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Self Tuners

Started by hollywood63, October 31, 2019, 04:24:42 PM

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hollywood63

So I've been out of the loop for awhile and was at the local dealer and they pulled their dyno and sold it. So I asked why and they where telling me because of the self tuners that are out they didn't feel the need for a dyno anymore.  So what seems the best tuner as far easy of use and accuracy.  I'm sure both those points can't be used in the same sentence.

Thanks

rigidthumper

Self tuner is kind of a misnomer- there are "auto adjusting" units on the market that use the feedback from supplied O2 sensors, that are RPM & Throttle position dependent, (T-Max) and there are units that can record the factory 02 data, and via your input & software use that data to adjust the closed loop sections of the VE tables, and remove timing from 'pinging/about to ping' areas of the base map (TTS Mastertune/Power Vision/Direct Link), and there are options to use wideband O2 data (PV with Target Tune and widebands, TTS Green VCI used with WEGO, Direct Link with their wideband setup) to adjust the non closed loop areas of the map ( high load/WOT)
Some units will do basic areas of the map through "smart tune" (SEST & FP3).
These are all good ways to adjust fuel/timing, but if you want all areas of the map calibrated for the components installed, and the map optimized for your bike, an experienced, qualified tuner is still the best way to go.  Or learn a whole lot of new things while becoming a tuner, yourself.
Given the amount of good tuners on this site, has to be someone close "ish" to you.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Hossamania

October 31, 2019, 06:01:21 PM #2 Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 06:14:48 PM by Hossamania
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,103837.0.html

Some interesting reading on self tuners and Dyno tuning.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

hollywood63

Holy smokers Batman looks like I have some catching up to do. 

Thanks Guys

hulkss

I have a 2019 FLHCS Softail M8 114 with the only engine mods being the SE 447 torque cam and S&S EPA legal slip-on mufflers that have catalylitic converters in them. I had the dealer add the SE Smart Tune PRO Automatic Tuning Module (with wideband O2 sensors). It was tuned with the SE Pro Street Tuner on the dealer's dynamometer. Some of the VE cells are at their limit of adjustment with this tuner. The Auto-Tune module has a broader range for fuel trim settings than is available with the standard narrowband sensors so it should compensate. The bike runs great and is fully EPA legal. The ignition timing is at the original factory settings.

I've included a copy of the fuel table from the street tuner (normally lambda but most like to see AFR)





98fxstc

November 03, 2019, 12:19:12 AM #5 Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 12:27:32 AM by 98fxstc
Quote from: hulkss on November 02, 2019, 09:21:06 PM
I have a 2019 FLHCS Softail M8 114 with the only engine mods being the SE 447 torque cam and S&S EPA legal slip-on mufflers that have catalylitic converters in them. I had the dealer add the SE Smart Tune PRO Automatic Tuning Module (with wideband O2 sensors). It was tuned with the SE Pro Street Tuner on the dealer's dynamometer. Some of the VE cells are at their limit of adjustment with this tuner. The Auto-Tune module has a broader range for fuel trim settings than is available with the standard narrowband sensors so it should compensate. The bike runs great and is fully EPA legal. The ignition timing is at the original factory settings.

I've included a copy of the fuel table from the street tuner (normally lambda but most like to see AFR)






Curious about the highlighted statement.
Doesn't fit with my understanding of tuning

Do you have an AFR graph ?

rigidthumper

The AFR/Lambda table is non adjustable , so "The Auto-Tune module has a broader range for fuel trim settings than is available with the standard narrowband sensors so it should compensate", is not accurate. It has the ability to gather data in a broader O2 range.
There is no difference between the wideband SE maps and the standard narrowband SE maps, other than the ability to use wideband data for feedback instead of narrowband data.   Still limited to +/- 4% VE adjustment in the closed loop area, which on his map is under 30% throttle, 0-2500 RPM. Outside of this range, +/- 10% is all you get- the widebands may be able to give you usable data in this area, but your ability to adjust is still limited. This is why "Some of the VE cells are at their limit of adjustment with this tuner."
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

hulkss

I believe that the Smart Tune Pro Module can trim the fuel flow based on sensor feedback to correct the VE table deficiencies when operating in closed-loop. This is what I meant by "compensate".


