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EVO base gaskets...Is it OK to only replace the gasket?

Started by SixShooter14, October 14, 2019, 09:42:15 PM

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SixShooter14

So I have a moderately slow leak from the rear base gasket.

I'm planning on tearing the top off this winter and replacing. Is it OK to just swap out the gasket? Or do I need to have the surfaces 'trued'?



PS. I saw that James Gaskets has a 'Top End Gasket Set'....Is that all I'd need to pull the top end off to replace the base gaskets and reassemble?

Thanks
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

92flhtcu

That would be the budget way to do it, however those base gaskets may be stuck to the jugs pretty darn good. I've always had a machine shop true them when I'm that far into it
Need a bigger garage

rigidthumper

I'd use this instead of HD's horrible paper ones.
I'd also use a mandrel & lathe to true/clean the gasket surfaces.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

SixShooter14

Thanks guys, that's pretty much what I was thinking.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

thumper 823

It all can become a slippery slope and I fell off the edge years ago.
Axtell sells Nodular Iron cylinders and they are so solid they just dont move. (like AL ones will)
The beauty of them is they do not need a gasket at all.
A slight bead of yamma bond or the like and they will not ever leak.
Every Hp you find will cost some money and the devil is in the details.
The nodular cylinders can be shimmed for deck ht and you can use shims instead of standard gaskets.
I needed 0.006 and Cometic will make you anything you want to get your squish band where it should be.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

SixShooter14

October 15, 2019, 07:51:18 AM #5 Last Edit: October 15, 2019, 08:00:18 AM by SixShooter14
Quote from: thumper 823 on October 15, 2019, 07:31:21 AM
It all can become a slippery slope and I fell off the edge years ago.
Axtell sells Nodular Iron cylinders and they are so solid they just dont move. (like AL ones will)
The beauty of them is they do not need a gasket at all.
A slight bead of yamma bond or the like and they will not ever leak.
Every Hp you find will cost some money and the devil is in the details.
The nodular cylinders can be shimmed for deck ht and you can use shims instead of standard gaskets.
I needed 0.006 and Cometic will make you anything you want to get your squish band where it should be.
Haha. Thanks, but I'm not looking for more HP  :embarrassed: just hoping to eliminate a leak (and prevent a future one)

Edit: Dammit, now you've got me looking at head porters and cylinder/piston upgrades  :banghead:
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

TexNorth

I do have a question about the practice of truing up the base of the cylinder.   In all seriousness, I know that cylinders should be bored and even honed (if using a rigid type hone) while having torque plates to make certain they are true when under compression (thereby simulating the conditions in the bike).   If you machine the base, would it not change that?


rigidthumper

Truing (and gasket residue removal) is typically before the cylinder goes into the torque plate.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

thumper 823

Quote from: rigidthumper on October 15, 2019, 08:47:08 AM
Truing (and gasket residue removal) is typically before the cylinder goes into the torque plate.

Not sure I understand your Q.- 
Truing the cylinders is one procedure and decking the base area where the cyl sits by whatever means you choose will not affect the bore in the cylinder.

The EVO has two problems going and that is the area around the stud will start to get proud, plus the cylinder being AL will shuffle.
The are numerous ways to take care of the pulled area around the stud.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Pete_Vit

Hey Six when mine started when I was due for a top end freshen up so I did it all, about 109,000, I'm not sure the miles on your new ride but I think you can get away with just getting a new base gasket, my jugs and base were fine,  I've been told the HD gaskets were suspect and prone to failure, I used the James Gasket set myself, I'm sure others have thier favorites, so far 10,000 miles on the freshen-up no leaks 
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

