out. 

[98fxstc]

I have a couple of shout- outs on this.

A big one to Fuelmoto for taking hold of this and walking it up to S&S for me.  Great customer service.  Shipping the replacements before I return the old stuff is really outstanding.

And another shout-out to S&S for standing behind all of the parts.  They are replacing everything except the tappet cuffs, and pushrods.  And they are buying me a new oil pan to replace the one on the scooter. 

So I'm only out the time and some oil and a filter.

That is great customer service. There are going to be issues with parts in any industry, it's how the seller/mfg handles these issues that make the difference.

Hat's off to Fuel Moto and S&S for stepping up to the plate.

very fortunate
I haven't had any personal experience with Fuel Moto, I understand their customer support is very good
S&S customer support doesn't extend to Oz   

[No Cents]

Bummer!!
If there are shavings in there how are you going to get them out of the cases without splitting them?

    ^ ^ ^
this?

[pwmorris]

A lot of S&S stuff is made off shore now days....

Which parts are made off shore?
Verified with S&S, or some internet "source"?

[FSG]

S&S customer support doesn't extend to Oz   

my experience is only in Brisbane but there's certainly none here, Rollie will tell you to fork off just like everyone else

[Admiral Akbar]

The bronze bearing either does not have an external groove for oil, it was installed wrong or it spun.   On stock TC cam plates, the pinion bearing has straight splines knurled into the OD to keep it from turning, so did Delkron  SnS screwed up here anyway.  This ought to wind up Mr Morris.

[PoorUB]

If I were to put an S&S camplate back in I would pin that bushing.

[Admiral Akbar]

If I were to put an S&S camplate back in I would pin that bushing.

I would change the bushing first.

And the the alignment right.

[98fxstc]

S&S customer support doesn't extend to Oz   

my experience is only in Brisbane but there's certainly none here, Rollie will tell you to fork off just like everyone else

Pretty much my experience too Gary

Dealing direct with S&S in the US provides no joy either

[rbabos]

Well, and external groove on the bushing would eliminate all possible errors. Should have been part of the bushing design.
Ron

[kd]

That is pretty extreme off center wear for just a spun dry bushing problem.  Is the came plate alignment OK?  Why would the wear be so pronounced on the one half of the bushing if the crank is good and the plate is doweled in place?      

[Buglet]

   You have the down force of the cam from the valves and push rods plus the pull of the cam chain pulling it down towards the crank and no lube to the bushing.

[Buglet]

  Also I think Fuel Moto is the one that step up to the plate not so much S&S

[Mule]

[No Cents]

That is pretty extreme off center wear for just a spun dry bushing problem.  Is the came plate alignment OK?  Why would the wear be so pronounced on the one half of the bushing if the crank is good and the plate is doweled in place?   

    kd....I believe you nailed it.
No way that bushing should have worn like it did. Something has to have been mis-aligned for it to wear like it did. A bushing that spins is usually caused by it being too tight to the shaft it's around...in this case to the cam. You can see that the OP's bushing lost the center groove on one end of it. I think this shows there is more going on here than just a bushing being too tight and spinning.
   To the OP...if that engine was mine...it would have to be totally dis-assembled and cleaned. Metal has gone through out that whole engine. Cases would be split and crank bearings replaced. Piston oilers would go in the garbage and the rebuild would begin...checking all clearances and run outs as it was being re-assembled. It looks like the front lobe on the cam had some metal go between it and the lifter. There has to be a bunch of metal that went thru that engine with what all is missing from the bushing in the cam plate. I'd also trash the oil pump and cam plate.

[rbabos]

I too have wondered in 2k miles how much wear there is. It's huge.  Even trace oil, dribbling in, which there is plenty of should have kept the wear down to some extent. It really can't operate bone dry in that setting.  Bronze must be really soft, I suspect and intolerant of reduced oil running.
Ron

[Thermodyne]

That is pretty extreme off center wear for just a spun dry bushing problem.  Is the came plate alignment OK?  Why would the wear be so pronounced on the one half of the bushing if the crank is good and the plate is doweled in place?   

The bushing spun and starved it for oil.   Then the cam wore into the high load area of the bushing, but slightly past the center of static load because of the way the cam loads against the tappets.  No issue there.  The unworn area of the bushing has no load to speak of.  And once the clearance opened up, there was probably some oil getting to the bushing, the waste from the outer tappet was probably getting splashed all over it.  That's the only way it could have survived the roll home.   

[Thermodyne]

If I were to put an S&S camplate back in I would pin that bushing.

I haven't decided how I'm going to do it yet.  I can pin it from the side or key it from the face. 

[Thermodyne]

I too have wondered in 2k miles how much wear there is. It's huge.  Even trace oil, dribbling in, which there is plenty of should have kept the wear down to some extent. It really can't operate bone dry in that setting.  Bronze must be really soft, I suspect and intolerant of reduced oil running.
Ron

Think about how high the loading is on the bushing.  Once it wore and opened up the clearance, it wasn't going to live on splashed oil.  It's designed to maintain a film of oil because the pressurized oil is pumped in faster than it can leak out.  But when you open that clearance up to as little a .004, it looses the ability to maintain the oil film.   Its really no different than a rod or main bearing in a auto engine.  It works in a very narrow clearance range.    To be sure, the oil that splashed in helped, but it only delayed the inevitable.

[pwmorris]

Check crank run out.

It was .0025 when the cam went in.

Check it again.

Yes, this^^^^^

That is pretty extreme off center wear for just a spun dry bushing problem.  Is the came plate alignment OK?  Why would the wear be so pronounced on the one half of the bushing if the crank is good and the plate is doweled in place?   

The bushing spun and starved it for oil.   Then the cam wore into the high load area of the bushing, but slightly past the center of static load because of the way the cam loads against the tappets.  No issue there.  The unworn area of the bushing has no load to speak of.  And once the clearance opened up, there was probably some oil getting to the bushing, the waste from the outer tappet was probably getting splashed all over it.  That's the only way it could have survived the roll home.   

