Transmission leaking, diagnosis

[klammer76]

I developed a  leak from my SE OD6 transmission recently. Did a 400 mile ride and the next day a puddle on the ground. Nothing special about that ride vs any other. I installed the complete transmission new in 2017. It has 14,000 miles on it. No problems at all up to this point. It is in my 2002, 103" FLH. Mild build, (111HP/119TQ). No hole shots, wheelies etc.

Got a chance to get it apart today. Really kind of nasty, lube is Mobil 1 (have run it for years). Lot of gunk, almost looks like grease around the pulley. Assume a mix of lube, dirt, belt dust? Has a rust like color. Tranny came with a Jims mega nut installed from factory. Grabbed the pulley and noticed I could move it ever so slightly ( pulley loose). Removed the two socket heads and turned the nut off with my fingers. Removed the pulley, looks like it is the quad seal, leaking down the splines to primary side of pulley (back of pulley covered also). Can feel slight up/down play in the main shaft. Set up dial indicator and get .006 run out. Can't feel any end play but need to figure out how to isolate the bike on  my table to check w/o getting false reading.

So, what would allow the pulley to become loose? I didn't check it when I installed as it was factory new. Maybe a mistake but I have had 14,000 problem free miles. So, could this be a right side trap door bearing issue causing pulley to get loose taking out the quad seal? The large seal appears to be dry. S&S tapered race is where it should be. Member, djl had a similar problem a few years ago and his needle bearings in main drive gear walked. Going to pull the ipb race and large seal tomorrow.

When checking the shaft run out I measured off the S&S IPB race. I assume this should actually be done off the shaft itself correct? Transmissions are a new area for me.

Thanks,
klammer

[Pirsch Fire Wagon]

That is a Problem with the Cruise Drives.
Could be the Seal.
Could Be the Bearing.
Most probably the Main shaft Final Drive Bearing and Seal. $125 repair. 
Although, they didn't start showing up regularly until the mid-later 2k's. What year is the Transmission?

Is there ANY (any at all) movement of the shaft Laterally? If not, a Seal would perhaps get-er-done. If there is movement, Main shaft Final Drive Bearing and Seal. $125 repair (If you have the Tool).

[klammer76]

That is a Problem with the Cruise Drives.
Could be the Seal.
Could Be the Bearing.
Most probably the Main shaft Final Drive Bearing and Seal. $125 repair. 
Although, they didn't start showing up regularly until the mid-later 2k's. What year is the Transmission?

Is there ANY (any at all) movement of the shaft Laterally? If not, a Seal would perhaps get-er-done. If there is movement, Main shaft Final Drive Bearing and Seal. $125 repair (If you have the Tool).

Transmission is a Screamin Eagle over drive 6 speed. Bought it new in 2017 as a complete unit. If I am not mistaken, these were assembled by Jim's. Majority of the parts in this transmission are -03 parts.

Can't feel any movement pulling or pushing on main shaft (in& out) but need to fab up a mount for indicator to check end play. I can feel and see movement (on dial indicator) when holding the shaft and moving it up and down.

[les]

When you did the SE tranny, did you replace the pulley spacer, or did you re-install the old spacer?

[klammer76]

Haven't done anything yet, still figuring out what I need and the cause. I have a new spacer.

[Armin]

It could be a leaking quad seal that sits on the main shaft and seals against the 6th gear end.

Armin.

[koko3052]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

[les]

Haven't done anything yet, still figuring out what I need and the cause. I have a new spacer.

Ok, good.  One main cause of the stack coming loose is the spacer collapsing.  The new spacer, and of course quad seal, should solve the problem.  Also, make sure the main drive gear threads are totally clean for the large pulley nut.  I recommend quick dry electrical cleaner and using about 5 drops of red loctite on the nut threads.  It's not uncommon for the stack to come loose because of that darn spacer.

[Armin]

And make sure that you use the S&S spacer (inner bearing race) which has an inner shoulder that prevents walking inward.

Armin.

[FSG]

And make sure that you use the S&S spacer (inner bearing race) which has an inner shoulder that prevents walking inward.

Armin.

Do NOT call the S&S Inner Bearing Race a SPACER as it is NOT.

In the OP he states that "S&S tapered race is where it should be" so he's all good there.