SixShooter14

Quote from: Pete_Vit on October 15, 2019, 11:28:54 AM
Hey Six when mine started when I was due for a top end freshen up so I did it all, about 109,000, I'm not sure the miles on your new ride but I think you can get away with just getting a new base gasket, my jugs and base were fine,  I've been told the HD gaskets were suspect and prone to failure, I used the James Gasket set myself, I'm sure others have thier favorites, so far 10,000 miles on the freshen-up no leaks
Thanks, Pete. As with any used rig that's 20+yrs old, I don't know much history. But it has about 53k miles. It already had the rather common base leak which doesn't leak much volume, but it's enough to make a mess on the bike and the concrete. So I figure, now that I have a garage, I might as well fix it this winter. Probably not until after Christmas when the weather really starts to get cold and wet. Hopefully I have a jack or lift by then.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

Pete_Vit

Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 15, 2019, 11:54:55 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on October 15, 2019, 11:28:54 AM
Hey Six when mine started when I was due for a top end freshen up so I did it all, about 109,000, I'm not sure the miles on your new ride but I think you can get away with just getting a new base gasket, my jugs and base were fine,  I've been told the HD gaskets were suspect and prone to failure, I used the James Gasket set myself, I'm sure others have thier favorites, so far 10,000 miles on the freshen-up no leaks
Thanks, Pete. As with any used rig that's 20+yrs old, I don't know much history. But it has about 53k miles. It already had the rather common base leak which doesn't leak much volume, but it's enough to make a mess on the bike and the concrete. So I figure, now that I have a garage, I might as well fix it this winter. Probably not until after Christmas when the weather really starts to get cold and wet. Hopefully I have a jack or lift by then.
:up: - got me one of those plans too with the wife's Sporty, you've got plenty of friends here to help you out if you need...well he$$ you know that !  :up:
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

SixShooter14

Quote from: Pete_Vit on October 15, 2019, 12:37:48 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 15, 2019, 11:54:55 AM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on October 15, 2019, 11:28:54 AM
Hey Six when mine started when I was due for a top end freshen up so I did it all, about 109,000, I'm not sure the miles on your new ride but I think you can get away with just getting a new base gasket, my jugs and base were fine,  I've been told the HD gaskets were suspect and prone to failure, I used the James Gasket set myself, I'm sure others have thier favorites, so far 10,000 miles on the freshen-up no leaks
Thanks, Pete. As with any used rig that's 20+yrs old, I don't know much history. But it has about 53k miles. It already had the rather common base leak which doesn't leak much volume, but it's enough to make a mess on the bike and the concrete. So I figure, now that I have a garage, I might as well fix it this winter. Probably not until after Christmas when the weather really starts to get cold and wet. Hopefully I have a jack or lift by then.
:up: - got me one of those plans too with the wife's Sporty, you've got plenty of friends here to help you out if you need...well he$$ you know that !  :up:
haha, yup
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

Burnout

Quote from: TexNorth on October 15, 2019, 08:43:45 AM
I do have a question about the practice of truing up the base of the cylinder.   In all seriousness, I know that cylinders should be bored and even honed (if using a rigid type hone) while having torque plates to make certain they are true when under compression (thereby simulating the conditions in the bike).   If you machine the base, would it not change that?

Ring seal at the bottom of the cylinder is not as critical as at the top.
There is very little pressure at the bottom compared to the top.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

david lee

how come evos had a problem with the crankcase studs and shovels didnt

Burnout

They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

thumper 823

Not only size but a shovel is just holding the cylinders on as they use head bolts.
They do not go all the way dwn into the case.
So the Evo is subject to a lot more stress in the stud area.

From the engineering point of view, studs are always better, but HD forgot to beef up the cylinder landing.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

twincamzz

When I installed base gaskets I also used a set of these "pigtails" in the cylinder oil return passage.
not all who wander are lost...

thumper 823

In reality, the studs should be replaced anyway as they have stretched and do not apply a clamping force, just a static hold.
If you do not understand,- picture the studs (or any fastener) as a rubber stud or bolt. When torqed to spec they are working.
If torqed to actual "yield" or just old they do not have any elasticity and become a static force.
This allows the head and cylinders to do the shuffle.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Pete_Vit

