Help needed with clutch adjustment with cowpie / rotary four speed transmission

[2017FLHTK]

Hello,

I recently picked up a 1979 FL. It is equipped with a cowpie / rotary top four speed transmission and the late '79 clutch release lever on top of the transmission. At some point the factory oil feed line to the primary was blocked off and the primary was sealed / isolated.

I'm having ongoing issues with clutch drag. I attempted to adjust the clutch via the "wet clutch" procedures in the Factory Service Manual (e.g. setting 13/16 inches between the release lever and the top of the transmission rotary top cover and ending up with 1/16 inch free play at that clutch lever on the handlebar):

1) Stand vehicle upright and level.
2) Remove the clutch cable from the release lever.
3) Remove the clutch inspection cover.
4) See Figure 6-29. Loosen locknut (2) and turn adjuster screw (1) to position the release lever 13/16 in. from the tower on transmission cover (see Figure 6-30). Apply light pressure to the release lever to eliminate free play.


5) Use allen wrench to hold adjuster screw in place and tighten locknut (2).
6) Attach clutch cable to release lever.
7) See Figure 6-31.  Turn the adjusting screw (1) outward until 1/16 in. clutch lever free plat is established.  Tighten locknut (2).

8 ) Check primary chaincase lubricant level.
9) Install clutch inspection cover and new nylon washers to screws and tighten.



I'm using Bel-Ray VTwin Primary Chaincase Lubricant, with enough oil poured in to the primary such that the clutch hub basket slings the oil on to the primary chain:




Since that procedures above didn't seem to work, I took a look at the "dry clutch" adjustment procedures in the Factory Service Manual:

1. See Figure 6-23.  Move the release lever forward as far as it will go.  Measure the clearance as shown.  If measurement is equal to the distance shown, proceed to Step 6.  If measurement is not equal, proceed with steps 2 through 5.  [I have the LATE 1979 AND LATER configuration release lever on my transmission]

2. See Figure 6-22.  Loosen the locknut (2).  Turn the adjusting sleeves (1) all the way into the bracket (3).

3.  See Figure 6-24.  Remove the clutch cover on the primary cover.  Loosen the push rod locknut (1) and turn the screw (2) outward so there is no tension on the push rod.

4.  See Figure 6-22.  Turn the adjusting sleeve (1) outward until the proper measurement as shown in Figure 6-23 is obtained.  Tighten the locknut.


5.  See Figure 6-24.  Turn the screw (2) inward until contact is made with the push rod, then back off 1/8 turn.  Tighten the locknut (1).


If the clutch slips after performing Steps 1-5, proceed to Step 6.

6. See Figure 6-24.  Increase the tension on the spring adjust nuts (3) ½ turn at a time until clutch holds.  Test after each ½ turn by cranking the engine with the rear wheel raised off the ground.  Do not increase spring tension any more than is necessary to make the clutch hold.

Note

A new clutch is assembled so the distance from the pressure plate edge (4, Figure 6-24) to the release disc (5, Figure 6-24) is exactly 1-1/32 in.  If springs are compressed so this distance is 7/8 in. or less, the clutch will probably not disengage.

7.  Check the distance between the pressure plate edge and release disc to make sure it is equal at all points.
8. Perform Steps 1-5 again.



At this point I'm pretty confused as to how to properly adjust the clutch. When the bike left the factory it was setup as a dry clutch, with lubrication being provided by the oiler coming off the oil pump. Obviously my primary is now a wet setup (with original primary oil feeder lines blocked off). However, the pushrod in the bike is a slotted style, as seen in the pics for the dry clutch adjustment, as opposed to one that is adjusted via an allen wrench (like in the pic for the wet clutch adjustment). Should I be using the wet clutch or dry clutch adjustment procedure?

When I got out a ruler and measured the distance between the pressure plate and the releasing disc (as directed in the dry clutch adjustment procedure) I found that it is set at approximately 11/16 of an inch. That's compressed way to tight per the dry clutch setup instructions. The wet clutch assembly procedures only instruct you to "tighten the bolts to 6.5 - 8 ft-lbs", and then give no further guidance as to what the distance should be between the adjuster plate and the spring diaphragm.