[Armin]

@FSG

Ooops, sorry, my mistake!

Armin.

[Norton Commando]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

The oil looks nasty because it is mixed with tiny metal particles as a result of high frequency movement of the pulley relative to the sleeve gear on the transmission. The phenomena is called fretting and it results in a rust-like goo, which is what you're seeing here.

Jason

[smoserx1]

Sort of been there and done that.  The spacer spins and the resulting wear destroys the clamp load of the pulley nut, resulting in its being finger tight.  Chances are you will find a groove on the rear of the spacer.  It has happened to me twice, and the original time was the factory's doing.  Basically caused by not getting that pulley nut tight enough initially.  That is why the procedure calls for that torque plus additional degrees of rotation.  It needs to be unbelievably tight.  A new spacer and quad ring should take care of it, and do a couple of back to back tranny oil changes as the oil picks up some paste-like debris from the spun spacer.

[klammer76]

Sort of been there and done that.  The spacer spins and the resulting wear destroys the clamp load of the pulley nut, resulting in its being finger tight.  Chances are you will find a groove on the rear of the spacer.  It has happened to me twice, and the original time was the factory's doing.  Basically caused by not getting that pulley nut tight enough initially.  That is why the procedure calls for that torque plus additional degrees of rotation.  It needs to be unbelievably tight.  A new spacer and quad ring should take care of it, and do a couple of back to back tranny oil changes as the oil picks up some paste-like debris from the spun spacer.

That makes some sense. Long day away today so didn't do much. I removed the S&S race and no sign of leaking that I can see from the 5th gear. I did try to pull the spacer out but it will only come out so far then feels like a shoulder is hitting on the back of the large seal (I removed the spacer on my old 5 speed and it pulled right out). Will pull the seal and space as on when I get a chance. I have alway run mobil 1 synthetic gear lube in my transmissions. No issues. I trued Spectro 6 speed lube the summer of 2018. I switched back to mobil 1 this summer. That also may be the reason for the color. I have the lube in a pan and will look at it tomorrow, light not great in the garage at night. There was some gold flake in the lube that I could see.

Need to pull the right side cover also and have a look. Wondering about the trap door bearings. smoserx, your description sounds like what may have happened. I assumed it was assembled correctly. I should have removed the pulley nut and re torqued it to begin with. They had the IPB race .020 from the nose of the main drive gear from the factory. I removed it and installed the S&S race. That should have been a clue to check the pulley nut.

Very long day tomorrow, one funeral and one wake with a lot of miles in between so no work tomorrow on this. Hopefully later this weekend.

[klammer76]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

koko, I have the lube in a pan and will look at it tomorrow. There was some gold flake in the lube that I could see.

[klammer76]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

The oil looks nasty because it is mixed with tiny metal particles as a result of high frequency movement of the pulley relative to the sleeve gear on the transmission. The phenomena is called fretting and it results in a rust-like goo, which is what you're seeing here.

Jason

Is that due to loss of clamp load? It has always been very clean when I have removed the inner primary before and I have had it off several times.

[Norton Commando]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

The oil looks nasty because it is mixed with tiny metal particles as a result of high frequency movement of the pulley relative to the sleeve gear on the transmission. The phenomena is called fretting and it results in a rust-like goo, which is what you're seeing here.

Jason

Is that due to loss of clamp load? It has always been very clean when I have removed the inner primary before and I have had it off several times.

Yes, when you lose the pulley clamping force it becomes free to move a tiny bit with each revolution. It's almost microscopic movement but enough to gradually wear the metal away at all metal-to-metal interface areas.  The result is a very fine metal powder than soon becomes rust-like and when mixed with gear lube it turns to goo.

Jason

[les]

Sort of been there and done that.  The spacer spins and the resulting wear destroys the clamp load of the pulley nut, resulting in its being finger tight.  Chances are you will find a groove on the rear of the spacer.  It has happened to me twice, and the original time was the factory's doing.  Basically caused by not getting that pulley nut tight enough initially.  That is why the procedure calls for that torque plus additional degrees of rotation.  It needs to be unbelievably tight.  A new spacer and quad ring should take care of it, and do a couple of back to back tranny oil changes as the oil picks up some paste-like debris from the spun spacer.