Quote from: thumper 823 on October 16, 2019, 03:50:18 AM
In reality, the studs should be replaced anyway as they have stretched and do not apply a clamping force, just a static hold.
If you do not understand,- picture the studs (or any fastener) as a rubber stud or bolt. When torqed to spec they are working.
If torqed to actual "yield" or just old they do not have any elasticity and become a static force.
This allows the head and cylinders to do the shuffle.
:agree: and I did replace mine, but I've been flamed by so many for doing such, once I pulled one head bolt out and found the stud came with it, I figured it was apart, do it now just for the piece of mind, I may not have needed to but it's my ride  :wink:
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

SixShooter14

Quote from: thumper 823 on October 16, 2019, 03:50:18 AM
In reality, the studs should be replaced anyway as they have stretched and do not apply a clamping force, just a static hold.
If you do not understand,- picture the studs (or any fastener) as a rubber stud or bolt. When torqed to spec they are working.
If torqed to actual "yield" or just old they do not have any elasticity and become a static force.
This allows the head and cylinders to do the shuffle.
Same goes for any critical fastener. Once tightened down, they really should not be reused as the threads have already yielded.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

Tollbooth

 Six. I'll be the bad guy and say it.
As you said, it's a small leak. Oil is cheap, let it go till something else goes wrong that requires a tear down. jmho.


SixShooter14

Quote from: Tollbooth on October 16, 2019, 07:49:49 AM
Six. I'll be the bad guy and say it.
As you said, it's a small leak. Oil is cheap, let it go till something else goes wrong that requires a tear down. jmho.
well, that's what I've been doing since December. I changed the fluids in May and have put on about 3k miles and it's down maybe a half quart...But I don't like parking over a piece of cardboard to catch the drips. It's just an annoyance.

It's definitely not a priority. But something I'd like to take care when the weather turns wet and cold in January. So I figured buy the top end gasket set and do it whenever I get bored this winter. I'd also like to get into the cam chest some time and see if the cam or bearing have been changed. I have no history with this bike, so I don't mind doing some exploration.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

SixShooter14

'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

Ohio HD

Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 16, 2019, 08:03:20 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on October 16, 2019, 07:56:35 AM
While you're in there..........                :pop:


https://www.sscycle.com/products/complete-96-inch-big-bore/stroker-hot-set-up-kit-with-cylinder-heads-for-1993-99-big-twins-wrinkle-black-finish/
haha...I'm in Memphis, the winters aren't that bad.

That's like three weeks downtime with shipping the cases to someone for machining. Piece 'o' cake!  We'll help.....     :smiled:


Chameleon90

Then there is this product which claims to fix the issue of leaking base gaskets forever.  Found this after putting James metal base gaskets in mine.

  the Oil FIX
Jeff
Cheesehead

SixShooter14

Quote from: Chameleon90 on October 16, 2019, 08:38:04 AM
Then there is this product which claims to fix the issue of leaking base gaskets forever.  Found this after putting James metal base gaskets in mine.

  the Oil FIX

yeah, I've seen those but never tried it. A good warm up procedure has always worked for me.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

SixShooter14

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 16, 2019, 08:11:26 AM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 16, 2019, 08:03:20 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on October 16, 2019, 07:56:35 AM
While you're in there..........                :pop:


https://www.sscycle.com/products/complete-96-inch-big-bore/stroker-hot-set-up-kit-with-cylinder-heads-for-1993-99-big-twins-wrinkle-black-finish/
haha...I'm in Memphis, the winters aren't that bad.

That's like three weeks downtime with shipping the cases to someone for machining. Piece 'o' cake!  We'll help.....     :smiled:
nah, I'm not that ambitious......yet

Right now I'm thinking new gaskets from the base up, new studs, and maybe adjustable pushrods (assuming it has OEMs now :idunno: )

Future:
head porting and new cam (assuming it has OEM cam :idunno: )

I'm not looking for tons of power (famous last words  :doh: ) just a strong, reliable, non-leaking engine.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

thumper 823

Most head porting is BS AFAIC
I did my own as I have on all my stuff for years ..but everyone has said brand X will make such a HUGE difference.
I bought into it.