So,
You are going to use again a part you say is a failed part? Why would you do that?
You are then going to modify said part, despite thousands of these parts having zero issues, as is from factory?
I have run, and know of several of these personally with zero issues.

What did S&S say?

That is pretty extreme off center wear for just a spun dry bushing problem.  Is the came plate alignment OK?  Why would the wear be so pronounced on the one half of the bushing if the crank is good and the plate is doweled in place?      

This^^^^^^^

[98fxstc]

So,
You are going to use again a part you say is a failed part? Why would you do that?
You are then going to modify said part, despite thousands of these parts having zero issues, as is from factory?
I have run, and know of several of these personally with zero issues.

I had a S&S push rod that failed on adjustment
silly enough to think S&S might replace it
No
I had to buy another set of 4 and now I have three spares   

I used S&S again because I know they are a reasonable product and I was just unlucky

[attach=0]

[98fxstc]

So,
You are going to use again a part you say is a failed part? Why would you do that?
You are then going to modify said part, despite thousands of these parts having zero issues, as is from factory?
I have run, and know of several of these personally with zero issues.

common sense to improve a part if you can
particularly after experiencing a failure

[pwmorris]

So,
You are going to use again a part you say is a failed part? Why would you do that?
You are then going to modify said part, despite thousands of these parts having zero issues, as is from factory?
I have run, and know of several of these personally with zero issues.

common sense to improve a part if you can
particularly after experiencing a failure

No-
Really?
If a Jesel rocker or spring fatigues, cracks or fails in any way in a NASCAR motor....Watch a tear down after each race in a drag motor...even if NO damage is detected.  Trash pile. Bye Bye....
Do you think a crew chief directs his guys to drill holes on it or dip in in steel to lighten or strengthen it? Hell no. Trash dump it goes...if a spring breaks do you weld it? If a cam shows wear, do you add material to it? If a cylinder shows wear, do you bore it and Reem it without adding the proper piston overbore to match?
I have blown apart, destroyed, broke, damaged and damn right ruined all kinds of parts. Sad and sometimes fun....
You think I blame the part? Hell no.
Each and EVERY case was a cause/effect situation, where I stressed, heated, mis-adjusted, ran wrong spec, mismatched parts, failed to protect them (lack of oil, no rev limiter, etc).....or just plain ABUSED them.
The only, only time, I have ever had a question on any part causing failure of the whole, was when STD in Chatsworth was about to close and they "rushed" to complete a FRONT head for me...(some guys weren't even that lucky, and their parts got locked behind as the business failed). ;(
Got it out of there just after they closed...
Put motor back together, put it on a dyno, and bam 💥 motor blew. They claimed a stretched rod caused the contact, O.K....but funny.....it was the front head that blew first (thru a little EZ detective work), sending Exploded aluminum from the FRONT head, thru the entire motor.
Complete destruction.

Pushrods? How ya gonna improve it?
Seriously?
I've Used titanium that bent like a wet noodle...."blame the pushrod!" Hell no.
My stupid ass trying them to lighten the valvetrain at big time pressures. I own it. By far, it's the wrong set up applying the wrong load on these parts. That includes cam plates, lifters (I can show you all kinds of examples of lifters trying to do their job, but being hammered by the wrong set up, pressures, and parts.
I've exploded an S&S standard non limiter lifter, spraying oil all over a drum.....
"lifer fault?" Bullshit. I ran a huge HP, hi lift motor at big time rpm for an extended time on these poor suckers.
"These lifters are no good!"
My ass.....that's on me and how we set up the motor. Should have run solids (which were the only solution at the time).
Sure, I've Tweaked and jerryrigged lots of parts for emergencies.
You are a hell of a lot better man than me....and S&S.....and their engineers.

"I used S&S again because I know they are a reasonable product and I was just unlucky"
You used S&S because they are the performance leader for over 50 years, and no company is better (although for your specific part you could have run a Smith Bros.) Also, of course Jesel is numero uno here, but a race application. Either way S&S is still King of the street VTwin world .

[FSG]

Ahhhh   to funny and to be expected    

I'd pin that bushing as well   

[To The Max]

I had a faulty SE push rod the same as yours, took it back to the dealer no problem new packet. I don't deal with companys that don't back there products. and I would pin that bush as well . Max

[98fxstc]

So,
You are going to use again a part you say is a failed part? Why would you do that?
You are then going to modify said part, despite thousands of these parts having zero issues, as is from factory?
I have run, and know of several of these personally with zero issues.

common sense to improve a part if you can
particularly after experiencing a failure

"I used S&S again because I know they are a reasonable product and I was just unlucky"
You used S&S because they are the performance leader for over 50 years, and no company is better (although for your specific part you could have run a Smith Bros.) Also, of course Jesel is numero uno here, but a race application. Either way S&S is still King of the street VTwin world .

the only bit that makes any sense
Yeah, next time I would go with Smith Bros.

the rest is just a ramble that misses the point

[Scotty]

I'm waiting for PeeWeeMorris to comment on this which he thinks is a internet fabrication designed to destroy S&S 

[turboprop]

I used to be the opinion that the problems reported online about the M8 were simply the 'sky is falling' mentality of online forums, but starting to think there are real issues with this new platform that even the aftermarket has yet to get in front of. Why anyone on any of the forums would knowingly pay more than what my first house cost for one of these problematic bikes is beyond logical. Especially an informed member like Thermodyne. I don't get it.

As for S&S, PW and I usually agree on most things, but not S&S. They have burned me so many times I have lost count. But, they are the 10k pound gorilla in the room (and they know it) so I have to source some components from them.

I understand the consensus here is to pin the new pushing. Got it. Maybe it has been posted, but I have not seen the root cause of the spun bushing. Running it through the logic matrix, the root issue is either bushing/plate or pinion shaft/bushing related.

