Tried and True SE Heavy Breather external breather modification.

Started by 838, September 03, 2019, 02:00:10 PM

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88b

Perfect timing post as I'm about to do a friends 110 next week .

98fxstc

Quote from: Hossamania on September 05, 2019, 05:18:02 AM
I'm not a fan of running hoses up when using gravity to evacuate fluid. Just my uneducated opinion in fluid dynamics.

:up:

838


Coyote



pwmorris

Quote from: Coyote on September 03, 2019, 04:55:57 PM
No need for a catch can IMO. Just route it back down the frame rail. Tubing is bent out at the end to take it away from the bike and it's not going to hit the rear tire if it were to dump.

[attach=0,msg1314075]


Sure of that?
Not my experience being around hundred of dyno pulls using blower fans.
Put that set up on the dyno with a big 100 mph fan on it-up front and low near under frame as in real world.
Unhook you're drain vent point for test, and watch oil fan out and spray in a nice wide pattern immediately as it leaves that tube-straight back.
Wind velocity is pointed straight at you so, depending on speed and wind, as soon as the fluid exits that angled tube it's gonna spray straight back, not out at an angle, and fan out in a "V" pattern...and contact that rear tire. I've seen it from catastrophic engine failure standing right next to the dyno, where oil went thru the head at failure, into the exhaust port then out the exhaust pipe exit (several inches away/outward from the rear tire). Tire/rim was black from oil as well as a couple feet of the rear of the dyno, left and right of the exit point. Even if your pipe misses most of the rear tire, if it hits some of it, as it rotates it will cover the entire tire.

Get a catch can, which is mandated from every legit racing organization in the World. Protecting you, and your fellow riders-especially under adverse conditions such as rain, or around a curve at speed.

https://www.featool.com/cfd-toolbox/

Coyote

Quote from: pwmorris on January 02, 2020, 05:48:13 PM

Sure of that?

Works for me. Don't ride it on a dyno tho.  :wink:  Not on a track either.

If your motor blows up, I doubt a catch can is gonna keep things clean.

turboprop

Quote from: Coyote on September 03, 2019, 04:55:57 PM
No need for a catch can IMO. Just route it back down the frame rail. Tubing is bent out at the end to take it away from the bike and it's not going to hit the rear tire if it were to dump.

[attach=0,msg1314075]



I really like your setup. Very clean. I may incorporate elements of this into the TC124 in my blue/white FXR.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

Ohio HD

Quote from: Coyote on January 02, 2020, 07:14:03 PM
Quote from: pwmorris on January 02, 2020, 05:48:13 PM

Sure of that?

Works for me. Don't ride it on a dyno tho.  :wink:  Not on a track either.

If your motor blows up, I doubt a catch can is gonna keep things clean.

Yeah, a total dump of oil would just fill and overflow my catch can in seconds. The value of using in my case, it catches little droplets that make their way to the end of the hose.

FSG

Quote from: Coyote on January 02, 2020, 07:14:03 PM
Quote from: pwmorris on January 02, 2020, 05:48:13 PM

Sure of that?

Works for me. Don't ride it on a dyno tho.  :wink:  Not on a track either.

If your motor blows up, I doubt a catch can is gonna keep things clean.

yeah .... nah ...... just need a bigger catch can   :SM:

one of these 'tow behind' models would do well, just need better tires   :scoot:


Ohio HD

Quote from: FSG on January 02, 2020, 08:11:04 PM
Quote from: Coyote on January 02, 2020, 07:14:03 PM
Quote from: pwmorris on January 02, 2020, 05:48:13 PM

Sure of that?

Works for me. Don't ride it on a dyno tho.  :wink:  Not on a track either.

If your motor blows up, I doubt a catch can is gonna keep things clean.

yeah .... nah ...... just need a bigger catch can   :SM:

one of these 'tow behind' models would do well, just need better tires   :scoot:



Ya got a part number for that catch can Billy Bob?     :scoot:


Coyote

Quote from: turboprop on January 02, 2020, 07:28:56 PM
I really like your setup. Very clean. I may incorporate elements of this into the TC124 in my blue/white FXR.

That's my 2012 bike and probably the 4th generation of this mod.  The original idea came from Jim. His used a chrome tube (made from a toilet stub tube from Home Depot) that went straight down under the frame. I was a bit concerned about where the oil dropped so we messed around and decided the best place was to route the oil as far back as possible and then outboard.

The tubing on my '12 is alum that was bent with a hand tubing bender and them polished to a chrome like finish.

That picture was taken a couple years later so it's lost some of it's shine.

Must have got this motor right because it never leaves a drop on the garage floor... just the slightest bit a vapor around the tip of the tube.  If it ever does puke, I would guess there will be less oil on the rear tire than if it came out the breather.

