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Best fix for trans oil transfer

Started by jstitan2017, September 29, 2019, 01:26:03 PM

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IronButt70

Quote from: PoorUB on November 06, 2019, 12:07:38 PM
I don't blame him. A $25,000-$30,000 should not have such simple to cure issues.

Re-engineer the tranny main shaft for a tighter fit of the release rod, put a simple oil seal at one end and vent the primary. Done deal. Either that or figure out why the primary has such a vacuum.

I just shake my head, it has been four model years and many are still not satisfied this issue is fixed.
How many model years did it take them to address the cam tensioners on the TC?
No one else put you on the road you're on. It's your own asphalt.

Dan89flstc

November 06, 2019, 06:46:08 PM #26 Last Edit: November 06, 2019, 06:54:49 PM by Dan89flstc
Quote from: kd on November 06, 2019, 12:25:55 PM
       The phoney vent bandaid "fix" just prevents vacuum from building.   It doesn't address the real problem.

If the so called "Phony vent band aid fix" stops the oil from transferring, the problem is solved...

The problem is oil transfer from the gearbox to the primary, not pressure here, not vacuum there etc... the problem is oil transfer...And the vent cures it.
US Navy Veteran
A&P Mechanic

kd

Quote from: Dan89flstc on November 06, 2019, 06:46:08 PM
Quote from: kd on November 06, 2019, 12:25:55 PM
       The phoney vent bandaid "fix" just prevents vacuum from building.   It doesn't address the real problem.

If the so called "Phony vent band aid fix" stops the oil from transferring, the problem is solved...

The problem is oil transfer from the gearbox to the primary, not pressure here, not vacuum there etc... the problem is oil transfer...And the vent cures it.


Well Dan, the TC engines didn't do it.  Where is the design change? The main drive bearing assembly.
If there isn't a pressure differential, what, if not a vacuum, causes the oil to leave the transmission and migrate to the primary chain case?  Maybe you could explain to me why a "vent" as you say solves the problem if there is no vacuum effect?
KD

Dan89flstc

Quote from: kd on November 06, 2019, 08:40:20 PM
Quote from: Dan89flstc on November 06, 2019, 06:46:08 PM
Quote from: kd on November 06, 2019, 12:25:55 PM
       The phoney vent bandaid "fix" just prevents vacuum from building.   It doesn't address the real problem.

If the so called "Phony vent band aid fix" stops the oil from transferring, the problem is solved...

The problem is oil transfer from the gearbox to the primary, not pressure here, not vacuum there etc... the problem is oil transfer...And the vent cures it.


Well Dan, the TC engines didn't do it.  Where is the design change? The main drive bearing assembly.
If there isn't a pressure differential, what, if not a vacuum, causes the oil to leave the transmission and migrate to the primary chain case?  Maybe you could explain to me why a "vent" as you say solves the problem if there is no vacuum effect?

So what if there is a vacuum, the solution is the vent, simple, problem solved. The problem is not vacuum or pressure, they are the cause of the problem (the actual problem is oil transfer)... The vent cures the problem.
US Navy Veteran
A&P Mechanic

kd

Carry on Dan.  You would make a good Harley service manager.  :crook:
KD

PoorUB

I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

rbabos

Quote from: kd on November 06, 2019, 08:40:20 PM
Quote from: Dan89flstc on November 06, 2019, 06:46:08 PM
Quote from: kd on November 06, 2019, 12:25:55 PM
       The phoney vent bandaid "fix" just prevents vacuum from building.   It doesn't address the real problem.

If the so called "Phony vent band aid fix" stops the oil from transferring, the problem is solved...

The problem is oil transfer from the gearbox to the primary, not pressure here, not vacuum there etc... the problem is oil transfer...And the vent cures it.


Well Dan, the TC engines didn't do it.  Where is the design change? The main drive bearing assembly.
If there isn't a pressure differential, what, if not a vacuum, causes the oil to leave the transmission and migrate to the primary chain case?  Maybe you could explain to me why a "vent" as you say solves the problem if there is no vacuum effect?
I can't believe that in the 4th year of M8 we are still talking about it, let alone accepting it . It's clearly related to a pressure differential of some form and HD chose a way to mask the problem and not actually nip it at the source. This whole fkg fiasco turned me right off of HD to the point I will never buy another new bike from them. Well that and a few other things I won't get into.
Ron

rbabos

Quote from: Dan89flstc on November 07, 2019, 05:26:59 AM
Quote from: kd on November 06, 2019, 08:40:20 PM
Quote from: Dan89flstc on November 06, 2019, 06:46:08 PM
Quote from: kd on November 06, 2019, 12:25:55 PM
       The phoney vent bandaid "fix" just prevents vacuum from building.   It doesn't address the real problem.

If the so called "Phony vent band aid fix" stops the oil from transferring, the problem is solved...

The problem is oil transfer from the gearbox to the primary, not pressure here, not vacuum there etc... the problem is oil transfer...And the vent cures it.