In addition to the nut being unbelievably tight, the threads of the main drive gear need to be unbelievably clean.  Again, the quick dry electrical cleaner spray (AutoZone) gets those threads that way.  Red loctite too is required.

[klammer76]

Just my comment here, but that oil really does look nasty....what does the stuff that you drained out of the tranny look like?

The oil looks nasty because it is mixed with tiny metal particles as a result of high frequency movement of the pulley relative to the sleeve gear on the transmission. The phenomena is called fretting and it results in a rust-like goo, which is what you're seeing here.

Jason

Is that due to loss of clamp load? It has always been very clean when I have removed the inner primary before and I have had it off several times.

Yes, when you lose the pulley clamping force it becomes free to move a tiny bit with each revolution. It's almost microscopic movement but enough to gradually wear the metal away at all metal-to-metal interface areas.  The result is a very fine metal powder than soon becomes rust-like and when mixed with gear lube it turns to goo.

Jason

Jason & others, so my question is, what is the cause to lose the pulley clamping force? Not toght enough from the factory when assembled? This has been fine for 14,000 miles. Interestingly, the mega nut does not show any signs of loctite ever having been applied.

I am trying to determine the root cause for the loosening of the pulley so hopefully this doesn't happen again.

A couple of things I did notice recently:

- Last two rides, belt was making a rubbing/groaning sound at the front pulley when hot from a ride and pushing bike around the garage to park it Like belt rubbing on outer shoulder of front pulley. Never did this before. Belt was adjusted properly. This was causing me some concern.

Clutch also has been engaging further out from the grip this year. Thought the clutch was getting worn with the power and dyno tuning (was going to install an alto carbonite next spring). Lever also was a little sloppier when hot. I do run a Muller arm but this has never been an issue.

What are the symptoms of the right side trap door bearings having an issue, ie how do I determine if they are good, check for end play I assume?

Thanks

[les]

I'll give my opinion.  The critical location is where the spacer touches the inner race of the main tranny bearing.  I believe two things can happen.  First, of course, if the main nut comes just a little bit loose (because of improper cleaning, improper torque, and improper use of red Loctite) then the race starts to rub against the race and creates a groove.  Thus, loosening the stack.

The second of my opinions is highly controversial, and I'm sure I'll get some disagreement.  The torque on the nut is pretty big.  I think that some of the spacers are not hardened consistently during manufacturing.  We see this a lot with the case hardening of cams, where some of them wear through to the grey under belly too quickly, while others seem to last forever.  I believe that with an improperly made spacer, the spacer starts to collapse, or crush in a tiny bit so to speak.  Once even just a little bit of crush happens, then the stack gets loose, the race rubs against the inner race, a groove happens, and things go bad very quickly.  The house of cards falls down.  This might explain why a factory setup falls apart.  I know this is far fetched, but I've scratched my head about this too.  Let me give you a real-life example, and I realize it's only one data point.

I had a friend who installed a Baker DD6.  He didn't replace the spacer with new.  He only was able to ride the bike for a couple of weeks before the stack came loose.  Of course the spacer had a groove.  I told him that he should always use a new spacer, so when he did the repair he got a new spacer.  The second time, his bike is solid as a rock.

Bottom line, I really think the spacer is a weak point.  Maybe it's not as hard as the bearing material of the inner race.  So, there's my dumb opinion.  I'm a bit embarrassed to post this opinion, but after scratching my head about this maybe I'll learn the answer too.

[FXDBI]

Improper installation will cause it to be loose. Service manual says to make sure the faces of the nut and pulley have oil on them. Tighten up by hand and torque to 100Ft lbs , then back it off loose and re-torque to 35 ft lbs. Then scribe a 45 degree mark and tighten up to it. If the clamping plate holes don't line up to tighten only until they do, do not loosen to get the holes lined up. The spacer/ seal running face can be reused if its not wore. Makes no mention of not re-using it or it being a one time crush use. If the faces are not all surgically clean and lubed you will get a false torque initially and things are not all seated right only to come loose at a later date. It will also be loose if the bearing is going south and the endplay goes up taking the load off the nut. I do not think it has anything to do with the hardness of the spacer and is totally from assembly error if it loosens up after work has been preformed on it 2nd time lucky has some say. First time learning is what I say.  Bob

[kd]

"Clutch also has been engaging further out from the grip this year. Thought the clutch was getting worn with the power and dyno tuning (was going to install an alto carbonite next spring). Lever also was a little sloppier when hot. I do run a Muller arm but this has never been an issue."

