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Broken valve springs

Started by ben31, November 03, 2019, 06:22:36 AM

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TorQuePimp

If nothing else the AV&V springs advertised installed pressures are pretty spot on
If using stock valves and the vsk600 springs
You will need a minimum of 2.045 tip height to get a 1.86 installed height
You're head preparator is short on installed height......factually
He stated 5 lbs more installed pressure than advertised......if his spring tester is off a little.....makes sense
Compounding this issue
The avv&v 2.10 valve is longer than stock.....and will need to be addressed as the valve head will hang further into the chamber

Don D

I know stated valve to valve was checked but in my experience with these parts it sounds suspect.  Torqueinc says is right

jsachs1

November 04, 2019, 03:13:18 PM #27 Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 03:17:57 PM by jsachs1
At 2.025" valve protrusion, you're safe with stock length valves. Be aware that some O/Size valves are shorter than the factory stock valves, and some are longer. ie: 120R intake is .040" shorter than a 110 intake.
John

ben31

When doing the build, I checked the clearance with modeling clay. I don't remember the result (I think I still have the clay in the garage, if my son didn't reshape it), but the valves were far from hitting the piston. (And the piston has a deck height of 0.01)
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

Thermodyne

Those springs look like they were in beehive coil bind.  And its real hard to check with that type of spring.

It's probably an issue with the set up, but could also be the wrong springs.  Springs get mislabeled/boxed.  Once you move away from oem springs, you have to check them before installing. 

On that set, they are probably progressively coiled.  So its very difficult to check them in the head.  Test them on the bench, set then at installed height, as per your heads measured dimension.  Then crank in the cam lift times the measured rocker ratio.  If you see any coil that has bind above the second coil from the bottom, you either need to add installed height or get different springs.

For a street motor, as a general rule, take the advertised lift the spring is capable of and multiply it by .9.  That's the best maximum cam lift for that spring.  So a .600 lift spring would be best if the cam was .540 lift or less.  A .650 lift spring would be fine with a cam up to .585 lift.  But, even with a .065 margin on a .650 spring, they should be checked for coil bind. 

kd

Quote from: ben31 on November 05, 2019, 12:58:28 AM
When doing the build, I checked the clearance with modeling clay. I don't remember the result (I think I still have the clay in the garage, if my son didn't reshape it), but the valves were far from hitting the piston. (And the piston has a deck height of 0.01)

Did you check valve to valve clearance too?
KD

ben31

I haven't cleaned the head, for the evidence, but it seems both valves are ok.
The v to v clearence was checked by the head guy...
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

Don D

These are cvo110 heads so v to v will be fine in the valve sizes and protrusion used. I misspoke before thought they were 103 heads with big valves

Hillside Motorcycle

AV&V .650"s are a good spring, as are the same/same in Kibblewhite.
Otto Knowbetter sez, "Even a fish wouldn't get caught if he kept his mouth shut"

barny7655

 Notice this breakage is the same on the two sides  .We have come accross this on the  gm ecotec holden 6 and the GM LS  V8 motors with STD applications, what we found was the valve spring does not move parrell up and down , they move side ways ,like your got it in your fingers squeesing  one side and bubbling out the other , this in turn  causes like coil bind on one side ,caused by no dampeners, or a inner spring to stop this happening ,so whats the fix ,different springs? or ones that arent going to bulge outwards under pressure,
riding since 62, BSA bantum the first bike

barny7655

Forgot to mention, why they break , caused by a twisting action on the upper two coils,and a coil bind on the compressed side, not the normal up and down movement,its like a prey bar between the coils and lifting one side , hope this makes sense,sure does to our investigations , cheers
riding since 62, BSA bantum the first bike

Don D

No more beehives, I run doubles. These are good for .700. Set in at 1.8 at 155# and 400# @ .1.2

Hilly13

Quote from: barny7655 on November 07, 2019, 05:53:45 PM
Forgot to mention, why they break , caused by a twisting action on the upper two coils,and a coil bind on the compressed side, not the normal up and down movement,its like a prey bar between the coils and lifting one side , hope this makes sense,sure does to our investigations , cheers

What did you find as the cause? To my mind it could be the valve guide is not 90° to the spring seat or the springs themselves are not right to begin with?
Just because its said don't make it so

ben31

Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 07, 2019, 07:17:43 PM
No more beehives, I run doubles. These are good for .700. Set in at 1.8 at 155# and 400# @ .1.2

I chose to run beehives rightly to get rid of 110 OEM very hard doubles...