Well Dan, the TC engines didn't do it.  Where is the design change? The main drive bearing assembly.
If there isn't a pressure differential, what, if not a vacuum, causes the oil to leave the transmission and migrate to the primary chain case?  Maybe you could explain to me why a "vent" as you say solves the problem if there is no vacuum effect?

So what if there is a vacuum, the solution is the vent, simple, problem solved. The problem is not vacuum or pressure, they are the cause of the problem (the actual problem is oil transfer)... The vent cures the problem.
My understanding is not completely but reduces it to a lesser bitching level.
Ron

PoorUB

Quote from: Dan89flstc on November 07, 2019, 05:26:59 AM

So what if there is a vacuum, the solution is the vent, simple, problem solved. The problem is not vacuum or pressure, they are the cause of the problem (the actual problem is oil transfer)... The vent cures the problem.

Curing the problem would be addressing why the primary goes into a vacuum. Fix the crank seal, fix the sleeve the seal rides on. Putting a vent on the primary is a bandaid.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Thermodyne

The primary always vented through the trans, since the primary's went wet.  Nothing new there.

What changes is a slave cylinder sitting on the right end of the main shaft that holds oil.  Making the oil available to be pulled through.

You cant suck a trans dry through the main shaft.  Pretty quick it will be above the running level of the oil.  But you can sling oil into the pocket created by the slave cylinder.  Then suck it into the primary. 

So now look at all the ways to fix it. 

Redesign the crank bearing seal to eliminate any engine vacuum from entering the primary.  Even if its just a new seal, its big labor in the field.  And would probably create additional issues because of tech skill levels. 

Redesign the slave cylinder and or trap door.  Again big labor charge and more than $2 worth of parts.  Not to mention the cost of retooling the parts.

Cheap seal on the push rod.  Good idea, but didn't work. 

Self sealing push rod.  Opps, someone beat them to that one.  Would need to pay royalties and they don't always fix the issue.

Drill a hole in the primary.  Bingo!  Seems to work, and don't cost much to field install.  And its within the skill level of the tech force, so dealers can install them by the dozens.  I just wonder why they didn't spend another nickel and include a little debris cap for the hose.  Help keep the dust and water out. 
   

kd

 :agree:   with your 1st, 2nd and last points.  Preference to the first 2 then the last point would have no practical relevance.
KD

Dan89flstc

Quote from: kd on November 07, 2019, 05:36:34 AM
Carry on Dan.  You would make a good Harley service manager.  :crook:

No, I wouldn`t...

I`d get fired for calling somebody a dick.  :crook:
US Navy Veteran
A&P Mechanic

98fxstc

thread title is  'Best fix for trans oil transfer'

drill a hole in the back of the inner primary  :teeth:

not the most popular solution on a tech site
who would a thunk it    :hyst:

PoorUB

Quote from: 98fxstc on November 07, 2019, 03:26:27 PM
thread title is  'Best fix for trans oil transfer'

drill a hole in the back of the inner primary  :teeth:

not the most popular solution on a tech site
who would a thunk it    :hyst:

God forbid someone would want to fix the actual problem!
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

PoorUB

Quote from: Thermodyne on November 07, 2019, 09:37:04 AM

What changes is a slave cylinder sitting on the right end of the main shaft that holds oil.  Making the oil available to be pulled through.


But why wasn't a problem on the TC models with hydraulic clutch? The problem got out of control when the M8 showed up. Before then nobody ever hear of the issue.

I have a 2016 Limited, no transfer with it.

Cripes, HD had hyro clutches on the CVOs for many years with no issues. Pretty crazy how a company can take existing engineering and F it up!
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

kd

I believe it's because the redesigned trap door / clutch actuator assembly allowed oil to collect where the old design did not.
KD

cbumdumb

Is the bearing and seal not the same on touring and non touring models?

mike jesse

Found this today. It may be old news to some, but I found it informative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QolhZGpFULQ

FSG

good to see that they made the video BUT I don't understand why they don't see the cause of the issue

perhaps if they looked at a Hydraulic Clutch system instead of the Ball and Ramp system 


SE Road King

Thank you, everyone, for publishing your results.
Effin factory and dealers. I got this now... The only thing that I will add is a section of a sintered fuel filter stuffed into the end of the tube.
Cedar Creek Lake, Texas
Rock Stock 2017 FLHR, Vivid Black

Maddo Snr

Quote from: kd on November 06, 2019, 12:25:55 PM
I think it was already determined that the change of design to the engine drive side brg assembly construction allows engine crankcase vacuum to invade the primary and pull oil from / through the transmission main shaft.  The phoney vent bandaid "fix" just prevents vacuum from building.   It doesn't address the real problem.

True, the fix should be an engineering solution.

An AIM slave cylinder and a vent fixes them every time with the bonus of beautiful light clutch feel.

If the AIM s/c isn't fitted, a vent and a machined release passage in the s/c housing fixes them.

I can't support closing off the OEM primary venting system with fat-rods or seals, the primary needs to run at atmo IMO.
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108