FWIW, the free play in the lever grows as the temp rises in the transmission.  That's what you are noticing.  I adjust my Muller lever to barely showing free play when cold and use the internal clutch cable return spring modification to ensure the release bearing does not drag.  As everything comes up to temp that free play at the lever increases to more normal dimensions.

[les]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

[FXDBI]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

Well if its just a stack of solid metal and the factory set ups are coming loose points to a assembly problem, the factory is known for assembly problems, my 06 Dyna and the oops I forgot Loctite on the alt/comp assembly or the oops the shifter fork shaft fell out and I pulled so tight it bent and left a tell tale mark on the cover but put together anyhow it will make warranty.  Assembly problems can take time to show up, my transmission took 30,000km. I doubt like @#$% that the spacer is the root cause.  Bob

[klammer76]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

les, Good explanation. I have a new spacer and new 3 guyz pulley nut (mega nut style). I can't see where any loctite was used on this. For some reason at 14,000 mile mark it decided to come loose. I cleaned up the transmission today. Working on cleaning the main drive gear and pulley threads now. Wire brushed and electrical cleaner with wire wheel, tooth brush and brass brush. I have always used CRC Lectra-Motive. Poor mans parts cleaner is what I call it. Main drive gear pully threads have a slight gall in one area but nothing major. Want to get it a lot cleaner. Going to pull the large seal tomorrow and see what is up with the spacer and why it won't come out of the seal.

The drained tranny fluid had the brownish, rust color to it. I think this is due to draining the Spectro from the 2018 season and going back to mobil 1. I recall the spectro was a reddish color.

Couple of questions:

- To remove the large seal behind the pulley, small hole and a dent puller to pop it out?

- When installing the seals (large, quad and main shaft seal). Manual says light coat of trans lube on the inner seal and the quad. Do you guys put anything on the outside diameter of the seals or dry?

- Going to replace the shift shaft seal with double lip also. I have done these before.

[klammer76]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

Well if its just a stack of solid metal and the factory set ups are coming loose points to a assembly problem, the factory is known for assembly problems, my 06 Dyna and the oops I forgot Loctite on the alt/comp assembly or the oops the shifter fork shaft fell out and I pulled so tight it bent and left a tell tale mark on the cover but put together anyhow it will make warranty.  Assembly problems can take time to show up, my transmission took 30,000km. I doubt like @#$% that the spacer is the root cause.  Bob

Keep in mind this is a SE 6 speed. It is my understanding that these are assembled by Jims for Harley. I agree on assembly problems taking some time to show. I'm just glad it happened here at home where I am set up to fix it and not while we were out at Sturgis.

[smoserx1]

- To remove the large seal behind the pulley, small hole and a dent puller to pop it out?

- When installing the seals (large, quad and main shaft seal). Manual says light coat of trans lube on the inner seal and the quad. Do you guys put anything on the outside diameter of the seals or dry?

Klammer, whenever I have done this service on my bike I have removed the spacer first then used an ordinary small open end wrench to pry on the inside diameter of the large seal (where the spacer was).  I have always been able to remove the spacer with my fingers but didn't you say yours didn't want to come out?  If you can't get it out by hand you can probably drill a small hole on the OD of the seal and thread in a screw so you can pull/pry on that.  That is how I always remove the shifter shaft seal.  Be aware when you remove that large seal most of your tranny oil will spill out, so drain it first.  (Learned this the hard way).  I have also always put a light coat of blue loctite on the OD of that large seal and just pushed it in by hand.  If it sounds like I have done this allot it is because I change all these seals every time the inner primary is off no matter what.  You didn't mention the 5th gear/mainshaft seal (the one between the input & output shafts) but I would change that too.  I have always gotten it out with a small flat screwdriver (space is tight).  I now have that Lisle small seal puller I will try next time but the screwdriver works fine prying from the inside out gradually in a circle from the inside diameter.  Usually takes me about 30 or so iterations to get it but it always comes out, and I use the tube part of the race installer tool along with an old race (or piece of PVC pipe) and the clutch hub nut to install a new seal.  Never had an issue doing this.  Good luck!