Barf

So far it has been a boatload of BS.
No difference!
If you look at a 911 head and improve on the intake port just a little  (copy)  install the larger valves, unshroud them.
Put the seating area  WAY to the top and narrow.
A good mid-range cam (and springs)
10. something to one  Cr
Viola
You will be at 100hp
Most people that want to keep secrets can't afford to let loose as they don't know much.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

SixShooter14

Quote from: thumper 823 on October 16, 2019, 09:16:19 AM
Most head porting is BS AFAIC
I did my own as I have on all my stuff for years ..but everyone has said brand X will make such a HUGE difference.
I bought into it.

Barf

So far it has been a boatload of BS.
No difference!
If you look at a 911 head and improve on the intake port just a little  (copy)  install the larger valves, unshroud them.
Put the seating area  WAY to the top and narrow.
A good mid-range cam (and springs)
10. something to one  Cr
Viola
You will be at 100hp
Most people that want to keep secrets can't afford to let loose as they don't know much.
by 'porting' I really mean cleaning and slicking up, to help the flow and valves. Maybe even add new lifters to try to reduce some noise, though it's not that bad.

Edit: But I also have no idea what kind of shape the inside of this engine is in. Could be nice and clean or caked up and nasty
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

thumper 823

The heart of the engine is the cam.
Don't go crazy, 580, to 530  lift or close, .
I  am a fan Of Dave Mackie but looking at the specs I think the better street cams are all about the same.
Of course a new inner bearing.
You will want new lifters for insurance and the high spring pressure.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

SixShooter14

Quote from: thumper 823 on October 16, 2019, 09:35:35 AM
The heart of the engine is the cam.
Don't go crazy, 580, to 530  lift or close, .
I  am a fan Of Dave Mackie but looking at the specs I think the better street cams are all about the same.
Of course a new inner bearing.
You will want new lifters for insurance and the high spring pressure.
Yeah, that's the biggest question right now. I have no idea what cam is in it. Or the carb jetting for that matter.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

thumper 823

If you have an aftermarket cam you are already running past all stock evos
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

SixShooter14

Quote from: thumper 823 on October 16, 2019, 09:48:44 AM
If you have an aftermarket cam you are already running past all stock evos
I feel I already know this answer...But I'll ask anyway... Is there anyway to ID a cam without pulling it out? Or at least determine if it's stock HD or aftermarket?
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

thumper 823

It should be stamped right on the end sticking out the timing cover.
You will have to remove whatever you have in there for ignition....
which brings you back to the slippery slope you need better than stock  D.TT
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Ohio HD

Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 16, 2019, 09:52:37 AM
Quote from: thumper 823 on October 16, 2019, 09:48:44 AM
If you have an aftermarket cam you are already running past all stock evos
I feel I already know this answer...But I'll ask anyway... Is there anyway to ID a cam without pulling it out? Or at least determine if it's stock HD or aftermarket?

Degree wheel is about it.

I mean you really don't know if it has stock anything, pistons milled heads, etc.

SixShooter14

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 16, 2019, 10:45:34 AM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 16, 2019, 09:52:37 AM
Quote from: thumper 823 on October 16, 2019, 09:48:44 AM
If you have an aftermarket cam you are already running past all stock evos
I feel I already know this answer...But I'll ask anyway... Is there anyway to ID a cam without pulling it out? Or at least determine if it's stock HD or aftermarket?

Degree wheel is about it.

I mean you really don't know if it has stock anything, pistons milled heads, etc.
pretty much. I'm trying to find the least invasive way to determine what the inside looks like. But being that it is currently leaking, I don't mind opening the top end to fix that.


I should be able to just pull the pushrod tubes and at least see if they're adjustable.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

thumper 823

I forgot if you have virgin  heads you need 0.050 to about 0.075  scraped off your heads
along with the cam and the rest of the goodies.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

hbkeith

October 17, 2019, 12:52:43 AM #40 Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 01:01:10 AM by hbkeith
youre there so ... may as well do it now , on my 97 RK I let Larry port my heads ( bigger valves etc) and mill off 50 ,adjustable pushrods , new lifters, EV27 cam ,stock pistons with new rings,  stock (rejetted) CV carb, stock ignition , used Propipe(you already have better exhaust) ,didn't do new studs and no problems in 50000 miles since work done. the bike was night and day difference in power . NO BS ,you will be happy.    but if you are not gona mill your Heads I would not change the Pushrods , Why ?