Also, can any one help identify what type of clutch hub is installed? The pictures in the service manual show a three stud clutch hub for the dry clutch and a four stud clutch hub for the wet clutch, whereas I have a five stud clutch hub currently installed in the bike. Any ideas if it's an aftermarket part, or a later model OEM part retro-fitted on? What is the black ring outside the pressure plate there for?


To recap, I'm trying to find the answer to these questions:
1) Should I be using the Factory Service Manual wet clutch or dry clutch adjustment procedures? Or some other procedure?
2) For my configuration clutch / transmission, do I need to decrease the tension on the adjustment plates?
3) What manufacture / type clutch hub is currently installed on my bike?

Thanks guys!

[96flhpi]

Regardless of the fact that the oil doesn't circulate it is still a dry clutch.  Follow the adjustment for dry clutch.  Also you appear to have an aftermarket aluminum releasing disc rather than the stock one.  The stock spring tension (pressure plate to releasing disc) measurements probably don't apply - it's really more of a starting point anyway.  If you've got the arm to turret, push rod, and cable measurements set correctly loosen the adjusting nuts on the pressure plate until it's better.

[FSG]

looks to be way too much oil in the primary for starters, then ....

[96flhpi]

Or hope that someone else has the same set up and can give you a starting measurement for that disc.  Like I said it's not in stone.  On my stock set up I start at the 1-1/32" then tighten 1/2 turn at a time until it doesn't slip anymore.  Also make sure the primary chain is adjusted correctly that'll affect it too.

[96flhpi]

looks to be way too much oil in the primary for starters, then ....

Yep that'll gum it all up too.  I fill until the oil just touches the bottom of the outer shell with the bike on its kick stand.  I like ATF type F, and have Alto dry/wet plates, use whatever works for you.

[Ohio HD]

The 13/16" measure is just to get the clutch arm at just over a 90° angle to the cable. Then as was mentioned, it's a dry clutch, regardless of it having lube in there, adjust accordingly. Also mentioned, looks like way too much fluid. Most aluminum pressure plates, the spring retainer to the pressure plate is 5/8". 

Not knowing history on it, but it seems that it's been worked on due to the pressure plate and fluid. Chain alignment effects clutch drag, chain tension effects clutch drag, etc., etc. You gotta start at the beginning in some cases.

A four speed clutch properly setup will engage from neutral smoother and quieter than an Evo or TC setup.

[2017FLHTK]

Regardless of the fact that the oil doesn't circulate it is still a dry clutch.  Follow the adjustment for dry clutch.  Also you appear to have an aftermarket aluminum releasing disc rather than the stock one.  The stock spring tension (pressure plate to releasing disc) measurements probably don't apply - it's really more of a starting point anyway.  If you've got the arm to turret, push rod, and cable measurements set correctly loosen the adjusting nuts on the pressure plate until it's better.

Good feedback.  Thanks for the assist!

looks to be way too much oil in the primary for starters, then ....

Huh, I thought that was the correct height, i.e. enough to ensure that the clutch hub would splash oil on to the chain. 

[2017FLHTK]

The 13/16" measure is just to get the clutch arm at just over a 90° angle to the cable. Then as was mentioned, it's a dry clutch, regardless of it having lube in there, adjust accordingly. Also mentioned, looks like way too much fluid. Most aluminum pressure plates, the spring retainer to the pressure plate is 5/8". 

Not knowing history on it, but it seems that it's been worked on due to the pressure plate and fluid. Chain alignment effects clutch drag, chain tension effects clutch drag, etc., etc. You gotta start at the beginning in some cases.

I'll drain some oil out.

A four speed clutch properly setup will engage from neutral smoother and quieter than an Evo or TC setup.

I've only ridden the bike once.  It most certainly does NOT shift smooth.  I had to stomp on the shifter to move between gears, the clutch dragged as soon as it was shifted from neutral in to gear, and it was impossible to find neutral once it was running.  Hopefully once I get his all sorted out it'll ride a little better.... 