[MikeL]

In addition to the quad seal I also apply a bead of rtv on the inside of the spacer it keeps the oil from tracking up the splines .

                                                                                                      MIKE

[les]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

Well if its just a stack of solid metal and the factory set ups are coming loose points to a assembly problem, the factory is known for assembly problems, my 06 Dyna and the oops I forgot Loctite on the alt/comp assembly or the oops the shifter fork shaft fell out and I pulled so tight it bent and left a tell tale mark on the cover but put together anyhow it will make warranty.  Assembly problems can take time to show up, my transmission took 30,000km. I doubt like @#$% that the spacer is the root cause.  Bob

Keep in mind this is a SE 6 speed. It is my understanding that these are assembled by Jims for Harley. I agree on assembly problems taking some time to show. I'm just glad it happened here at home where I am set up to fix it and not while we were out at Sturgis.

The SE was probably a gear set you got and installed?  So, nothing to do with assembly problems from H-D.  Plus, one instance I fixed was a 1999 Road Glide, where the pulley nut came loose.  It's not factory assembly problems, it's the spacer.  Some of them give way after a while, probably like how some of the S&S cams wear through.  Inconsistent heat treating of the spacer, or that the vibration of the inner race against the spacer over time just collapses the spacer.  The 1999 Road Glide has 80K miles on it when it showed up in my garage because the stack came loose.  That ain't no factory assembly situation.

[klammer76]

The bearing endplay is not related to this problem.  The stack starts from the gear side of the main drive gear, then the inner race, then the spacer, then the pulley, then the nut.  A stack of solid metal, no bearing involved.  So, that should remain solid regardless of a sloppy bearing.

The more I think about it, the more I'm getting convinced that it's the spacer.  Another weak spot on an H-D, and is why we see factory setups coming loose.

Well if its just a stack of solid metal and the factory set ups are coming loose points to a assembly problem, the factory is known for assembly problems, my 06 Dyna and the oops I forgot Loctite on the alt/comp assembly or the oops the shifter fork shaft fell out and I pulled so tight it bent and left a tell tale mark on the cover but put together anyhow it will make warranty.  Assembly problems can take time to show up, my transmission took 30,000km. I doubt like @#$% that the spacer is the root cause.  Bob

Keep in mind this is a SE 6 speed. It is my understanding that these are assembled by Jims for Harley. I agree on assembly problems taking some time to show. I'm just glad it happened here at home where I am set up to fix it and not while we were out at Sturgis.

The SE was probably a gear set you got and installed?  So, nothing to do with assembly problems from H-D.  Plus, one instance I fixed was a 1999 Road Glide, where the pulley nut came loose.  It's not factory assembly problems, it's the spacer.  Some of them give way after a while, probably like how some of the S&S cams wear through.  Inconsistent heat treating of the spacer, or that the vibration of the inner race against the spacer over time just collapses the spacer.  The 1999 Road Glide has 80K miles on it when it showed up in my garage because the stack came loose.  That ain't no factory assembly situation.

It was the complete transmission with case, fully assembled. Not disputing that the spacer was or could have been a part of the cause but I question how well it was torqued during assembly. I see no evidence of loctite having been used either. I'll check the size of the spacer against the new one and the one from my 5 speed. On my original 5 speed, It took the most powerful 1/2" air impact they had a the garage I hang out at to get the pulley nut to break free. It strained a lot. The only issue I had with that tranny was the IPB race walking in.

[klammer76]

- To remove the large seal behind the pulley, small hole and a dent puller to pop it out?

- When installing the seals (large, quad and main shaft seal). Manual says light coat of trans lube on the inner seal and the quad. Do you guys put anything on the outside diameter of the seals or dry?