Quote from: FSG on January 02, 2020, 08:11:04 PM




LOL

turboprop

My friend Jim (Hop Sing) was good stuff. I consider myself very fortunate to have gotten to hang with him a few times. He is missed.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

Don D


pwmorris

Quote from: turboprop on January 02, 2020, 07:28:56 PM
Quote from: Coyote on September 03, 2019, 04:55:57 PM
No need for a catch can IMO. Just route it back down the frame rail. Tubing is bent out at the end to take it away from the bike and it's not going to hit the rear tire if it were to dump.

[attach=0,msg1314075]



I really like your setup. Very clean. I may incorporate elements of this into the TC124 in my blue/white FXR.
Ed,
Are you saying your bikes are going to dump to the street?

pwmorris

Quote from: Coyote on January 02, 2020, 07:14:03 PM
Quote from: pwmorris on January 02, 2020, 05:48:13 PM

Sure of that?

Works for me. Don't ride it on a dyno tho.  :wink:  Not on a track either.

If your motor blows up, I doubt a catch can is gonna keep things clean.
Agree to disagree....
Check your dyno section-
Thousands of street bikes making pulls on the dyno on this site. Don't ride it on the dyno...lol..... It is merely a close simulation to street (or strip) as you can get under load at various RPMS to mimic real world...  :wink: so you don't have to go to the track, and you can be safe and secure at home and get the best tune you can from your bike. That's it. Simply a tool, and one of many.
Check out  "NoCents" Ray's muck he posted and pulled out of his catch can on a healthy motor. Yup, that's junk you are spraying back there. I've seen it many other times as well.
His oily muck came out of a newer Twin Cam bagger thru the Rocker Boxes UMBRELLA VALVES, then heads after a long hard day of freeway riding. It has a 124" motor in it, and I will say that a stock or near stock Twin Cam should not have this much muck coming out, but it shows how much the umbrella valves can/can't do to control blow by.
It was drained from his CATCH CAN, and is if a line "T" was running down to drain at his rear tire, guess where it would dump to?
This is from a healthy newer Twin Cam motor. I am calling bullshit if you think more oil cant come out of various V Twin set Ups- from a sumping motor, worn motor, overfilled motor or motor that experienced catastrophic failure.
Oil overflow of tank, sumping, or other fixable issues can also dump a nice spray from a line after a heavy day of riding. Fact.
All kinds of scenarios could cause oil dumping....
https://www.hdforums.com/forum/softail-models/622077-oil-spray-on-right-side-oil-tank.html

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/touring-models/1089131-oil-everywhere.html

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/engine-mechanical-topics/1110180-oil-leaking-from-breather-hose.html

Ever seen Jr. Dragsters at the track? Those kids really fly! Some even go more than 60 mph!
All, all require a catch can......why? Safety, that's why.
http://sportsman.nhra.com/2002/sportsman/news/January/011801.html
And yeah, I've dumped oil on a track, costing me 100 bucks in an oil down fee, when I did a wheel stand and snapped an oil line slamming to the ground and riding it out. They simply followed me to the pits by my "line in the sand" I left. I was lucky I didn't go down, as I luckily was going in a straight line oiling my entire rear end and tire.

From National Hot Rod Association

"Crankcase, motor, and all tanks containing fluids must have vent tubes
routed to catch can or have a non-spill breather system on motorcycle. Active crankcase evacuation systems are not permitted."

Look, I don't give a "Potty mouth" what anyone else does-some guys I know don't have insurance on their bikes cause they don't think they ever will get stolen, or that they will ever get in a crash.
It could happen for far simpler reasons than a full blown motor as well.
It can happen a little bit at a time.
Read about threads where guys who have over filled their oil tank, had sumping, or other issues who said when they stop after a long ride with just the "T" connectors hanging off just below their air cleaner, when they stopped, there was oil mist all over the side of their bike. If you run that connector down and exit just in front of your rear tire, and you have a poor running bike, and are on a long ride, where the hell do you think that oil is gonna go?

I run a simple catch can on my front down tube, vented to atmosphere, but thats my choice. Everyone makes there own.