[96flhpi]

Like I said I do it to the bottom of the outer shell on the side stand and every time I've had to go into the primary everything is nice and wet.  As long as the starter gear is in contact with the oil it'll splash.  If the clutch plates aren't for a wet clutch the oil will gum them up so you want enough to keep the chain wet not enough to soak the plates.

[fbn ent]

Too much oil for sure. The chain will pick it up and throw it all over the place when it is to the bottom of the basket. Not very much, only a cup and some IIRC.

You have a five stud clutch hub there. The clutch plate is a heavier aluminum one and the black plate is an old Balance Master I think. Still have both on mine although the three stud one has always worked fine for me.

You may have to take the plates out and clean them if the are too oil soaked. That will give you a good chance to check everything out since you really aren't sure what you have.

[HarleyCharley]

Both of my shovelheads have sealed primaries and I use 6 oz. of lube. Always less than 8 oz.

[Ohio HD]

Both of my shovelheads have sealed primaries and I use 6 oz. of lube. Always less than 8 oz.

  I think I used 8 oz., but I agree, very little needed.

[96flhpi]

Also, if you do have to take it apart to clean the plates look for wear (grooves) on the clutch hub studs.  I had a pretty worn hub for ten years and although it worked fine the clutch, primary and final drive chain adjustments all had to be perfect for smooth shifting and easy neutral.  I do it, it'd be great for 3-6 weeks then slowly it would get harder again.  Replaced the hub over the winter and after the initial set up all I've had to do is the final chain adjustment once.

[MikeL]

I converted my shovel to isolated primary 8 oz of atf does the trick. I had a dragging problem also. What I had to do was pull the friction and steel plates out and clean with brake clean. Running with the motor oil drip created a sticky sludge. Once the sludge is gone your good to go. The atf doesn't clean well
When I first did the conversion I did not run the primary oil low. 1 qt was the fill and the people behind me weren't very happy with the oil spray.

                                                                                                      MIKE

[72fl]

I use to take my plates out 2-3 times a season and clean them with Mineral Spirits and scuff them up on concrete surface, when reinstalling, Start with loosening the clutch CABLE adjuster,'til your clutch LEVER is "sloppy-loose"

Then loosen lock-nut on CLUTCH adjuster..turn the screw in 'til it seats..turn it back-out about 1/2 turn..and,hold it RIGHT-THERE while you retighten the lock nut

Then go back to your clutch CABLE adjuster..turn it out (expanding) 'til you have only about 1/8 to 1/4 inch of LEVER free-play...tighten that lock nut..and you're done.

Make sure you're Primary Chain is around 5/8" deflection when cold give or take an 1/8.

Lastly what I ended up doing as I was finally able to put in a Diaphram Clutch, I went with a Rivera Pro and it has to be the BEST investment of the Ol Shovel as now it shifts like Butter and finding Neutral when its running is so ez. Rivera went out of business, but a long time employee has opened up American Prime and they are selling the same style now. I have also heard of folks using the Barnett Scorpion, I have zero experience with the Barnett. If possible and you have the funds do yourself a Favor and make the switch + - close to $500 and you have the experience to put one in as you have done it with your current set up.    

[fbn ent]

You sure that is what you did on a cow pie Shovel? Never ever heard of that.

[a_disalvo]

Also, if you do have to take it apart to clean the plates look for wear (grooves) on the clutch hub studs.  I had a pretty worn hub for ten years and although it worked fine the clutch, primary and final drive chain adjustments all had to be perfect for smooth shifting and easy neutral.  I do it, it'd be great for 3-6 weeks then slowly it would get harder again.  Replaced the hub over the winter and after the initial set up all I've had to do is the final chain adjustment once.

I always drilled the holes out 1/32" to compensate for any grooves on the studs, cheap, easy fix. Frank

[96flhpi]

Also, if you do have to take it apart to clean the plates look for wear (grooves) on the clutch hub studs.  I had a pretty worn hub for ten years and although it worked fine the clutch, primary and final drive chain adjustments all had to be perfect for smooth shifting and easy neutral.  I do it, it'd be great for 3-6 weeks then slowly it would get harder again.  Replaced the hub over the winter and after the initial set up all I've had to do is the final chain adjustment once.