Has S&S been made aware of this catastrophe and are they interested in looking at the plate? As a manufacturer, I would think their quality department would want to have a look at this component.

[Nastytls]

I'm waiting for PeeWeeMorris to comment on this which he thinks is a internet fabrication designed to destroy S&S 

Facts and logic are too much for some people to deal with, they'd rather just rant and rave about things that have nothing at all to do with the issue at hand. We're dealing with someone that is attempting to assert that most of not failures are the end users fault, not the manufacturer's and that it's fine for a company to not stand behind their product.

At this point I believe that it's reasonably well established that the sumping issue with M8's is related to the loose piston oilers and over filling of oil, which makes these expensive aftermarket plate/pumps a waste of money. Rebuild the engine with the factory plate/pump and ride on.

[VDeuce]

My 120 sumped after I replaced the oiler gaskets, handled the screw depth, loctite and with oil half quart low. My fix was a Feuling pump and plate with no other changes and has been sump free for 12k miles.

[PoorUB]

I used to be the opinion that the problems reported online about the M8 were simply the 'sky is falling' mentality of online forums, but starting to think there are real issues with this new platform that even the aftermarket has yet to get in front of. Why anyone on any of the forums would knowingly pay more than what my first house cost for one of these problematic bikes is beyond logical. Especially an informed member like Thermodyne. I don't get it.

I don't get it either. For me to spend upwards of $30K on a motorcycle is a major investment, I will spend the money, but it better run when I want it. That is why I bought a new Limited in 2016. I was ready for a new motorcycle, heard talk of the M8 coming out and bought the 2016. IMO, the TC is pretty well tried and tested and a pretty solid engine at the end. No way was I going to buy into the first year of a new engine from the MoCo, and I am glad I didn't. Here we are four model years later and nobody is certain that HD has fixed the M8 yet. Sure, only a low percent have issues, but I will not take that chance. I can't imagine spending $28K and getting a lemon. I would not be fun to be around.

[Admiral Akbar]

That is pretty extreme off center wear for just a spun dry bushing problem.  Is the came plate alignment OK?  Why would the wear be so pronounced on the one half of the bushing if the crank is good and the plate is doweled in place?   

The bushing spun and starved it for oil.   Then the cam wore into the high load area of the bushing, but slightly past the center of static load because of the way the cam loads against the tappets.  No issue there.  The unworn area of the bushing has no load to speak of.  And once the clearance opened up, there was probably some oil getting to the bushing, the waste from the outer tappet was probably getting splashed all over it.  That's the only way it could have survived the roll home.

My mistake, I thought everyone knew this..

[Will-Run]

What are the differences..... if any, between S&S pump & plate & Fuel Moto. pump & plate?.

[turboprop]

What are the differences..... if any, between S&S pump & plate & Fuel Moto. pump & plate?.

No such thing as a Fuel Moto pump and plate as they are simply a reseller, not a manufacturer.

[Thermodyne]

What are the differences..... if any, between S&S pump & plate & Fuel Moto. pump & plate?.

S&S uses a three rotor (stage) pump.  Pretty much everyone else uses a two rotor pump.  The problem with scavenging two separate areas with one rotor is that if one area has no oil, the pump draws air.  And the air stalls the scavenge side of the pump.  Stall the pump, drown the sump.  Harley uses a 2 rotor pump because its cheaper to produce.  Quite a lot cheaper as production parts go.  And most companies just use a modified version of the Harley pump.

S&S also adds magnets and chip screens as well as an adjustable bypass valve. 


On the cam plate, S&S  changed the way oil is routed through the plate, and installed replicable bushings for the cam and crank.  Most others just ride in the material of the plate.  Riding in the plate material is fine, the bushings just make the plate rebuildable. 

The bushing is not a new idea.  S&S used them on their twin cam plate.  As did Screaming Eagle.

[yobtaf103]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

[To The Max]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

I don't have a problem with my softail but have been pondering putting in the 3 stage pump . thoughts anybody. Max .

[IronButt70]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

I don't have a problem with my softail but have been pondering putting in the 3 stage pump . thoughts anybody. Max .

If it ain't broke.......Well, you know. JMHO

[Ohio HD]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

I don't have a problem with my softail but have been pondering putting in the 3 stage pump . thoughts anybody. Max .

Keep working on it until it does have a problem?   

If you have one that has no issues, just ride it and be happy.

[wfolarry]

If you plan on pinning that bushing why not just replace the bushing in the plate you have?
When you drill that new plate & press a pin in there it will leave a raised spot in the bore. It will have to be resized. If you're equipped to do this then you're all set. If not plan ahead.

[Thermodyne]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

As I understand it, yes.  But I would double check that with S&S.

[Thermodyne]

If you plan on pinning that bushing why not just replace the bushing in the plate you have?
When you drill that new plate & press a pin in there it will leave a raised spot in the bore. It will have to be resized. If you're equipped to do this then you're all set. If not plan ahead.

I checked the size on the cam journal and its a standard reamer size.  1.100 IIRC.  So I can run a pin reamer through it then fit size it on the rod machine.

[Thermodyne]

If you plan on pinning that bushing why not just replace the bushing in the plate you have?
When you drill that new plate & press a pin in there it will leave a raised spot in the bore. It will have to be resized. If you're equipped to do this then you're all set. If not plan ahead.

I would have been good with that.  But S&S has the call on that.  And their call was a new plate. 
They probably want the old plate back on their bench to see if they can determine what the bushing spun.  If its a fit issue, then they can correct it with their vender.  I suspect its a fit quality issue, no reason this bushing should behave differently than the bushings in the TC plate.

With that said, if I was to press that bushing and replace it, I would cut a feed grove in the bore of the plate.  So the bushing was not reliant on being indexed correctly.   But that would also involve a line reamer and a bare case to correct the bushing after leaning on it that hard.  And with the way motor parts are built these days, the bushing might need to be dipped in nitrogen before setting it in place. 