Klammer, whenever I have done this service on my bike I have removed the spacer first then used an ordinary small open end wrench to pry on the inside diameter of the large seal (where the spacer was).  I have always been able to remove the spacer with my fingers but didn't you say yours didn't want to come out?  If you can't get it out by hand you can probably drill a small hole on the OD of the seal and thread in a screw so you can pull/pry on that.  That is how I always remove the shifter shaft seal.  Be aware when you remove that large seal most of your tranny oil will spill out, so drain it first.  (Learned this the hard way).  I have also always put a light coat of blue loctite on the OD of that large seal and just pushed it in by hand.  If it sounds like I have done this allot it is because I change all these seals every time the inner primary is off no matter what.  You didn't mention the 5th gear/mainshaft seal (the one between the input & output shafts) but I would change that too.  I have always gotten it out with a small flat screwdriver (space is tight).  I now have that Lisle small seal puller I will try next time but the screwdriver works fine prying from the inside out gradually in a circle from the inside diameter.  Usually takes me about 30 or so iterations to get it but it always comes out, and I use the tube part of the race installer tool along with an old race (or piece of PVC pipe) and the clutch hub nut to install a new seal.  Never had an issue doing this.  Good luck!

Yup, going to do the 5th gear main shaft seal also. I have the Lisle seal puller also and it works like a charm. Have the Jims install tool for the seal, also works well.

[Geezer_Glider]

Remember also that if the spline fit of the drive pulley to the output gear splines isn't tight that no matter how tight the nut is it will eventually allow the working back and forth to wear the spacer, nut or pulley and loosen the stack. Then the fretting wear as mentioned and everything just goes down hill. With a stout engine and a heavy bagger that spline fit can rock back and forth no matter how tight that nut is.
Just saying,
R Meyer

[FXDBI]

Remember also that if the spline fit of the drive pulley to the output gear splines isn't tight that no matter how tight the nut is it will eventually allow the working back and forth to wear the spacer, nut or pulley and loosen the stack. Then the fretting wear as mentioned and everything just goes down hill. With a stout engine and a heavy bagger that spline fit can rock back and forth no matter how tight that nut is.
Just saying,
R Meyer

And then you have a loose nut @ xxx number of miles.  Nothing to do with the spacer being sub standard.   Bob

[les]

Remember also that if the spline fit of the drive pulley to the output gear splines isn't tight that no matter how tight the nut is it will eventually allow the working back and forth to wear the spacer, nut or pulley and loosen the stack. Then the fretting wear as mentioned and everything just goes down hill. With a stout engine and a heavy bagger that spline fit can rock back and forth no matter how tight that nut is.
Just saying,
R Meyer

And then you have a loose nut @ xxx number of miles.  Nothing to do with the spacer being sub standard.   Bob

And nothing to do with improper assembly.

Just to note on a real-life case where I worked on a bike where the pulley sort of malformed the spline teeth a little because the stack came loose.  The guy didn't have much money, so what I did was to get a new pulley only.  After cleaning everything up really good, I applied red Loctite (lots of it) to the splines of the new pulley, lots of red to the nut, and put it back together.  It's still holding together after 30K miles.

I thought of this because one job I did years ago (on an Evo) I could not get the pulley off the splines without a puller.  I beat on that pulley to come off, from the other side, but could not budge it.  When I pulled the pulley off with the puller, I found that whoever before me had put red Loctite all over the splines and that's what was making it so hard to remove the pulley.  The bike is an 88", so it don't put out any appreciable power.  Nevertheless, first hand true story.

[FXDBI]

Remember also that if the spline fit of the drive pulley to the output gear splines isn't tight that no matter how tight the nut is it will eventually allow the working back and forth to wear the spacer, nut or pulley and loosen the stack. Then the fretting wear as mentioned and everything just goes down hill. With a stout engine and a heavy bagger that spline fit can rock back and forth no matter how tight that nut is.
Just saying,
R Meyer

And then you have a loose nut @ xxx number of miles.  Nothing to do with the spacer being sub standard.   Bob

And nothing to do with improper assembly.

Just to note on a real-life case where I worked on a bike where the pulley sort of malformed the spline teeth a little because the stack came loose.  The guy didn't have much money, so what I did was to get a new pulley only.  After cleaning everything up really good, I applied red Loctite (lots of it) to the splines of the new pulley, lots of red to the nut, and put it back together.  It's still holding together after 30K miles.

I thought of this because one job I did years ago (on an Evo) I could not get the pulley off the splines without a puller.  I beat on that pulley to come off, from the other side, but could not budge it.  When I pulled the pulley off with the puller, I found that whoever before me had put red Loctite all over the splines and that's what was making it so hard to remove the pulley.  The bike is an 88", so it don't put out any appreciable power.  Nevertheless, first hand true story.