I always drilled the holes out 1/32" to compensate for any grooves on the studs, cheap, easy fix. Frank

How does that work?  Not being wise but wouldn't the larger holes still get hung up in the grooves?

[a_disalvo]

For some reason they do not!! Just one of those things I found to work. Frank

[Burnout]

The oil level in the picture is way too high.

8oz is recommended, more is not better, just enough for the ring gear to throw up oil. Not the bottom of the basket or the bottom of the derby.

Another problem point is to adjust the clutch so that the pressure plate releases flat, if it tips it will drag and mess with shifting.
Sometimes the springs are not all the same tension and you may need to juggle the spring locations to equalize the pressure.
You only need to do this if you find the amount of adjustment varies excessively between the nuts.
So release the clutch and spin the pressure plate and watch for it to wobble, tighten the nuts on the high side.

[2017FLHTK]

I pulled the clutch stack apart today.  It was very productive because it helped me definitively discover that I have a dry clutch hub shell setup (with an aftermarket releasing disc and five stud clutch hub).









I found a light film of oil on most of the clutch plates.  I have them clutch sitting in a bath of white gas for a few hours.  Later tonight I'm going to pull them out and recondition per the recommendations from Harley:



I'm happy, because it gives me a starting point with regards to the correct procedure to use for properly setting up / adjusting the clutch now that I know that I'm supposed to use the "dry clutch" procedures in the factory service manual.

[2017FLHTK]

I use to take my plates out 2-3 times a season and clean them with Mineral Spirits and scuff them up on concrete surface, when reinstalling, Start with loosening the clutch CABLE adjuster,'til your clutch LEVER is "sloppy-loose"

Then loosen lock-nut on CLUTCH adjuster..turn the screw in 'til it seats..turn it back-out about 1/2 turn..and,hold it RIGHT-THERE while you retighten the lock nut

Then go back to your clutch CABLE adjuster..turn it out (expanding) 'til you have only about 1/8 to 1/4 inch of LEVER free-play...tighten that lock nut..and you're done.

Make sure you're Primary Chain is around 5/8" deflection when cold give or take an 1/8.

Lastly what I ended up doing as I was finally able to put in a Diaphram Clutch, I went with a Rivera Pro and it has to be the BEST investment of the Ol Shovel as now it shifts like Butter and finding Neutral when its running is so ez. Rivera went out of business, but a long time employee has opened up American Prime and they are selling the same style now. I have also heard of folks using the Barnett Scorpion, I have zero experience with the Barnett. If possible and you have the funds do yourself a Favor and make the switch + - close to $500 and you have the experience to put one in as you have done it with your current set up.    

I'm cleaning the plates now.  Hopefully between that'll help contribute to getting everything setup correctly, along with the proper adjustment technique.

I'll have to see if the wifey will look the other way on that American Prime clutch purchase over the winter. 

The oil level in the picture is way too high.

8oz is recommended, more is not better, just enough for the ring gear to throw up oil. Not the bottom of the basket or the bottom of the derby.

Another problem point is to adjust the clutch so that the pressure plate releases flat, if it tips it will drag and mess with shifting.
Sometimes the springs are not all the same tension and you may need to juggle the spring locations to equalize the pressure.
You only need to do this if you find the amount of adjustment varies excessively between the nuts.
So release the clutch and spin the pressure plate and watch for it to wobble, tighten the nuts on the high side.

I'll be sure to fill the primary with less oil when I button everything back up.

Great tip on ensuring equal input on the pressure plate.  I'll be sure to use that technique!

Also, if you do have to take it apart to clean the plates look for wear (grooves) on the clutch hub studs.  I had a pretty worn hub for ten years and although it worked fine the clutch, primary and final drive chain adjustments all had to be perfect for smooth shifting and easy neutral.  I do it, it'd be great for 3-6 weeks then slowly it would get harder again.  Replaced the hub over the winter and after the initial set up all I've had to do is the final chain adjustment once.