[pwmorris]

I'm waiting for PeeWeeMorris to comment on this which he thinks is a internet fabrication designed to destroy S&S 

Obsolete part that you got from Taiwan Ted, Custom Chrome, etc.
S&S does not make, or have this P/N any more.

https://www.sscycle.com/search

Note the double layered sticker, new part number.

If you plan on pinning that bushing why not just replace the bushing in the plate you have?
When you drill that new plate & press a pin in there it will leave a raised spot in the bore. It will have to be resized. If you're equipped to do this then you're all set. If not plan ahead.

I would have been good with that.  But S&S has the call on that.  And their call was a new plate. 
They probably want the old plate back on their bench to see if they can determine what the bushing spun.  If its a fit issue, then they can correct it with their vender.  I suspect its a fit quality issue, no reason this bushing should behave differently than the bushings in the TC plate.

With that said, if I was to press that bushing and replace it, I would cut a feed grove in the bore of the plate.  So the bushing was not reliant on being indexed correctly.   But that would also involve a line reamer and a bare case to correct the bushing after leaning on it that hard.  And with the way motor parts are built these days, the bushing might need to be dipped in nitrogen before setting it in place. 

Parts fail from all manufacturers. I know of an aerospace circuit board vendor who has has a rejection if just one out of 10,000 is even in the thousands out of spec....
So S&S has offered you a new plate?
Despite all the hero modification advice posted, I will bet you do nothing-and assemble as is.
You will install it just as thousands have before you.
However, going forward, as I said, I would tear that motor down, and split cases. I also believe this is a symptom of another issue -crank, etc. and if Im not 100 percent, positive, it's simply too risky to re-assemble as is.
As far as re-using parts I deem inferior....never have never will, but that's just me.
You screw me, you are out. Period.
Anyway, Since you seem to think you are good not doing that, best of luck going forward, and hope it works out for you.

[Mule]

Obsolete part that you got from Taiwan Ted, Custom Chrome, etc.
S&S does not make, or have this P/N any more.
They went obsolete pretty darn fast seeing how the packaging date was last March 2019...

[pwmorris]

Obsolete part that you got from Taiwan Ted, Custom Chrome, etc.
S&S does not make, or have this P/N any more.
They went obsolete pretty darn fast seeing how the packaging date was last March 2019...

That is the secondary aftermarket sticker date posted above the original S&S part number.
Call S&S tomorrow, then own it here on this post.....

[98fxstc]

I believe the S&S standard lifters are made in Mexico
the S&S Premiums are made in the US

[To The Max]

S&S pump will work with the stock cam plate ?

I don't have a problem with my softail but have been pondering putting in the 3 stage pump . thoughts anybody. Max .

If it ain't broke.......Well, you know. JMHO

Thanks guys , to say the truth I would rather stay with the OEM party any way. Max

[Thermodyne]

Good thing I have another scooter to ride. 

M8 oil pans for baggers are on back order till the 20th.  So by the time it gets to Fuelmoto and then to me, it'll be end of the month.

Now with that said, the MoCo makes an oil pan that has a baffle permanently attached, making the part disposable.  I get it, they save some money on a part that few expect to ever replace.  But then they run out of replacement pans?  Someone cut the inventory budget too thin, or is the demand for service pans higher than expected?     

[PoorUB]

Now with that said, the MoCo makes an oil pan that has a baffle permanently attached, making the part disposable.     

Drill of the rivets, and drill and tap the holes for screws. Not hard to do at all.

[Thermodyne]

Now with that said, the MoCo makes an oil pan that has a baffle permanently attached, making the part disposable.     

Drill of the rivets, and drill and tap the holes for screws. Not hard to do at all.

Ya, I know I could remove the baffle.  But since this is a warrantee job and S&S is eating the pan, I'd still need an old one to send back. 

[Ohio HD]

Now with that said, the MoCo makes an oil pan that has a baffle permanently attached, making the part disposable.     

Drill of the rivets, and drill and tap the holes for screws. Not hard to do at all.

Got any pics of doing one?

[ecir50]

doesn't sound like yours is this bad but this does go to show.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=374486843489993

https://www.facebook.com/GMR-Performance-559176144113934/

https://www.facebook.com/GMR-Performance-559176144113934/

[PoorUB]

Now with that said, the MoCo makes an oil pan that has a baffle permanently attached, making the part disposable.     

Drill of the rivets, and drill and tap the holes for screws. Not hard to do at all.

Got any pics of doing one?

Nope, but someone here posted pics of them removing the baffle and reinstalling it a while back.

[klammer76]

Well, if you saw the pictures before they were removed you got the idea. Find the ones from here, Whatever.

[Coyote]

Guys, you can't take stuff from other websites and upload them here. Either hotlink the pics or use a photo hosting service and post them that way.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=350.0

Do not cut and paste material from other sites on HTT. Use a link instead. Do not upload any material that is owned/copyrighted by others.

[pwmorris]

My bad,
Have to own this big time, as it has been several years since I contacted anyone I know at S&S, as to their products origin. Have used their products for over 20 years and assumed all was as it was.
I was wrong.
As life and economic pressures change, American manufacturing is constantly under stress from the Global economy to adapt. S&S is no exception. Despite local manufacturing, local sourcing materials in the USA, and trying to assemble the final product here in our Country, they DO use foreign products as their own-
On 2% of their final products shipped to consumers.
This is a fact, and actually, based on the overall V Twin manufacturing situation as a whole (electric, and alternative power sources and political pressures are here now, or right around the corner, making the internal combustion motorcycle engine in serious jeopardy going forward in the next few years), I guess I have been asleep at the wheel, living in a glass house as to S&S being immune to this spreading virus that everyone else was dealing with.

Here are the facts from a trusted S&S source as of September 2019......

"The fact is, we do live in a global economy, in some cases, components of US made parts are made in other countries, sometimes that is price driven, other times it is driven by expertise. Either way, S&S does not make pistons, but we do go out of our way to use the best parts available and in this case (Wiseco or whoever we purchased from) uses an offshore vendor. That being said, 98% of what we sell is made in the USA."

