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Broken valve springs

Started by ben31, November 03, 2019, 06:22:36 AM

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ben31

November 03, 2019, 06:22:36 AM Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 07:45:55 AM by ben31
Five months ago, I completely rebuilt my CVO 110 Softail Deluxe, from the crankcase to the top.

I built a 117 using the SE kit, with SE259 cams, 58mm TB, 5.3 injectors.
I installed a better camplate, a Zippers relief valve, a high flow pump, S&S chain tensioners, Gaterman hydraulic lifters, Smith Bros adjustable pushrods.
For the bottom, I kept the crankshaft as there was very few runout, and I hadn't the budget for a better one. I replaced the primary chain tensionner by a Hayden M6, added washers to the compensator.
For the top end, I had the heads ported, intake valve replaced, valve seats reworked, heads shaved to adjust volume for the right compression, and double springs replaced by AV&V 600 beehive springs. Heads installed with .030 Cometic, Rockout lockers.
I cleaned everything, replaced every bearing and gasket.
I checked the valve/piston clearance.

Bike is running with a PowerVision calbration and Target Tune.

5000 miles since the rebuilt, front cylinder still running weird.

I opened and found the two front valve springs broken.

The bike never run too hot, and the under side of the piston is as new, no color due to overheating.

I wrote to my head preparator, and we are waiting the answer from AV&V...


[attach=0,msg1321439]
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

Don D

November 03, 2019, 06:26:16 AM #1 Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 07:37:09 AM by HD Street Performance
I wrote to my head preparator, and we are waiting the answer from AV&V

So lets say they warranty them. Are you going back with the same springs? I had them break too and I no longer use them. Not a problem with AV&V great products, just beehive springs not brand specific. I use small diameter duals, no flat dampner, or conicals.

kd

KD

ben31

I was looking for kinder springs than HD 100 double springs...
For this reason, I didn't even have a look at the double AV&V. If they are more appropriate, it could be an option.

Any suggestion is welcome!
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

ben31

So if Av&V do propose an exchange, I should ask for VSK600 or VSK650, T or S kit, instead of VSK6000 I had installed the first time.
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

wfolarry

If they warranty it get the 650's.
The only way to break that top coil is from contact. Take a closer look or take some pictures from the top looking down & maybe I'll see something.
I use a LOT of AV&V beehive springs without any problems. I only use the 650's on either the 5/16 or the 7mm.
You have to pay attention to the setup.

ben31

Exhaust spring

[attach=0,msg1321456] 

[attach=1,msg1321456]

[attach=2,msg1321456]
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

ben31

Intake spring

[attach=0]

[attach=1]

[attach=2]
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

ben31

The cams are only .579 lift. Should have match with the .600 springs!
The rear cylinder and head had no problem...
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

Don D

Both broken and in the same spot tells a story. I am not sure what is wrong but I am sure Larry will chime in.

wfolarry

Looking at the contact patch on the valve tip you had a problem with setup.
My first guess would be installed height.

wfolarry

Take a look at your cam & lifters on that cylinder. They will tell a story too.

ben31

No noticeable wear on the roller, nor on the cams.

I am wondering when it happens. Is it possible to have an engine run for thousands miles with springs like this?
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

jsachs1

Better check valve to piston, valve to valve, or be careful that you don't over rev. I agree with Larry the valve made contact as it didn't drop ( retainer and keepers are intact).
John

Hossamania

As an aside, I thought there were issues with Gatorman lifters.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

jsachs1

Quote from: ben31 on November 03, 2019, 01:13:26 PM
No noticeable wear on the roller, nor on the cams.

I am wondering when it happens. Is it possible to have an engine run for thousands miles with springs like this?
Absolutely NOT.

TorQuePimp

Looks very much like coil bind
The avv springs aren't a bolt on item
The duals will be no different
Valve stem protrusion will need to be addressed
There's other ways with different.....better springs

ben31

Quote from: TorQuePimp on November 03, 2019, 07:03:48 PM
Looks very much like coil bind
The avv springs aren't a bolt on item
The duals will be no different
Valve stem protrusion will need to be addressed
There's other ways with different.....better springs

So what would be your advice for my setup?