HV

Quote from: rigidthumper on November 03, 2019, 04:15:58 AM
The AFR/Lambda table is non adjustable , so "The Auto-Tune module has a broader range for fuel trim settings than is available with the standard narrowband sensors so it should compensate", is not accurate. It has the ability to gather data in a broader O2 range.
There is no difference between the wideband SE maps and the standard narrowband SE maps, other than the ability to use wideband data for feedback instead of narrowband data.   Still limited to +/- 4% VE adjustment in the closed loop area, which on his map is under 30% throttle, 0-2500 RPM. Outside of this range, +/- 10% is all you get- the widebands may be able to give you usable data in this area, but your ability to adjust is still limited. This is why "Some of the VE cells are at their limit of adjustment with this tuner."


I run in to this all the time with ALL SE Maps ....yes the Wide bands can correct BUT ....all maps stop letting you OR the Auto Tune correct past a point...and even using all SE add ons the maps are off in a lot of areas so far that they are useless .....If you change to a Non SE pipe or Cam etc the Auto tune wide band system is worthless ...as are the stock narrow bands for that matter
HV HTT Admin ..Ride Safe ...But Ride informed with HTT !!
Skype HV.HTT

hulkss

Acording to the Street Tuner documentation one of the values I can data log is "VE New Value" this is what the VE table value should be based on feedback from the O2 sensors. Since they are wideband sensors with Smart Tune Pro, I can see how far off the VE table is for all the cells I can hit while riding. I can then correct the VE tables within the allowed limits. I assume the ECU learns and trims fuel to the new values if the VE tables are not ideally corrected.

Hilly13

Hulkss what Robin and HV are saying is the  software will not allow you to alter the VE beyond a set amount, doesn't matter how you go about it or what the bike actually needs, only way to give it what it needs to be tuned properly is with an aftermarket tuner of which there are several good ones, unfortunately the street tuner is not one of them.
Just because its said don't make it so

rigidthumper

November 04, 2019, 04:58:51 AM #11 Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 05:03:41 AM by rigidthumper
Limits with Street Tuner vs limits with the old Super Tuner. SEST shows +/- 4 or 10% max, if you need more, too bad.  Super tuner shows split screen- left side max (127.5 VE) and right side shows minimum (40 VE). Combined with the ability to change AFR requested, displacement, and injector size, extends those limits to most anything you may want.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

HV

Another example.... lets say this block needs to be changed to either blend the VE or match an AFR reading from a sniffer.....wide band or narrow band 02 ......the cells in light blue can be changed....the red cells are to the max that HD allows regardless of what you want to change them too
HV HTT Admin ..Ride Safe ...But Ride informed with HTT !!
Skype HV.HTT

hulkss

Quote from: Hilly13 on November 04, 2019, 04:28:42 AM
Hulkss what Robin and HV are saying is the  software will not allow you to alter the VE beyond a set amount, doesn't matter how you go about it or what the bike actually needs, only way to give it what it needs to be tuned properly is with an aftermarket tuner of which there are several good ones, unfortunately the street tuner is not one of them.

I understand that. The VE tables have limits on the Street tuner.

My question is: Does the wideband auto tuning module from H-D measure and save fuel trim values to correct VE deficiencies beyond the limits of the VE tables?

rigidthumper

No- while widebands allow more accurate data outside of the closed loop area, HD limits the allowable AFRs and VEs.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

hulkss

Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2019, 09:23:46 AM
No- while widebands allow more accurate data outside of the closed loop area, HD limits the allowable AFRs and VEs.

So the following statement in the H-D Smart Tune Pro literature is not accurate?

"It ensures that the target air/fuel ratios are achieved every revolution. Since every revolution is measured and adjusted to hit the targets, the adjustment range that the module can account for is essentially doubled. This ensures that all the different combinations of intake and exhaust and bike-to-bike variation are completely within the adjustable range of the module."