Again, to all, including FSG (a MOD who apparently enjoys piling on-see post #48) "Ahhhh to funny and to be expected  "
and everyone else who I defended S&S against you, sometimes, well, many times hardcore, pile on.....
All good, I can take it.............

Still believe S&S an excellent, viable option to Harley for performance parts in the V Twin world, as apparently do many across the Globe.

[PoorUB]

My bad,
Have to own this big time, as it has been several years since I contacted anyone I know at S&S, as to their products origin. Have used their products for over 20 years and assumed all was as it was.
I was wrong.

That had to hurt!

It is a good man that can admit when he is wrong.

[98fxstc]

Obsolete part that you got from Taiwan Ted, Custom Chrome, etc.
S&S does not make, or have this P/N any more.
They went obsolete pretty darn fast seeing how the packaging date was last March 2019...

That is the secondary aftermarket sticker date posted above the original S&S part number.
Call S&S tomorrow, then own it here on this post.....

might need some glasses to go with your humble pie
there are three stickers on the package
the later sticker is the S&S sticker with the shipping date as pointed out by Mule

[Thermodyne]

Still waiting on parts.  Got a few more pictures I can post. 

When I dropped the pan it was a real mess





The little silt traps cast into the bottom of the pan seem to have done their job.  The suck hole is clean as was the passage in the case.



In the past, when I've dropped pans, I never found anything worth the effort.  But I guess I'm a believer now.

[Thermodyne]

All back together and running well.

I did not split the cases.  But I also did not find any brass past the filter.  Return port was clear, as were the feed passages in the plate.  Tappet were free of brass as were the pushrods.  The sump swabbed clear as did the crank pinion port, and the piston oiler passages.  (for what that's worth)  And I realize that there could be an issue that turns up later, from contamination in the wheel set, but the only solution to that is to send the wheels out for disassembly (rebuild).  So I rolled the dice and reassembled it.  If it was a customers scooter, then time being money, it would have gotten a short block or a replacement engine.  I'd have to get the calculator out to decide which. 

Fuel Moto was great about taking care of everything, but really wanted the parts back asap.

When I spoke with S&S they were kind of neutral about the whole thing.  More concerned about when and where I bought the parts than anything else.  No suggestions as to check on anything at all. 

And as I talked with some of the people I consider to be my mentors, the one thing that seemed to be universal (past everything since the evo being crap) was that I should not modify the cam plate.  Reason being that that would let S&S off the hook if it has a repeat failure.

As it stands now, this is a less than $100 repair for me.  Oil - filter - a few orings off the shelf - some solvent and 3 bond.  If it goes bad, I'll deal with it then. 

Here's a few more photos from the process.

Run out check





Twin cam sprocket lock works fine



Plate style inner cam bearing tool from the twin cam will not work, you need one for an M8.
Or you can use the single bearing puller and driver set from a twin cam.



And just because, I primed it until I saw oil drain from the cam bushing.  So it has oil at this point.  If it spins again, its not from lack of oil. 



And some oil filter gore.

[lucasg]

Wow...that's gotta suck big time.   Glad Fuel Moto and S&S are helping you out, and you're not out of pocket much;  much more " convenience " than anything.  Nice that you're able to do all that wrenching yourself.  Hope you don't experience anymore issues and get riding sooner than later ....looking good 👍

[FSG]

 

Twin cam sprocket lock works fine

[pwmorris]

All back together and running well.

I did not split the cases.  But I also did not find any brass past the filter.  Return port was clear, as were the feed passages in the plate.  Tappet were free of brass as were the pushrods.  The sump swabbed clear as did the crank pinion port, and the piston oiler passages.  (for what that's worth)  And I realize that there could be an issue that turns up later, from contamination in the wheel set, but the only solution to that is to send the wheels out for disassembly (rebuild).  So I rolled the dice and reassembled it.  If it was a customers scooter, then time being money, it would have gotten a short block or a replacement engine.  I'd have to get the calculator out to decide which. 

Fuel Moto was great about taking care of everything, but really wanted the parts back asap.

When I spoke with S&S they were kind of neutral about the whole thing.  More concerned about when and where I bought the parts than anything else.  No suggestions as to check on anything at all. 

And as I talked with some of the people I consider to be my mentors, the one thing that seemed to be universal (past everything since the evo being crap) was that I should not modify the cam plate. Reason being that that would let S&S off the hook if it has a repeat failure.

As it stands now, this is a less than $100 repair for me.  Oil - filter - a few orings off the shelf - some solvent and 3 bond.  If it goes bad, I'll deal with it then. 

Here's a few more photos from the process.

Run out check





Twin cam sprocket lock works fine



Plate style inner cam bearing tool from the twin cam will not work, you need one for an M8.
Or you can use the single bearing puller and driver set from a twin cam.



And just because, I primed it until I saw oil drain from the cam bushing.  So it has oil at this point.  If it spins again, its not from lack of oil. 



And some oil filter gore.

As I said.....
Post #68-
"Despite all the hero modification advice posted, I will bet you do nothing-and assemble as is."
Yup.

S&S.......that bad bitch.......you can't stand to be with-and you can't stand to be without- because at the end of the day, she is damn good. No matter how many times you and your friends sit around the campfire with a couple brews and bash the witch....you ain't got nothin' Better.....and you are right back where you were before. And that's O.K.

Glad S&S took care of you.
Enjoy the ride, and best of luck going forward on the build.

[harleytuner]

All back together and running well.

I did not split the cases.  But I also did not find any brass past the filter.  Return port was clear, as were the feed passages in the plate.  Tappet were free of brass as were the pushrods.  The sump swabbed clear as did the crank pinion port, and the piston oiler passages.  (for what that's worth)  And I realize that there could be an issue that turns up later, from contamination in the wheel set, but the only solution to that is to send the wheels out for disassembly (rebuild).  So I rolled the dice and reassembled it.  If it was a customers scooter, then time being money, it would have gotten a short block or a replacement engine.  I'd have to get the calculator out to decide which. 