I noticed some very light grooves on the hub studs.  I'll get a slip of sandpaper and see if I can lightly polish / smooth them out prior to reassembly.

[Ohio HD]

I pulled the clutch stack apart today.  It was very productive because it helped me definitively discover that I have a dry clutch hub shell setup (with an aftermarket releasing disc and five stud clutch hub).

I found a light film of oil on most of the clutch plates.  I have them clutch sitting in a bath of white gas for a few hours.  Later tonight I'm going to pull them out and recondition per the recommendations from Harley:

I'm happy, because it gives me a starting point with regards to the correct procedure to use for properly setting up / adjusting the clutch now that I know that I'm supposed to use the "dry clutch" procedures in the factory service manual.

But we all knew that already, ehh?   

[96flhpi]

For some reason they do not!! Just one of those things I found to work. Frank

I'll have to give that a try next time my hub wears

[Burnout]

Start with loosening the clutch CABLE adjuster,'til your clutch LEVER is "sloppy-loose"

Then loosen lock-nut on CLUTCH adjuster..turn the screw in 'til it seats..turn it back-out about 1/2 turn..and,hold it RIGHT-THERE while you retighten the lock nut

Then go back to your clutch CABLE adjuster..turn it out (expanding) 'til you have only about 1/8 to 1/4 inch of LEVER free-play...tighten that lock nut..and you're done.

This clutch adjustment procedure is not correct for a 4 speed and you may damage the throwout bearing and push rod by using it with a lever release type, instead of a ball ramp type (5 speed) that it is correct for.

[david lee]

ive always found getting neutral at standstill impossible even with a whole new clutch installed by a hd mech.he said thats how shovels are. slightly moving and it clicks in easy

[fbn ent]

Mine is almost always easy in or out of neutral....

[Ohio HD]

Use one of these to retain and set and end play for the clutch basket.

You'll wonder whose bike your on.....

Not even a gear clash going into first from neutral. Leave the plastic clutch retainers, they're crap.

https://bit.ly/2MfeIT1

[Burnout]

I've always used the plastic retainers and they seem to work well. I have to spot face one of the snap ring holes so I can get 3 snap rings on them though

How does that one work, cant figure it out looking at the parts. Must be extra parts there that are shims?

[Ohio HD]

18-1112 V-twin

[2017FLHTK]

While I have the primary cover off, I figured it'd be a good time to check / verify the alignment on my primary chain.  The "Sprocket Alignment Dry Clutch Procedures" are listed as follows:

1) See Figure 6-3.  Reinstall the clutch hub and take measurement "A" from the chain cover surface to the alternator rotor surface.
2) Take measure "B" from the chain cover surface to the clutch disc friction surface.
3) Subtract "B" measurement from "A" measurement to determine which space listed in dimension "C" to use.


Figure A is easy enough: the distance from the front edge of the rotor to the inner primary gasket surface.  I'm pretty confused where I'm supposed to take measurement B though.  What is the "clutch disc friction surface" that the service manual references?  The inside of the clutch hub?  Some other location?


With all that said, the primary chain alignment actually looks pretty good (the teeth on the sprocket coming off the crankshaft and the teeth on the sprocket connecting the clutch / transmission are centered in the middle of the gap in the chains).  However, I can't wrap my head around what the instructions in the service manual are telling me to check.  Am I missing something simple here?

[Ohio HD]

Remove these and all will be clear.


You cannot see attachments on this board.

[fbn ent]

Pull the compensating sprocket and primary chain/clutch hub. Measure (B) to the friction disc on the clutch hub and (A) to the rotor.

[JW113]

Which is not to hard to do IF you have the sockets and a lock bar. If not, just push the chain back (toward the inner primary wall) as far as it will go, then measure from the inner primary flange surface to a chain link close to the engine sprocket, and as close as you can to the clutch sprocket. The main point is that you want to see that that chain is running parallel to the inner primary flange surface.

I've also had no issues with the plastic clutch retainer. Clutch works perfectly, no drag, no creep, neutral is a piece of cake rolling or not. If I happen to get into the clutch again, may consider that J&P retainer just to check it out.