FSG

you missed the very important

QuoteWorks for me.

and

QuoteLook, I don't give a "Potty mouth" what anyone else does

your posts suggest otherwise

kink04fxd

My 69 Triumph 650 ran the breather hose along the rear fender and dumped at the fender tip behind the tire. [attach=0]
2000 FLHTCI (now carb)<br />1982 FLH

pwmorris

Quote from: FSG on January 03, 2020, 06:41:23 PM
you missed the very important

QuoteWorks for me.

and

QuoteLook, I don't give a "Potty mouth" what anyone else does

your posts suggest otherwise
Love the "support" for and going to bat for your Buddy...expect no less- :up: (BTW, love the trash can LOL pile on)  :wink:
Nice avoidance of the Street, dyno, and track evidence, as well.
My posts suggest Moderators (you and the "crew"), who post their own stuff, as to stuff like safety issues....are held to a higher standard than "Billy Bob" poster. Much higher, actually as lots of guys here on this site are not "experts" like you and Coyote.
Many are simply looking for a solution to something going on with there bike...a  "what a guy should do", to a novice reading your stuff. Trust me, Mods are held to a higher standard.
Many are new members, or surfing, and see that you guys are "in charge" or "running the show", and hold your posts in much higher regard. Maybe they run their "new bikes to them" as a used bike they bought from someone, don't know the history, don't know how much oil to put in them, or how to solve simple blow by issues. You show pictures saying "IMO" dumping a oil vent line to the ground if fine, and it says to a novice...."the HTT mods do it, sounds good to me!
I sure hope your freewheeling advice doesn't come back to bite you in the ass-
Best of luck with it.

Heinz

Quote from: pwmorris on January 04, 2020, 05:01:42 PM
Quote from: FSG on January 03, 2020, 06:41:23 PM
you missed the very important

QuoteWorks for me.

and

QuoteLook, I don't give a "Potty mouth" what anyone else does

your posts suggest otherwise
Love the "support" for and going to bat for your Buddy...expect no less- :up: (BTW, love the trash can LOL pile on)  :wink:
Nice avoidance of the Street, dyno, and track evidence, as well.
My posts suggest Moderators (you and the "crew"), who post their own stuff, as to stuff like safety issues....are held to a higher standard than "Billy Bob" poster. Much higher, actually as lots of guys here on this site are not "experts" like you and Coyote.
Many are simply looking for a solution to something going on with there bike...a  "what a guy should do", to a novice reading your stuff. Trust me, Mods are held to a higher standard.
Many are new members, or surfing, and see that you guys are "in charge" or "running the show", and hold your posts in much higher regard. Maybe they run their "new bikes to them" as a used bike they bought from someone, don't know the history, don't know how much oil to put in them, or how to solve simple blow by issues. You show pictures saying "IMO" dumping a oil vent line to the ground if fine, and it says to a novice...."the HTT mods do it, sounds good to me!
I sure hope your freewheeling advice doesn't come back to bite you in the ass-
Best of luck with it.

I personally have learned my lesson about venting to atmosphere without a catch can. You don't have to actually have an accident or drop your bike with oil on the tire to have severe detrimental effects of small amounts of oil spray getting on your tire or rear brake. For me I started noticing that I just wasn't getting what I'm used to for rear brake performance. This took thousands of miles  to get to this it didn't just happen  as soon as I put the vent in. I wasn't getting the stopping performance that I was before I began venting without a catch can. I pulled my brake pads and noticed there was a film of oil on the pads that was affecting the performance. I also could see I had some residue on my chrome rear wheel that didn't used to be there to that degree. It was clearly evident it came from the discharge of the vent. The oil residue had seeped into the layer of brake pads so I had no choice but to replace them. Once I put in a catch can the brake performance was noticeably better and I wasn't getting the residue on the rear wheel anymore.

No Cents

   ...it seems there are two opinions here. The rider has to make his/her decision on how they want to do it.
Either vent to the atmosphere and take the risk of possibly getting oil on the rear tire or brakes...or play it safe and vent to a catch can and remove the possibility of getting oil on the rear tire or brakes.  hummm   :scratch:
   I'll go with the safe side.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

locker55

Can we see a show of catch cans. Besides the tow behind one that FSG showed us. I believe all built motors (when hot rodding them) will build up blow by. This would make any and all oil spray anything behind the end of the hose being wind driven. Lets face the simple fact of why some of us vent out is because we don't want it on the side of the bike from the air filter. So if coming from filter you can bet it will come out of that hose end by the tire or not....lol
I remember someone making a nice one out of pvc and ran it down along the frame. one that could be emptied if I recall right.
Thanks for all the good info shared.

speedzter

An old pic' but still using the same breathers, currently on a 120 custom.
I get a very small amount of oil residue nearby from vapor, but never had a drop leak out.
Most of what comes out is obviously water vapor .
A catch can is the best idea, but this has worked for me.

[attach=0]

Hossamania

 I just vent to the ground under the motor. A little oil leaking from the tranny makes a little blow-by leaking out the tube kind of minor...

[attach=0]
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hossamania

No Cents had a nice post on his catch can that looked nice. Perhaps he'll post it up again. There have been quite a few good solutions posted over the years. It's been on my list to put one on, but then so has fixing that tranny leak for ten years. A guy has to have a list...
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.