Fuel Moto was great about taking care of everything, but really wanted the parts back asap.

When I spoke with S&S they were kind of neutral about the whole thing.  More concerned about when and where I bought the parts than anything else.  No suggestions as to check on anything at all. 

And as I talked with some of the people I consider to be my mentors, the one thing that seemed to be universal (past everything since the evo being crap) was that I should not modify the cam plate. Reason being that that would let S&S off the hook if it has a repeat failure.

As it stands now, this is a less than $100 repair for me.  Oil - filter - a few orings off the shelf - some solvent and 3 bond.  If it goes bad, I'll deal with it then. 

Here's a few more photos from the process.

Run out check





Twin cam sprocket lock works fine



Plate style inner cam bearing tool from the twin cam will not work, you need one for an M8.
Or you can use the single bearing puller and driver set from a twin cam.



And just because, I primed it until I saw oil drain from the cam bushing.  So it has oil at this point.  If it spins again, its not from lack of oil. 



And some oil filter gore.

As I said.....
Post #68-
"Despite all the hero modification advice posted, I will bet you do nothing-and assemble as is."
Yup.

S&S.......that bad bitch.......you can't stand to be with-and you can't stand to be without- because at the end of the day, she is damn good. No matter how many times you and your friends sit around the campfire with a couple brews and bash the witch....you ain't got nothin' Better.....and you are right back where you were before. And that's O.K.

Glad S&S took care of you.
Enjoy the ride, and best of luck going forward on the build.

:up:The next time this needs rebuilt it will be blamed on S&S as well.  If you don't have time to do it right....you'll won't have time to do it again.

[Thermodyne]

250 mile oil change, oil looked good as did the filter.  So far so good.

[cbumdumb]

Glad to see Fuel Moto stand up .... had issues twice on a product from them and both times they stood up to the plate and made it right .  Didn't read whole post  but despite my easy to get ugly personality they worked with me and were more professional than I.

[Pirsch Fire Wagon]

I'm glad to see you fared well in this.

HOPEFULLY, this was just an isolated incident since there was no "definitive" explanation provided you. And, you really can't blame them - They made good on everything. A lot of places would place blame squarely on the installer before anything is known. Personally, I prefer S&S over H-D in many area's - This being one for sure!

I've put about 15 of those in in the past couple years at my Part-Time. Have yet to see one with a failure (KNOCK-ON-WOOD). Hope I don't!

Good luck!

[barny7655]

I have a feeling ,with what you discribed what happened ,it started with ,oil starvation start further up the line as to tappet noise etc , thus starving the main bush ,when a bush or bearing spins you are left with a high side which wears the bush or shaft,to follow the oil flow chart may lead to where the blockage occured first,if that is not addressed this will happen again,chirping would of been bearing spun,hope the new parts has flushed out any debrees that was left in the oil lines , cheers Barny

[Thermodyne]

I have a feeling ,with what you discribed what happened ,it started with ,oil starvation start further up the line as to tappet noise etc , thus starving the main bush ,when a bush or bearing spins you are left with a high side which wears the bush or shaft,to follow the oil flow chart may lead to where the blockage occured first,if that is not addressed this will happen again,chirping would of been bearing spun,hope the new parts has flushed out any debrees that was left in the oil lines , cheers Barny

As said above, S&S changes the oil flow path to the cam boss in their plate.  I don't know why, and they didn't care to elaborate about it. 

A couple of people who deal with them daily say that their lack of interest speaks volumes.  As did their wanting to know exactly when the part was purchased, and not caring about how long it was in service.  I guess I can read between those lines too.

[pwmorris]

I'm glad to see you fared well in this.

HOPEFULLY, this was just an isolated incident since there was no "definitive" explanation provided you. And, you really can't blame them - They man good on everything. A lot of places would place blame squarely on the installer before anything is known. Personally, I prefer S&S over H-D in many area's - This being one for sure!

I've put about 15 of those in in the past couple years at my Part-Time. Have yet to see one with a failure (KNOCK-ON-WOOD). Hope I don't!

Good luck!

Yup-
As I said, it's take a dump on S&S big time here (but..... I still love them so while I dump, on one hand, I use their products with the other...damn joke.
Problem is, no matter how you spin this with the Mob mentality, S&S owned up and tried (and did), to make good here, no matter who's fault.
On top of that, there is ZERO confirmation what caused this in the first place.

"A couple of people who deal with them daily say that their lack of interest speaks volumes."
Bullshit.
What people? Name them. Lack of interest? Seriously? Myself, and many racers/shops use and deal with S&S on a regular basis. Straight forward on that end. Order, done. Problem. What is it and how can we address it? Done.
No denial, string along, excuses, etc...even though the "blame game of responsibility NEVER goes to the other parties involved.
Installer?
"I did everything perfect...must be the part!" (No damn way he screwed anything  up here.......)
Tuner?
"I tuned it perfectly! Must be the way the owner rides!" Or, "the installer must have screwed up the install!"
Owner?
I ride very gently, and never rev the motor!" "Gotta be the parts! Or....
"The tuner didn't tune it right!"

Bottom line.....
They sent you a new plate, even though the cause of this is more likely due to other issues (thousands of these plates in use-zero issues).
S&S sucks! (But, hey, can't wait to use their products again....
Hypocrisy at its best.

[ecir50]

kiss ass :0 if not for fuel moto what would have happened is the question.

[pwmorris]

Did Fuel Moto save the day?

[turboprop]

Did Fuel Moto save the day?

Jamie did actually. Scroll through the thread. S&S spent more time confirming when, where and from who the OP purchased the parts from and was not too eager to offer any technical advice or replacement parts. That is where Jamie at Fuel Moto kicked in.