Hillside Motorcycle

Machine the un-machined cylinder base.
Cures the leaks.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

Pete_Vit

Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on October 17, 2019, 04:04:46 AM
Machine the un-machined cylinder base.
Cures the leaks.
while its apart, I agree, get the base and cyls checked, I was told mine were OK, since it was apart and I was seeping from the base gasket I didn't want to chance it.
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

SixShooter14

Quote from: hbkeith on October 17, 2019, 12:52:43 AM
youre there so ... may as well do it now , on my 97 RK I let Larry port my heads ( bigger valves etc) and mill off 50 ,adjustable pushrods , new lifters, EV27 cam ,stock pistons with new rings,  stock (rejetted) CV carb, stock ignition , used Propipe(you already have better exhaust) ,didn't do new studs and no problems in 50000 miles since work done. the bike was night and day difference in power . NO BS ,you will be happy.    but if you are not gona mill your Heads I would not change the Pushrods , Why ?
Thanks, that's pretty much my current plan.

Assuming my current cam is stock, I was planning to go with an EV27 or 23 later down the road. But the pushrods could be done at that time and the cost put into head/cyl. machining, which really should be done to compliment the cam change. I'm trying hard to keep this project limited to the top-end for both timing and budgetary reasons.

But there's also nothing saying I can't put it off a few more months and let the budget grow. That's kinda why I'm planning it out so early. The wrenches won't turn until after New Years anyway, so waiting until Mar. or Apr. wouldn't hurt.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

thumper 823

If you are not doing the work your self you better get the heads in early as you wont get them back very soon if you are last in line.
As I said the larger and unshrouded valves is 99% of the port work.
Most anyone can do it.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Pete_Vit

Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 17, 2019, 06:21:35 AM
Quote from: hbkeith on October 17, 2019, 12:52:43 AM
youre there so ... may as well do it now , on my 97 RK I let Larry port my heads ( bigger valves etc) and mill off 50 ,adjustable pushrods , new lifters, EV27 cam ,stock pistons with new rings,  stock (rejetted) CV carb, stock ignition , used Propipe(you already have better exhaust) ,didn't do new studs and no problems in 50000 miles since work done. the bike was night and day difference in power . NO BS ,you will be happy.    but if you are not gona mill your Heads I would not change the Pushrods , Why ?
Thanks, that's pretty much my current plan.

Assuming my current cam is stock, I was planning to go with an EV27 or 23 later down the road. But the pushrods could be done at that time and the cost put into head/cyl. machining, which really should be done to compliment the cam change. I'm trying hard to keep this project limited to the top-end for both timing and budgetary reasons.

But there's also nothing saying I can't put it off a few more months and let the budget grow. That's kinda why I'm planning it out so early. The wrenches won't turn until after New Years anyway, so waiting until Mar. or Apr. wouldn't hurt.
EV 27 is what I went with, mild but better than stock, and a nice bolt on  :up:
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

rigidthumper

As long as we're spending your money :), EV23 @ 9.5:1 CR is a good overall cam for a RK- outworks the EV27 below 5K
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

SixShooter14

Quote from: rigidthumper on October 17, 2019, 08:09:49 AM
As long as we're spending your money :), EV23 @ 9.5:1 CR is a good overall cam for a RK- outworks the EV27 below 5K
thanks a lot  :kick:.

I've been flip-flopping between the EV23 and 27 for months. :idunno:  :argue:
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

Pete_Vit

Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 17, 2019, 08:32:18 AM
Quote from: rigidthumper on October 17, 2019, 08:09:49 AM
As long as we're spending your money :), EV23 @ 9.5:1 CR is a good overall cam for a RK- outworks the EV27 below 5K
thanks a lot  :kick:.