Larry wrote he uses AV&V without issues... If AV&V warranty the springs and propose an exchange, I believe I'll accept instead of buying new ones.


Quote from: jsachs1 on November 03, 2019, 04:28:09 PM
Absolutely NOT.

Believe it or not, but I opened the engine to check what was going on, after I took a look with an endoscope.
But I was using my bike every day, and I didn't stop because all of a sudden, something happened!

So yes, I rode with broken springs, but how much time is what I wonder?
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

Hilly13

Good you caught it before any major damage occurred, thing is now getting it fixed properly without a blame game, are you able to check the spring installation specs yourself?
Just because its said don't make it so

ben31

No, working on the heads is the only thing I had done, because I have no tools and not enough knowledge to do it.

I can changing the springs, but there will be others things to check, so I will probably send the head again to the preparator.
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

FXDBI

Quote from: ben31 on November 04, 2019, 05:15:30 AM
No, working on the heads is the only thing I had done, because I have no tools and not enough knowledge to do it.

I can changing the springs, but there will be others things to check, so I will probably send the head again to the preparator.

Thinking you need a new head guy I sure wouldn't trust the same guy a 2nd time! You got lucky once. I would send both heads out to a professional head guy and get them gone thru!  Bob

kd

KD

ben31

November 04, 2019, 07:05:36 AM #22 Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 07:10:45 AM by ben31
You're tough Bob! "My" head guy is a professional, working only on HD heads... I think he is trustworthy and skilled.

And it was hard to find someone to make the job. No one around here, I had to send the heads in another country in Europe.
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

kd

Before you return the heads to him, ask him if he checks coil bind and valve stem protrusion. Also, what was done with the new valves and seat work that may effect both of those specs? Were they checked after the work?  Questions that need to be asked.  If you don't understand the responses share them here.
KD

ben31

Here is the work report he sent me:

Heads received in good condition, stripped, soda blasted and inspected.  Intake and exhaust port work completed including bowl, short side radius and guide boss profiling. The stock intake valves were replaced with modified AV & V 2.10 inch valves and a precision four angle valve job was performed on the intake seats. The stock exhaust valves were retained and the seats have a two angle and a radius profile. The stock valve springs were replaced with AV & V 0.600 inch lift performance beehive springs which were set up to provide 170lbs pressure on the seat and 350lbs at the peak lift of the SE 259E cam. The combustion chambers were equalized at 87.8cc to give a static compression ratio of 10.73:1 and a corrected compression ratio of 9.56:1 at 117 inches with Cometic 4.16" x 0.030" gaskets and 0.010" deck height. Viton valve stem seals were fitted and all of the valve seats were vacuum tested to ensure a gas tight seal. TDC valve to valve clearance has been checked, valve to piston clearance must be checked before starting the engine.


Here is some additionnal info he wrote by email:

The rear head had 0.055" of material removed and the front head 0.051" to get them both to 87.8cc. This is just about the limit for these CVO heads so
you'll have to carefully check the TDC valve to piston clearance before starting the engine.
[...]
The valve stem protrusion is now 2.025" from the original which varied from 2.007" to 2.012".

FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

TorQuePimp

If nothing else the AV&V springs advertised installed pressures are pretty spot on
If using stock valves and the vsk600 springs
You will need a minimum of 2.045 tip height to get a 1.86 installed height
You're head preparator is short on installed height......factually
He stated 5 lbs more installed pressure than advertised......if his spring tester is off a little.....makes sense
Compounding this issue
The avv&v 2.10 valve is longer than stock.....and will need to be addressed as the valve head will hang further into the chamber

Don D

I know stated valve to valve was checked but in my experience with these parts it sounds suspect.  Torqueinc says is right

jsachs1

November 04, 2019, 03:13:18 PM #27 Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 03:17:57 PM by jsachs1
At 2.025" valve protrusion, you're safe with stock length valves. Be aware that some O/Size valves are shorter than the factory stock valves, and some are longer. ie: 120R intake is .040" shorter than a 110 intake.
John

ben31

When doing the build, I checked the clearance with modeling clay. I don't remember the result (I think I still have the clay in the garage, if my son didn't reshape it), but the valves were far from hitting the piston. (And the piston has a deck height of 0.01)
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

Thermodyne

Those springs look like they were in beehive coil bind.  And its real hard to check with that type of spring.