This mirrors my recent experiences with S&S. I will remind you of my TC case that S&S admitted to having improperly machined, didn't offer anything and were really more concerned with the when, where and from who that I purchased the case from. Once that was established they were very quick to point out it was not under warranty and dam near hung up on me.

S&S is not the company it used to be. IMO, S&S went bad when Bret Smith was in charge. You and others that know people at S&S might get treated well, but when the average person calls them the results are very different. Even on this page, they signed up to be a sponsor, said they were here to help, etc. Look at their posts. Minimal to nonexistent. Their few posts on this page have failed to answer any technical questions in an open forum, but have redirected people to their website. Total failure.

But you are right, there are things I need them for and just have to suck it. But I tell you what, I do everything I can to source parts from manufacturers other than S&S. Other than their 4-⅛" bore cases and heads, there is not much I need from them.

[klammer76]

delete

[klammer76]

All back together and running well.

I did not split the cases.  But I also did not find any brass past the filter.  Return port was clear, as were the feed passages in the plate.  Tappet were free of brass as were the pushrods.  The sump swabbed clear as did the crank pinion port, and the piston oiler passages.  (for what that's worth)  And I realize that there could be an issue that turns up later, from contamination in the wheel set, but the only solution to that is to send the wheels out for disassembly (rebuild).  So I rolled the dice and reassembled it.  If it was a customers scooter, then time being money, it would have gotten a short block or a replacement engine.  I'd have to get the calculator out to decide which. 

Fuel Moto was great about taking care of everything, but really wanted the parts back asap.

When I spoke with S&S they were kind of neutral about the whole thing.  More concerned about when and where I bought the parts than anything else.  No suggestions as to check on anything at all. 

And as I talked with some of the people I consider to be my mentors, the one thing that seemed to be universal (past everything since the evo being crap) was that I should not modify the cam plate. Reason being that that would let S&S off the hook if it has a repeat failure.

As it stands now, this is a less than $100 repair for me.  Oil - filter - a few orings off the shelf - some solvent and 3 bond.  If it goes bad, I'll deal with it then. 

Here's a few more photos from the process.

Run out check





Twin cam sprocket lock works fine



Plate style inner cam bearing tool from the twin cam will not work, you need one for an M8.
Or you can use the single bearing puller and driver set from a twin cam.



And just because, I primed it until I saw oil drain from the cam bushing.  So it has oil at this point.  If it spins again, its not from lack of oil. 



And some oil filter gore.

As I said.....
Post #68-
"Despite all the hero modification advice posted, I will bet you do nothing-and assemble as is."
Yup.

S&S.......that bad bitch.......you can't stand to be with-and you can't stand to be without- because at the end of the day, she is damn good. No matter how many times you and your friends sit around the campfire with a couple brews and bash the witch....you ain't got nothin' Better.....and you are right back where you were before. And that's O.K.

Glad S&S took care of you.
Enjoy the ride, and best of luck going forward on the build.

[Thermodyne]

Its all prolly for naught at this point.

Little ole lady killed it Saturday evening.  Pulled right out in front of me.




To stove up to get a good look at it, so I just held my phone down low and took a few shots for shits and giggles. 
This one seems to show a damaged frame gusset at the right lower neck area.

If its torn, its a write off.

[FSG]

and wouldn't that tear your nightie   

[VDeuce]

Oh man, sorry this happened to you.

Reminds me of waxing my '70 Chevelle, got it looking great only for a 4-vehicle accident to take it out right after I finished.

[borno]

That really sucks man

[klammer76]

Sorry to hear this but thankful you are ok.

[pwmorris]

Did Fuel Moto save the day?

Jamie did actually. Scroll through the thread. S&S spent more time confirming when, where and from who the OP purchased the parts from and was not too eager to offer any technical advice or replacement parts. That is where Jamie at Fuel Moto kicked in.

This mirrors my recent experiences with S&S. I will remind you of my TC case that S&S admitted to having improperly machined, didn't offer anything and were really more concerned with the when, where and from who that I purchased the case from. Once that was established they were very quick to point out it was not under warranty and dam near hung up on me.

S&S is not the company it used to be. IMO, S&S went bad when Bret Smith was in charge. You and others that know people at S&S might get treated well, but when the average person calls them the results are very different. Even on this page, they signed up to be a sponsor, said they were here to help, etc. Look at their posts. Minimal to nonexistent. Their few posts on this page have failed to answer any technical questions in an open forum, but have redirected people to their website. Total failure.

But you are right, there are things I need them for and just have to suck it. But I tell you what, I do everything I can to source parts from manufacturers other than S&S. Other than their 4-⅛" bore cases and heads, there is not much I need from them.

Fuel Moto has had an excellent reputation for as long as I've known of them, and they walk the talk.....which is more than many Companies can say about their products and service.
I get it, S&S ain't what it was. It sucks when people aren't treated with the respect they deserve.
Customer Service, it appears, is the numero uno problem apparently, and something ownership must address going forward. This part of their business model is unacceptable.
As to product quality, other than a few (2%) of their parts made overseas (sucks big time IMO),  I have not seen mine or anyone else's street performance stuff drop off quality wise, at all. I beat the crap out of my street motor with almost all S&S parts, and it just looks at me after a long, rough day like...."that all ya got?"-and it's ready time after time to put smiles on my face.
This is the part of the deal you mention as a positive.....and why people put up with the other stuff-their parts are still badass. Are their exceptions? Sure as with every company on Earth.
As you know, the big hardcore HP V Twin stuff including drag racing and land speed....they still own this World as well. Period. Why do people that abuse, hammer, and push to the limit their parts, and can use ANY V-Twin Company's parts on Earth, continually rely on S&S? For decades?
For those who may not know, many "aftermarket builders, customizers, and performance companies" use S&S parts. Some exclusively, and some with many S&S parts like Fuel Moto.

Here are the parts the Fuel Moto 126", for example uses in their motors for their ultimate expression in power, and a name they rely on to deliver the goods.