I've been flip-flopping between the EV23 and 27 for months. :idunno:  :argue:
true but I believe :nix: the EV23 requires some...modifications ? not a bolt on, that may be ok, I just chose not to
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

rigidthumper

Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

SixShooter14

but then again, if I shave the heads a bit, the 27 or a w6 would get it there...  :missed: :baby: :pop: :horse:
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

Pete_Vit

93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

Ohio HD

Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 17, 2019, 09:08:24 AM
but then again, if I shave the heads a bit, the 27 or a w6 would get it there...  :missed: :baby: :pop: :horse:

EV59, stand on the compression, have the heads flowed by Larry....      :chop:    :chop:    :chop:    :chop:

thumper 823

I will have to say, if you have your heads off why go a bolt-in cam?
This makes no sense at all as you are doing a valve job anyway and it takes very little time to cut the guides dwn.
you want to go bigger on the valves, new guides and new springs, new cam.
( the time it takes to face valves is better spent on new, as they live in genuine hell.)
The money is almost the same .
The only thing extra you spent money on was the labor for the top cut.

Cut them for 600 lift, you will always have options later and install a decent Torq cam now.

It is a slippery slope and i think  I landed at the bottom.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

SixShooter14

Quote from: thumper 823 on October 17, 2019, 12:07:36 PM
I will have to say, if you have your heads off why go a bolt-in cam?
This makes no sense at all as you are doing a valve job anyway and it takes very little time to cut the guides dwn.
you want to go bigger on the valves, new guides and new springs, new cam.
( the time it takes to face valves is better spent on new, as they live in genuine hell.)
The money is almost the same .
The only thing extra you spent money on was the labor for the top cut.

Cut them for 600 lift, you will always have options later and install a decent Torq cam now.

It is a slippery slope and i think  I landed at the bottom.
so, what you're saying is "don't half-ass it"??  :up: :doh:



Thanks for the advice guys. I don't really need more power, but I wouldn't complain about it. The main thing I'm wanting is a good, clean, and reliable engine. So I don't want to go too far with upgrades that I don't really need. That's why I'm focusing on the top-end stuff that I'm already pulling off to fix the leak.

That said, I will definitely be pulling off the timing cover and pushrod tubes just to see what we see. And once done I'll be tuning or having someone tune the carb. I'm only getting around 32mpg for typical 55-65mph highway driving. That seems a bit low to me.  :nix:
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

Pete_Vit

Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 17, 2019, 12:21:44 PM
Quote from: thumper 823 on October 17, 2019, 12:07:36 PM
I will have to say, if you have your heads off why go a bolt-in cam?
This makes no sense at all as you are doing a valve job anyway and it takes very little time to cut the guides dwn.
you want to go bigger on the valves, new guides and new springs, new cam.
( the time it takes to face valves is better spent on new, as they live in genuine hell.)
The money is almost the same .
The only thing extra you spent money on was the labor for the top cut.

Cut them for 600 lift, you will always have options later and install a decent Torq cam now.

It is a slippery slope and i think  I landed at the bottom.
so, what you're saying is "don't half-ass it"??  :up: :doh:



Thanks for the advice guys. I don't really need more power, but I wouldn't complain about it. The main thing I'm wanting is a good, clean, and reliable engine. So I don't want to go too far with upgrades that I don't really need. That's why I'm focusing on the top-end stuff that I'm already pulling off to fix the leak.

That said, I will definitely be pulling off the timing cover and pushrod tubes just to see what we see. And once done I'll be tuning or having someone tune the carb. I'm only getting around 32mpg for typical 55-65mph highway driving. That seems a bit low to me. :nix:
:agree: first thing my machine shop asked is what type of riding am I doing/planning, and suggested I only freshen up the jugs, he found the valves, guides and seats were worn in the heads, so .005 over (cleaned up), new pistons, rings, values, springs...& hardware. my cam was done prior, so the only other suggestion I'd have is cam bearings inner outer, timken was my fist choice  :up:
I'm happy with how it performs. you've seen they dyno sheet before the rebuild, I think for a pretty much stock 80" evo it does ok.
 