It's probably an issue with the set up, but could also be the wrong springs.  Springs get mislabeled/boxed.  Once you move away from oem springs, you have to check them before installing. 

On that set, they are probably progressively coiled.  So its very difficult to check them in the head.  Test them on the bench, set then at installed height, as per your heads measured dimension.  Then crank in the cam lift times the measured rocker ratio.  If you see any coil that has bind above the second coil from the bottom, you either need to add installed height or get different springs.

For a street motor, as a general rule, take the advertised lift the spring is capable of and multiply it by .9.  That's the best maximum cam lift for that spring.  So a .600 lift spring would be best if the cam was .540 lift or less.  A .650 lift spring would be fine with a cam up to .585 lift.  But, even with a .065 margin on a .650 spring, they should be checked for coil bind. 

kd

Quote from: ben31 on November 05, 2019, 12:58:28 AM
When doing the build, I checked the clearance with modeling clay. I don't remember the result (I think I still have the clay in the garage, if my son didn't reshape it), but the valves were far from hitting the piston. (And the piston has a deck height of 0.01)

Did you check valve to valve clearance too?
KD

ben31

I haven't cleaned the head, for the evidence, but it seems both valves are ok.
The v to v clearence was checked by the head guy...
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

Don D

These are cvo110 heads so v to v will be fine in the valve sizes and protrusion used. I misspoke before thought they were 103 heads with big valves

Hillside Motorcycle

AV&V .650"s are a good spring, as are the same/same in Kibblewhite.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

barny7655

 Notice this breakage is the same on the two sides  .We have come accross this on the  gm ecotec holden 6 and the GM LS  V8 motors with STD applications, what we found was the valve spring does not move parrell up and down , they move side ways ,like your got it in your fingers squeesing  one side and bubbling out the other , this in turn  causes like coil bind on one side ,caused by no dampeners, or a inner spring to stop this happening ,so whats the fix ,different springs? or ones that arent going to bulge outwards under pressure,
riding since 62, BSA bantum the first bike

barny7655

Forgot to mention, why they break , caused by a twisting action on the upper two coils,and a coil bind on the compressed side, not the normal up and down movement,its like a prey bar between the coils and lifting one side , hope this makes sense,sure does to our investigations , cheers
riding since 62, BSA bantum the first bike

Don D

No more beehives, I run doubles. These are good for .700. Set in at 1.8 at 155# and 400# @ .1.2

Hilly13

Quote from: barny7655 on November 07, 2019, 05:53:45 PM
Forgot to mention, why they break , caused by a twisting action on the upper two coils,and a coil bind on the compressed side, not the normal up and down movement,its like a prey bar between the coils and lifting one side , hope this makes sense,sure does to our investigations , cheers

What did you find as the cause? To my mind it could be the valve guide is not 90° to the spring seat or the springs themselves are not right to begin with?
Just because its said don't make it so

ben31

Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 07, 2019, 07:17:43 PM
No more beehives, I run doubles. These are good for .700. Set in at 1.8 at 155# and 400# @ .1.2

I chose to run beehives rightly to get rid of 110 OEM very hard doubles...

In which way these doubles (who makes them?) are better or more appropriate than CVO doubles?

There are two solutions: I replace AV&V 600 by "better" beehives, or I go to good doubles...
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

wfolarry

Quote from: barny7655 on November 07, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
Notice this breakage is the same on the two sides  .We have come accross this on the  gm ecotec holden 6 and the GM LS  V8 motors with STD applications, what we found was the valve spring does not move parrell up and down , they move side ways ,like your got it in your fingers squeesing  one side and bubbling out the other , this in turn  causes like coil bind on one side ,caused by no dampeners, or a inner spring to stop this happening ,so whats the fix ,different springs? or ones that arent going to bulge outwards under pressure,
What causes that is the top not being ground square to the bottom. If you have a beehive spring that looks like the top is tilted to one side when it's on the bench don't use it. This problem was corrected a few years ago but you never know if you're getting old stock so it's worth a look.