Also gave this a passing thought.

https://www.jpcycles.com/product/630-407/sifton-diaphragm-clutch-conversion-kit


-JW

[72fl]

You sure that is what you did on a cow pie Shovel? Never ever heard of that.

Isn't the Clutch the same ? Or am I mistaken ?

[fbn ent]

From Burnout (above)...

"This clutch adjustment procedure is not correct for a 4 speed and you may damage the throwout bearing and push rod by using it with a lever release type, instead of a ball ramp type (5 speed) that it is correct for."

[Burnout]

18-1112 V-twin

I dont understand this step, it seems contradictory?

9. If retainer is to be installed in a KARATA belt drive, DO NOT use steel plate before installing clutch plates. DO use steel plate when installing on
conventional chain drive or Harley belt drive. (Super Max. Primo. or Phase 3) before installing clutch plates.

A stock clutch does not use a steel first against the basket? Is it needed to space out the first friction from the tamer?

[Ohio HD]

18-1112 V-twin

I dont understand this step, it seems contradictory?

9. If retainer is to be installed in a KARATA belt drive, DO NOT use steel plate before installing clutch plates. DO use steel plate when installing on
conventional chain drive or Harley belt drive. (Super Max. Primo. or Phase 3) before installing clutch plates.

A stock clutch does not use a steel first against the basket? Is it needed to space out the first friction from the tamer?

Yes, the clutch fiber needs to be spaced away from the center section of the tamer.

[Burnout]

Yes, the clutch fiber needs to be spaced away from the center section of the tamer.

Their picture does not show that.   

[david lee]

18-1112 V-twin

I dont understand this step, it seems contradictory?

9. If retainer is to be installed in a KARATA belt drive, DO NOT use steel plate before installing clutch plates. DO use steel plate when installing on
conventional chain drive or Harley belt drive. (Super Max. Primo. or Phase 3) before installing clutch plates.

A stock clutch does not use a steel first against the basket? Is it needed to space out the first friction from the tamer?

Yes, the clutch fiber needs to be spaced away from the center section of the tamer.

its been yrs since i converted mine to ince and half belt primary with the 52 roller bearing hub and am pretty sure it came with what is called a black plastic retainer held on with 3 clips.what does it do and if a fibre clutch plate is the first installed what is the last to be installed  metal or fibre.thanks

[Burnout]

The plastic retainer is thinner and will not hit the first friction.

The Tamer is a different setup, much more positive, and it's thickness requires spacing the first friction out to clear it.

[billbuilds]

     Once you get the spring/collar distance set at the initial 5/8" your next step should be to get your 13/16" for your cllutch lever to starter distance. Loosen the clutch cable and the lock nut on the clutch pushrod adjusting screw. Now pull on the clutch lever as the cable would while you simultaneously screw the adjuster screw in or out as needed to get the corrrect distance. Some would say to back off the adjuster screw a half turn or so from here but I don't see the logic. Your next step should be to set yur freeplay at the lever and this is where you're going to loose that half turn anyhow. The freeplay at the handlebar is critical; too tight and your wafter-type throwout bearing gets chewed up.   

[david lee]

The plastic retainer is thinner and will not hit the first friction.

The Tamer is a different setup, much more positive, and it's thickness requires spacing the first friction out to clear it.

thanks but what does it actually do

[friday]

If youre not taking the drive out , just measure the chain like has been mentioned by JW said

[crock]

The plastic retainer is thinner and will not hit the first friction.

The Tamer is a different setup, much more positive, and it's thickness requires spacing the first friction out to clear it.

thanks but what does it actually do

The outer clutch shell is free to float around. By keeping it in place to the back the disks are allowed to separate a little more cleanly

[david lee]

The plastic retainer is thinner and will not hit the first friction.

The Tamer is a different setup, much more positive, and it's thickness requires spacing the first friction out to clear it.

thanks but what does it actually do

The outer clutch shell is free to float around. By keeping it in place to the back the disks are allowed to separate a little more cleanly

got it.what i will say is as i run a belt with a vented derby cover when you operate the clutch you can hear the plates rattle which tells me the clutch is working. correct ? thanks