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch

SixShooter14

Quote from: Pete_Vit on October 17, 2019, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 17, 2019, 12:21:44 PM
Quote from: thumper 823 on October 17, 2019, 12:07:36 PM
I will have to say, if you have your heads off why go a bolt-in cam?
This makes no sense at all as you are doing a valve job anyway and it takes very little time to cut the guides dwn.
you want to go bigger on the valves, new guides and new springs, new cam.
( the time it takes to face valves is better spent on new, as they live in genuine hell.)
The money is almost the same .
The only thing extra you spent money on was the labor for the top cut.

Cut them for 600 lift, you will always have options later and install a decent Torq cam now.

It is a slippery slope and i think  I landed at the bottom.
so, what you're saying is "don't half-ass it"??  :up: :doh:



Thanks for the advice guys. I don't really need more power, but I wouldn't complain about it. The main thing I'm wanting is a good, clean, and reliable engine. So I don't want to go too far with upgrades that I don't really need. That's why I'm focusing on the top-end stuff that I'm already pulling off to fix the leak.

That said, I will definitely be pulling off the timing cover and pushrod tubes just to see what we see. And once done I'll be tuning or having someone tune the carb. I'm only getting around 32mpg for typical 55-65mph highway driving. That seems a bit low to me. :nix:
:agree: first thing my machine shop asked is what type of riding am I doing/planning, and suggested I only freshen up the jugs, he found the valves, guides and seats were worn in the heads, so .005 over (cleaned up), new pistons, rings, values, springs...& hardware. my cam was done prior, so the only other suggestion I'd have is cam bearings inner outer, timken was my fist choice  :up:
I'm happy with how it performs. you've seen they dyno sheet before the rebuild, I think for a pretty much stock 80" evo it does ok.

yup, I'm going for healthy. Anything more is bonus.


Did you use Rodney's for machining? I was thinking about wfoLarry, but Rodney's is much closer and they can tune the carb afterwards too.
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

thumper 823

Everyone should do their own valve work..
No one will do it with the care you do, like kissing you SO.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

thumper 823

I think in all this I ( we ) have lost track where the OP is trying to get to.
There has been talk of pushrods that will do nothing.
Heads off for mild porting but no real cam which is a huge waste of money.

I am not being cruel here but my advice is-  the Op needs to sit dwn and write down the goal at the bottom of the page.
Then fill in the blanks above.
That is always what I tell everyone, leave the eclectic for art lovers.
Or it becomes unorganized parts throwing contest, and a huge waste of money.
If the OP wants power like a 100 hp you are going to flip out at least 2K.( prolly a lot  more)
If he wants a refresh well thats a lot less, and Aunt Tillie's valve job will do.

If you want FAST and don't do your own head work then choose a shop with pictures of winners on the wall.
That is your reference and resume to you..
Pictures of their own race bikes.
T&O used to be grate. But they sank into oblivion.
Lake Shore again.......sigh
Then there are a bunch of others with all sorts of hype and fantastic claims with no real proof except paper and flow bench results which in truth means absolutely nothing to most people.
100 Hp @ 6000 RPM sounds great, but in reality, would suck if there ws no Torq say from 2K on for a street engine.
Your builder should be able to show you repeatable dyno results from different engines for your application.
If they lack a dyno room, then they have a fully outfitted BS room to sell you a bunch of anything.
So choose carefully from the generic NAPA 45 deg valve job  on the seats (Aunt tilly) to the extravagant 50 deg valve job with all sorts of tricks.
Hillside Harley has a pretty good resume hanging on the wall too and should be mentioned here.
  Brutal Honesty on the owners part  of the Harley along with the same from the machinest  / builder is paramount.
Hope all this helps.
Carry on.
 
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Hossamania

Quote from: thumper 823 on October 17, 2019, 12:47:13 PM
Everyone should do their own valve work..
No one will do it with the care you do, like kissing you SO.