Guess who ever worked on that evo before you realized the spline was loose on the pulley and took some corrective measures in his assembly procedure to ensure it wasn't a problem.    Bob

[FSG]

a lot of these problems are because it's still old school design that has carried over from decades ago

IMO the clamping surface area of the spacer isn't great enough and what there is of it is reduced by the taper/bevel so that it doesn't catch or damage the seal as it's inserted

same problem with the rotors and the crankshaft spacer

I'd be making/machining a plate to go inside the pulley with an ID larger so that it could be welded then machined flat

then make a one way only spacer similar to what I've done with the charging rotor

[klammer76]

Did some measurements tonight and then pulled the large seal and the main drive gear oil seal. the reason the spacer didn't want to pull out from the large seal is it has a sharp burr on the end of the spacer (inboard chamfered side). This was catching the seal lip. Can feel it with my finger but can't really see it.

The used spacer measured .599 at four separate locations (12,3,6,9 o'clock)

The new 33344-94 spacer measured .599 at the same four locations.

Trying to find the used, 48,000 mile spacer from my old 5 speed. Will measure that if I can find it.

outer needle bearing measures .315, .314, .314, .315 from end of main drive gear.

Had a little harder time measuring the main shaft run out. Appears to be .0035 turning the shaft.

With indicator on main shaft and pushing up on the shaft I get .005

[Karl H.]

When my pulley lost its clamping force the splines got damaged rapidly. The shaft splines were still fine. The red arrows show the original shape of the splines.

Don't forget to oil the mating surface of the nut before tightening.

[attach=0,msg1318318]

[klammer76]

When my pulley lost its clamping force the splines got damaged rapidly. The shaft splines were still fine. The red arrows show the original shape of the splines.

Don't forget to oil the mating surface of the nut before tightening.

[attach=0,msg1318318]

Thanks Karl. I checked mine and it looks good. I don't think this was loose for long?

Sorry if these pictures aren't clear with the back ground, tried it with a white paper towel behind and came out dark.

[klammer76]

I checked the runout of the mainshaft and also vertical movement as I can feel some up & down movement.

A question for those here with way more experience than me checking things like this; in the video you can see my starting mark (black pen mark). Indicator is on zero. One revolution shows .0025 runout but doesn't return to zero at starting mark. Why is that (cheap equipment?)? I also seem to show different readings by third rotation. Not the easiest thing to isolate the indicator. Magnetic base was on the frame stamped steel cross member. This was checked was done with seals, spacer and pulley removed.

Apologize for the loud music, wasn't really that loud in the garage, at least I didn't think so but I'm 3/4 deaf anyway.

SM says .003 max for runout. Should I be concerned here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_JvcU-zwJE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xix-MS57XkM

[FXDBI]

I checked the runout of the mainshaft and also vertical movement as I can feel some up & down movement.

A question for those here with way more experience than me checking things like this; in the video you can see my starting mark (black pen mark). Indicator is on zero. One revolution shows .0025 runout but doesn't return to zero at starting mark. Why is that (cheap equipment?)? I also seem to show different readings by third rotation. Not the easiest thing to isolate the indicator. Magnetic base was on the frame stamped steel cross member. This was checked was done with seals, spacer and pulley removed.

Apologize for the loud music, wasn't really that loud in the garage, at least I didn't think so but I'm 3/4 deaf anyway.

SM says .003 max for runout. Should I be concerned here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_JvcU-zwJE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xix-MS57XkM

Well your at the max run out now from what I see on that dial.  Bob

[PoorUB]

Maybe I  am missing something,  but I seem to remember the input shaft being able to move around quite a bit without the support of the inner primary.

Isn't the runout spec with the inner primary in place?

[klammer76]

Did some measurements tonight and then pulled the large seal and the main drive gear oil seal. the reason the spacer didn't want to pull out from the large seal is it has a sharp burr on the end of the spacer (inboard chamfered side). This was catching the seal lip. Can feel it with my finger but can't really see it.

The used spacer measured .599 at four separate locations (12,3,6,9 o'clock)

The new 33344-94 spacer measured .599 at the same four locations.

Trying to find the used, 48,000 mile spacer from my old 5 speed. Will measure that if I can find it.

outer needle bearing measures .315, .314, .314, .315 from end of main drive gear.

Had a little harder time measuring the main shaft run out. Appears to be .0035 turning the shaft.