The following items are included with the Fuel Moto 126" Outlaw:
Genuine Harley Davidson SE engine cases with Timken conversion
S&S 3 piece crankshaft, 4140 steel; heavy duty connecting rods
Fuel Moto IC extreme duty cylinders, precision bored; Forged pistons
Fuel Moto Outlaw CNC ported S&S Super Stock heads (port profile by Rick Ward)
Multi radius competition valve job; 660 lift valve springs
Heads machined for HD automatic compression releases
S&S TC3 forged cam plate, S&S three stage oil pump
Wood Performance camshafts
Wood Performance alpha Directional Lifters
Fuel Moto adjustable pushrods
S&S forged roller rockers
S&S rocker housings & rocker stands
S&S lifter blocks
S&S gear drive (optional)

[pwmorris]

OP-
Glad you are OK. Bikes and parts can be replaced, human life and body parts, not yet.
I've put tons of effort and sweat into motor builds, only to have them destroyed, so feel your pain. As a write off, hopefully the motor is ok, and bike can be a buy back.

[Helmwurst]

Glad to hear you are ok... Got to watch the cagers, I never take my eye off of them at an intersection. So far I have avoided my share of near misses, probably is only a matter of time.. Buy it back, make a fat tire bagger or a big wheel out of it !!

[IronButt70]

Its all prolly for naught at this point.

Little ole lady killed it Saturday evening.  Pulled right out in front of me.




To stove up to get a good look at it, so I just held my phone down low and took a few shots for shits and giggles. 
This one seems to show a damaged frame gusset at the right lower neck area.

If its torn, its a write off.

Well that truly sucks. Good to see you weren't seriously injured.

[lucasg]

Thermodyne:  very sorry to hear about your accident.,  absolutely sucks.  Glad your ok.  Hope everything works out and your on the mend and back on your way to building something even better and stronger. 

[Thermodyne]

Well, my insurance company made me well on the scooter.  What I paid, plus the upgrades.  Buying leftovers does have it benefits.

Now I just need to heal up some more and go find another scooter.  Not much around here as far as leftovers. 

[98fxstc]

Well, my insurance company made me well on the scooter.  What I paid, plus the upgrades.  Buying leftovers does have it benefits.

Now I just need to heal up some more and go find another scooter.  Not much around here as far as leftovers.

Good news   

[Thermodyne]

Found another scooter.  A leftover 2019 down in Portsmouth.  Still can't ride it yet, but such is life.

[PoorUB]

Well, if you can't ride it, may as well tear into it, cams, port the heads..........

[klammer76]

Found another scooter.  A leftover 2019 down in Portsmouth.  Still can't ride it yet, but such is life.

Great news, congrats!

[Thermodyne]

Well, if you can't ride it, may as well tear into it, cams, port the heads..........

I try to at least wait until after the first service.

But with that said, I am waiting on the Brown truck.  No cams, but all the fit and comfort stuff that was on the last one, filler lamps, and a set of 45's

The killed one is up on Coparts auction site.  They valued it at almost $30K.  Opens at $125   Might have to watch it and see if I want to buy it back.

https://www.copart.com/lot/52848629

[PoorUB]

Funny, I think they would have to admit the frame damage. I guess you can see it in the one picture, but at a glace it does not look that bad. I can see someone buying it thinking it is fairing a fork damage.

[Thermodyne]

I waited until the 1000 mile service, but did pretty much the same upgrade to this one as the old one got. 

Since it already had the new (4th gen?) oil pump in it, I skipped the pump and plate upgrade.  But same cans, pipe, breather and tuner

The 465 cam really makes good low end torque in this 114.  Pretty easy to lift the front wheel on a 1-2 shift.

But after only 1500 miles the comp is already raising a racket.  Sounded like valve chatter from the seat, but when I went listening with a hose, the noise is coming from the front of the primary.     

[OldMike]

I waited until the 1000 mile service, but did pretty much the same upgrade to this one as the old one got. 

Since it already had the new (4th gen?) oil pump in it, I skipped the pump and plate upgrade.  But same cans, pipe, breather and tuner

The 465 cam really makes good low end torque in this 114. Pretty easy to lift the front wheel on a 1-2 shift.

But after only 1500 miles the comp is already raising a racket.  Sounded like valve chatter from the seat, but when I went listening with a hose, the noise is coming from the front of the primary.     

I thought the latest 8 lobe oil pump didn't become available till the 2020 model year.
I think your going to need more compensator LOL.

[Thermodyne]

I waited until the 1000 mile service, but did pretty much the same upgrade to this one as the old one got. 

Since it already had the new (4th gen?) oil pump in it, I skipped the pump and plate upgrade.  But same cans, pipe, breather and tuner

The 465 cam really makes good low end torque in this 114. Pretty easy to lift the front wheel on a 1-2 shift.

But after only 1500 miles the comp is already raising a racket.  Sounded like valve chatter from the seat, but when I went listening with a hose, the noise is coming from the front of the primary.   

I thought the latest 8 lobe oil pump didn't become available till the 2020 model year.
I think your going to need more compensator LOL.

As I understand it, they started going in engines in 5/19 with all pumps being high scavenge by the 2nd week of 6/19. 

[OldMike]

I waited until the 1000 mile service, but did pretty much the same upgrade to this one as the old one got. 

Since it already had the new (4th gen?) oil pump in it, I skipped the pump and plate upgrade.  But same cans, pipe, breather and tuner

The 465 cam really makes good low end torque in this 114. Pretty easy to lift the front wheel on a 1-2 shift.

But after only 1500 miles the comp is already raising a racket.  Sounded like valve chatter from the seat, but when I went listening with a hose, the noise is coming from the front of the primary.   

I thought the latest 8 lobe oil pump didn't become available till the 2020 model year.
I think your going to need more compensator LOL.

As I understand it, they started going in engines in 5/19 with all pumps being high scavenge by the 2nd week of 6/19.

Thanks