Rockout Rocker Products

The "twisting" on those particular springs may be excessive, but all compression springs work by twisting, not bending. A spring is basically a torsion bar wrapped in a circle. Stress on a compression spring is torsional, stress on a torsion spring (not bar) is in bending.

My guess is that the twisting on the springs in question was focused in one spot rather than distributed as it should be.


www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Don D

November 08, 2019, 06:14:48 AM #41 Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 06:19:27 AM by HD Street Performance
Quote from: ben31 on November 08, 2019, 01:06:53 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 07, 2019, 07:17:43 PM
No more beehives, I run doubles. These are good for .700. Set in at 1.8 at 155# and 400# @ .1.2

I chose to run beehives rightly to get rid of 110 OEM very hard doubles...

In which way these doubles (who makes them?) are better or more appropriate than CVO doubles?

There are two solutions: I replace AV&V 600 by "better" beehives, or I go to good doubles...

I also use conicals which are not a beehive. There is a place for either. The conicals have a lower seat pressure than stock but are stout with a strong spring rate. In other words start easy then have plenty of pressure to prevent lofting over the nose. This is easy on lifter bores (side thrust) and lifters. Plus with decent lifters the 22-2400rpm harmonics (noise) are gone assuming everything else is right.

Doubles are a step up for higher >.620 lift, same spring rate but allow higher lift to coil bind. Still down 20# from the stockers on the seat and 50# rate and run quiet.
Either are easier on the installation due to a smaller spring OD, retainer interference with the lower boxes, especially the early CVOs or twin cams without lower rocker box reliefs at the spring tops.

I do not sell these springs because it takes setup to get the spring pack heights right. I can't spend my time helping guys do that, as much as I enjoy it, just not enough time in the day.

FSG

a little OT but I had spring problems 7 or 8 years ago, had Airguns (3000 psi) for Geo-technical Work, these Airguns had sets of light springs, 24 to a set. ....

so I went and spent a few hours with a local spring expert  https://www.natspring.com.au/   

problem solved   :up:    :SM:

RTMike

A couple of shops here on the island had a problem with the AV&V 600 springs breaking and the supplier Parts Canada replaced all of the 600 springs with AV&V 650 units.I didn't have any isues but only have 650 springs as of this.
Something else to think of is Goodson is only selling Kibllewhite replacement valve train parts now.They both have good products just an observation.

barny7655

The causes can be wide ranged , spring tempering , metal as in batches being produced , seemed strange we had the failures on certain models of the ecotech 6 and V8  LS 1s, I do like the bee hives, the idea is great but has its failures , is it the angle of the rockers ,rocker ratio, lift , worn guides pushing valve stem to one side,weak springs, no inner support,over reeving , did the two springs break at the same time on this post,did the rear wheel lock up ,has this happened to others with the same batch of springs ? a good post, suppose its up to the builder of your motor, to pick what he thinks is going to do the job for your build,as to twisting of the springs they do but has to be uniform ,not in one area ,as the beehives start from the top compressing down to the bottom coils, unlike others where the spring compresses as one action , try your springs on a pressure tester watching how it occurs at different lifts, watching the gauge, taking it just past your over all lift rate for that spring, EG  600 lift = 610 compressed, watching for coil bind and spring disstortion, i shim the valve head seat, if you have the  height to get the right pressures or try another spring , ,cheers Barny
riding since 62, BSA bantum the first bike

ben31

Here is finally the answer the head preparator received from AV&V:

Just so you and the owner know we've had a few issues in the past with these springs which led us to a change in design. [ ... ] we will replace the kit under warranty for the one your client wants.  If you  can make sure that set-up is good (stem protrusion, installed height and watch for coil blind) as I'm sure you will, you won't have any problems with either VSK650S's or VSK6500's.

The point is I had wish they would make a commercial gesture for "collateral damages": I must send again heads for a new rebuild session, shipment, work, some little parts...
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

barny7655

At least they have said they have had issues , unlike some who just replace with out a cause, seems they did have a concern over some of their springs, you can be sure you werent the only one that has had issues, as long as their product has a up dated P# as to old stock being recalled ,youve done well as to a answer , cheers
riding since 62, BSA bantum the first bike

PanHeadRed

Sportster springs, always have been. Irresponsible to be marketing them as manna from heaven for so many years. Especially for 110 size and up.