You're right, no one would do it with the care I do. Nor would they butcher it up like I would. I have no problem paying a reputable shop to do my valve work. Already did once, it has lasted 90,000 miles of high rpm abuse so far.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

thumper 823

I like challenges-
I remember my very first valve job, sort of.
Some old v8 , a very early 1960s something or other. This was about 1974
  My mentor who did valves and seats as a side job was going to give me a deal if I stand there and help/watch.
He decided that i should just do it!
He started to just walk away!
I said wait wait wait!!
"I have only seen you do a one valve "
His answer "just do it and it will be better then what I had started with!"  LOL
I guess he was right..It has been many years of research and study from Smoky Yunick to Joe Mondello, Porsche and more.
The point there is no greater satisfaction of doing your own stuff.
I highly recommend everyone do their own work where possible.
Now I am doing things that are unheard of. ( in a normal shop)
If you do your own stuff you can place the seating area and width where and how you want it, which is a big deal in a performance engine.
Your normal sans valve fixer would have no clue  .
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

hbkeith

I don't understand why adjustable pushrods if not milling ? something that has fail potential for no reason

thumper 823

Pushrods are as smart as their owners-The old Iron heads Sporties came stock standard with them!
If you were to take a survey of people that have had PR problems it would be pretty slim.
Remember some people can't change a tire! Much less be in charge of proper valve adjustment and a locknut.
In 50 years I have not ever had one come loose.
  Also, I have heard there is inferior aftermarket crap for sale ...choose wisely.  Esp if going aftermarket cam and Springs.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Hillside Motorcycle

Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 17, 2019, 09:08:24 AM
but then again, if I shave the heads a bit, the 27 or a w6 would get it there...  :missed: :baby: :pop: :horse:

A Wood 6 at 10.0 cr is a combination that we have built, without any jest, at LEAST 100 plus times.
Never a disappointment.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

Pete_Vit

Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 17, 2019, 12:44:08 PM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on October 17, 2019, 12:32:05 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on October 17, 2019, 12:21:44 PM
Quote from: thumper 823 on October 17, 2019, 12:07:36 PM
I will have to say, if you have your heads off why go a bolt-in cam?
This makes no sense at all as you are doing a valve job anyway and it takes very little time to cut the guides dwn.
you want to go bigger on the valves, new guides and new springs, new cam.
( the time it takes to face valves is better spent on new, as they live in genuine hell.)
The money is almost the same .
The only thing extra you spent money on was the labor for the top cut.

Cut them for 600 lift, you will always have options later and install a decent Torq cam now.

It is a slippery slope and i think  I landed at the bottom.
so, what you're saying is "don't half-ass it"??  :up: :doh:



Thanks for the advice guys. I don't really need more power, but I wouldn't complain about it. The main thing I'm wanting is a good, clean, and reliable engine. So I don't want to go too far with upgrades that I don't really need. That's why I'm focusing on the top-end stuff that I'm already pulling off to fix the leak.

That said, I will definitely be pulling off the timing cover and pushrod tubes just to see what we see. And once done I'll be tuning or having someone tune the carb. I'm only getting around 32mpg for typical 55-65mph highway driving. That seems a bit low to me. :nix:
:agree: first thing my machine shop asked is what type of riding am I doing/planning, and suggested I only freshen up the jugs, he found the valves, guides and seats were worn in the heads, so .005 over (cleaned up), new pistons, rings, values, springs...& hardware. my cam was done prior, so the only other suggestion I'd have is cam bearings inner outer, timken was my fist choice  :up:
I'm happy with how it performs. you've seen they dyno sheet before the rebuild, I think for a pretty much stock 80" evo it does ok.

yup, I'm going for healthy. Anything more is bonus.


Did you use Rodney's for machining? I was thinking about wfoLarry, but Rodney's is much closer and they can tune the carb afterwards too.
I did use Rodney's, Eddie did all the machine work, he's pretty much part time now. He did all my machine work in the Sporty and the Springer  :up:
93 XLH1200 - 96 FXSTS - 2010 Ultra Glide Classic
www.facebook.com/harleypartsch