With indicator on main shaft and pushing up on the shaft I get .005

I found the spacer from my used (48,000 mile) transmission. The pulley nut on this transmission never came loose and was a bear to remove.

The spacer measured 0.600 at the 4 points that I measured.

[klammer76]

I checked the runout of the mainshaft and also vertical movement as I can feel some up & down movement.

A question for those here with way more experience than me checking things like this; in the video you can see my starting mark (black pen mark). Indicator is on zero. One revolution shows .0025 runout but doesn't return to zero at starting mark. Why is that (cheap equipment?)? I also seem to show different readings by third rotation. Not the easiest thing to isolate the indicator. Magnetic base was on the frame stamped steel cross member. This was checked was done with seals, spacer and pulley removed.

Apologize for the loud music, wasn't really that loud in the garage, at least I didn't think so but I'm 3/4 deaf anyway.

SM says .003 max for runout. Should I be concerned here?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_JvcU-zwJE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xix-MS57XkM

Well your at the max run out now from what I see on that dial.  Bob

Thanks Bob. That is what I was seeing also and wanted to confirm I was doing it correctly. What causes this, MDG bearing needs replacement? Needle bearings? Trap door bearings? The 2002 SM does not detail this at all. Surprised with the low miles.

[klammer76]

Maybe I  am missing something,  but I seem to remember the input shaft being able to move around quite a bit without the support of the inner primary.

Isn't the runout spec with the inner primary in place?

PoorUB,

I went back and read the entire transmission section of my 2002 SM. It does not address checking runout at all, just lists the service limits (0.003). The vertical free movement that I can feel and see on the indicator could possibly be the natural play in the large roller bearing while unsupported by the inner primary as you mentioned? Possibly the needle bearings? I don't think the runout could be checked with the inner on?

If your SM has different info please let me know.

Thanks

[TN]

Fixing to pull my inner primary off and figure out the leak behind the drive pulley. I installed a DD7 this year (less than 10k miles) and upon returning home on a short road trip I noticed a oil spot, upon further inspection it is red, I'm using spectro in trans right now. I'm hoping for a simple fix.

[klammer76]

Fixing to pull my inner primary off and figure out the leak behind the drive pulley. I installed a DD7 this year (less than 10k miles) and upon returning home on a short road trip I noticed a oil spot, upon further inspection it is red, I'm using spectro in trans right now. I'm hoping for a simple fix.

Mine wound up being the quad seal leaking due to the pulley nut becoming loose.

[klammer76]

Continuing on with this project/story:

I replaced all seals (quad, large case seal, MDG sea & shift shaft seal w/double lip). New pulley spacer, new 3 guyz pulley nut (to replace the SE/Jims which is still fine), Red 271 loctite with small smear on pulley face and back of pulley nut. All torqued to 60 ft lbs then 40* (what a treat that is).

My new question, everything works fine BUT if I hold the pulley and pull out straight and push in I can feel & hear some play (end play). This is not play in the pulley on the splines it's the MDG moving laterally. Very minute but some play. Is this normal? (14,000 miles on this trans).

I actually went and felt my original 5 speed transmission and I feel the same play (48,000 miles).

Everything went together fine. The MDG seal was a bit difficult (I have the correct installer tool) and need to be tapped in.

Just looking to see if this is normal or if there is a MDG bearing issue?

Thanks,
Klammer

[les]

The main drive gear gets pressed into the inner race of the big main bearing.  Then the stack gets tightened all the way to the pulley with the big nut.  So, that stack is sound as a pound based on how you described you installed it.

The reason it's got play is because if you had the big tranny bearing on the bench and pushed and pulled on the inner race, you'd feel some play.  If there was not at least a little play, then the balls against the races would be too tight.  With the pulley on, it's easier to push and pull and feel this play.

[klammer76]

The main drive gear gets pressed into the inner race of the big main bearing.  Then the stack gets tightened all the way to the pulley with the big nut.  So, that stack is sound as a pound based on how you described you installed it.

The reason it's got play is because if you had the big tranny bearing on the bench and pushed and pulled on the inner race, you'd feel some play.  If there was not at least a little play, then the balls against the races would be too tight.  With the pulley on, it's easier to push and pull and feel this play.

Thanks les. I appreciate it.