The base calibration files are different so they may allow for a wider adjustment range. Yes, I realize the AFR targets are locked, that's why I posted the AFR table.

rigidthumper

As long as SE legal components are used, as those are tested to be in compliance..
Anything else (S&S, AN, D&D, V&H) isn't tested- and can not be covered by their statements.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

hulkss

Yes, this is all all assuming an emissions compliant build and tune.

I am running CARB compliant non-Harley mufflers from S&S that contain high flow Catalytic Converters. My understanding is that this is OK with both the EPA and H-D.




hulkss

For non-EPA builds on 2018 and prior canbus bikes, the SE Pro Super Tuner does work with the Smart Tune Pro wideband tuning module.

Hilly13

It's all in the wording, the target might well be achieved each revolution but who decides what that target is?
Just because its said don't make it so

rigidthumper

"My understanding is that this is OK with both the EPA and H-D."
Nope- HD corp will never warranty any S&S part.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

hulkss

Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2019, 11:48:17 AM
"My understanding is that this is OK with both the EPA and H-D."
Nope- HD corp will never warranty any S&S part.

I'm not expecting H-D to warranty an S&S part. I'm expecting them to warranty the rest of the bike.

Here is a quote from the written warranty for my 2019: "The use of non-Harley-Davidson replacement parts does not invalidate the existing warranty, if any, on other Harley-Davidson components unless the non-Harley-Davidson parts cause damage to warrented parts or result in the creation of an emissions non-compliant motorcycle."

According to the S&S certificate I posted, the bike is still emissions compliant.

hulkss

Quote from: Hilly13 on November 04, 2019, 11:39:23 AM
It's all in the wording, the target might well be achieved each revolution but who decides what that target is?

The fuel target I posted was decided by H-D and locked. Actually, it does not look to bad in my opinion. Find a Pro Super Tuner and you can decide.

Hossamania

Quote from: hulkss on November 04, 2019, 12:06:36 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2019, 11:48:17 AM
"My understanding is that this is OK with both the EPA and H-D."
Nope- HD corp will never warranty any S&S part.

I'm not expecting H-D to warranty an S&S part. I'm expecting them to warranty the rest of the bike.

Here is a quote from the written warranty for my 2019: "The use of non-Harley-Davidson replacement parts does not invalidate the existing warranty, if any, on other Harley-Davidson components unless the non-Harley-Davidson parts cause damage to warrented parts or result in the creation of an emissions non-compliant motorcycle."

According to the S&S certificate I posted, the bike is still emissions compliant.

The bike may be emissions compliant, but can HD say it was not HD compliant, and caused any claimed engine damage?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

hulkss

Quote from: Hossamania on November 04, 2019, 12:13:15 PM
Quote from: hulkss on November 04, 2019, 12:06:36 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 04, 2019, 11:48:17 AM
"My understanding is that this is OK with both the EPA and H-D."
Nope- HD corp will never warranty any S&S part.

I'm not expecting H-D to warranty an S&S part. I'm expecting them to warranty the rest of the bike.

Here is a quote from the written warranty for my 2019: "The use of non-Harley-Davidson replacement parts does not invalidate the existing warranty, if any, on other Harley-Davidson components unless the non-Harley-Davidson parts cause damage to warrented parts or result in the creation of an emissions non-compliant motorcycle."

According to the S&S certificate I posted, the bike is still emissions compliant.

The bike may be emissions compliant, but can HD say it was not HD compliant, and caused any claimed engine damage?

As they say: "if the non-Harley-Davidson parts cause damage", well yes, then I am screwed as far as the warranty goes. If H-D calls it "emissions non-compiant" whay whould companies like S&S, Rinehart, and V&H spend big money to certify compliant parts. They are obviously trying to work within the rules, not against them.

HV

From my experience   IF you have an issue with the Bike ( IE Sumping with Engine Damage ) and HD sees ( sends an inspector as Extended warranty often does  ) a NON HD part of ANY Kind..... S&S tested compliant or not they can and HAVE refused and branded Bikes Power train warranty as invalid  The first thing they will look at is the pipes ,Mufflers,Intake System   Getting a Part Certified emissions compliant  is one thing.....getting it HD Certified is another
HV HTT Admin ..Ride Safe ...But Ride informed with HTT !!
Skype HV.HTT

Hossamania

Quote from: HV on November 04, 2019, 12:54:40 PM
From my experience   IF you have an issue with the Bike ( IE Sumping with Engine Damage ) and HD sees ( sends an inspector as Extended warranty often does  ) a NON HD part of ANY Kind..... S&S tested compliant or not they can and HAVE refused and branded Bikes Power train warranty as invalid  The first thing they will look at is the pipes ,Mufflers,Intake System   Getting a Part Certified emissions compliant  is one thing.....getting it HD Certified is another

That is where I was trying to go with my statement.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

HV

Yes it does suck that they do this too....but having had more then one customers Bikes warranty refused is not a fun thing...we all know that in most cases a set of pipes etc will not hurt a bike and the damage ive seen from sumping etc had absolutely nothing to do with Pipes.... Ac... or tuner for that matter .....but any excuse they can find to kill the warranty they seem to be looking for.... not like it used to be when they tried to work with Customers .....now its the opposite....
HV HTT Admin ..Ride Safe ...But Ride informed with HTT !!
Skype HV.HTT

hulkss

Quote from: HV on November 04, 2019, 12:54:40 PM
From my experience   IF you have an issue with the Bike ( IE Sumping with Engine Damage ) and HD sees ( sends an inspector as Extended warranty often does  ) a NON HD part of ANY Kind..... S&S tested compliant or not they can and HAVE refused and branded Bikes Power train warranty as invalid  The first thing they will look at is the pipes ,Mufflers,Intake System   Getting a Part Certified emissions compliant  is one thing.....getting it HD Certified is another

H-D can certainly do as they please, however, there is no requirement to use H-D certified parts. The warranty clearly states: "The use of non-Harley-Davidson replacement parts does not invalidate the existing warranty, if any, on other Harley-Davidson components unless the non-Harley-Davidson parts cause damage to warrented parts or result in the creation of an emissions non-compliant motorcycle."

I used emissions compliant parts, had H-D install them, and had H-D tune them with their tuner. I believe I've met the requirements for warranty unless the S&S muffler causes damage to the bike. I doubt that it will.

Back on topic, the bike sounds and runs great with the "Self Tuner" installed . According to the technician, better than others with the Street Tuner alone.

HV

I agree 100% that the Bike will run better with the Auto Tuner system then the Street Tuner alone ...... Its as good as you will get using the HD Tuner ..... :up:
HV HTT Admin ..Ride Safe ...But Ride informed with HTT !!
Skype HV.HTT

Pirsch Fire Wagon

Quote from: hulkss on November 04, 2019, 11:22:10 AM
For non-EPA builds on 2018 and prior canbus bikes, the SE Pro Super Tuner does work with the Smart Tune Pro wideband tuning module.

EVERYTHING Harley sells is CA Compliant - There is no more Federal Compliant Parts
Tom

hulkss

Speaking of "Self Tuners". For comparison I downloaded the ThunderMax software and opened a tune file for my bike.

Wow....the AFR at cruise conditions is really rich. Any good reason for that?

[attach=0]


Pirsch Fire Wagon

Quote from: hulkss on November 04, 2019, 04:24:17 PM
Speaking of "Self Tuners". For comparison I downloaded the ThunderMax software and opened a tune file for my bike.

Wow....the AFR at cruise conditions is really rich. Any good reason for that?

[attach=0,msg1321638]

My understanding when I used to Tune them as I was told when asking a very similar question was   "...our initial tunes are set the way they are to ensure they work across many platforms... it's up to the end-user to make the appropriate corrections...."

When I lived in Maryland I would peek my head in every once and a while and chat. That was prior to them being sold. IMO since sale their support has suffered some. Perhaps because they have expanded and become a larger business not necessarily "needing the new customer". That was back in 2005

You could call them directly and inquire.
Tom