In which way these doubles (who makes them?) are better or more appropriate than CVO doubles?

There are two solutions: I replace AV&V 600 by "better" beehives, or I go to good doubles...
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

wfolarry

Quote from: barny7655 on November 07, 2019, 04:20:43 PM
Notice this breakage is the same on the two sides  .We have come accross this on the  gm ecotec holden 6 and the GM LS  V8 motors with STD applications, what we found was the valve spring does not move parrell up and down , they move side ways ,like your got it in your fingers squeesing  one side and bubbling out the other , this in turn  causes like coil bind on one side ,caused by no dampeners, or a inner spring to stop this happening ,so whats the fix ,different springs? or ones that arent going to bulge outwards under pressure,
What causes that is the top not being ground square to the bottom. If you have a beehive spring that looks like the top is tilted to one side when it's on the bench don't use it. This problem was corrected a few years ago but you never know if you're getting old stock so it's worth a look.

Rockout Rocker Products

The "twisting" on those particular springs may be excessive, but all compression springs work by twisting, not bending. A spring is basically a torsion bar wrapped in a circle. Stress on a compression spring is torsional, stress on a torsion spring (not bar) is in bending.

My guess is that the twisting on the springs in question was focused in one spot rather than distributed as it should be.


www.rockout.biz Stop the top end TAPPING!!

Don D

November 08, 2019, 06:14:48 AM #41 Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 06:19:27 AM by HD Street Performance
Quote from: ben31 on November 08, 2019, 01:06:53 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on November 07, 2019, 07:17:43 PM
No more beehives, I run doubles. These are good for .700. Set in at 1.8 at 155# and 400# @ .1.2

I chose to run beehives rightly to get rid of 110 OEM very hard doubles...

In which way these doubles (who makes them?) are better or more appropriate than CVO doubles?

There are two solutions: I replace AV&V 600 by "better" beehives, or I go to good doubles...

I also use conicals which are not a beehive. There is a place for either. The conicals have a lower seat pressure than stock but are stout with a strong spring rate. In other words start easy then have plenty of pressure to prevent lofting over the nose. This is easy on lifter bores (side thrust) and lifters. Plus with decent lifters the 22-2400rpm harmonics (noise) are gone assuming everything else is right.

Doubles are a step up for higher >.620 lift, same spring rate but allow higher lift to coil bind. Still down 20# from the stockers on the seat and 50# rate and run quiet.
Either are easier on the installation due to a smaller spring OD, retainer interference with the lower boxes, especially the early CVOs or twin cams without lower rocker box reliefs at the spring tops.

I do not sell these springs because it takes setup to get the spring pack heights right. I can't spend my time helping guys do that, as much as I enjoy it, just not enough time in the day.

FSG

a little OT but I had spring problems 7 or 8 years ago, had Airguns (3000 psi) for Geo-technical Work, these Airguns had sets of light springs, 24 to a set. ....

so I went and spent a few hours with a local spring expert  https://www.natspring.com.au/   

problem solved   :up:    :SM:

RTMike

A couple of shops here on the island had a problem with the AV&V 600 springs breaking and the supplier Parts Canada replaced all of the 600 springs with AV&V 650 units.I didn't have any isues but only have 650 springs as of this.
Something else to think of is Goodson is only selling Kibllewhite replacement valve train parts now.They both have good products just an observation.

barny7655

The causes can be wide ranged , spring tempering , metal as in batches being produced , seemed strange we had the failures on certain models of the ecotech 6 and V8  LS 1s, I do like the bee hives, the idea is great but has its failures , is it the angle of the rockers ,rocker ratio, lift , worn guides pushing valve stem to one side,weak springs, no inner support,over reeving , did the two springs break at the same time on this post,did the rear wheel lock up ,has this happened to others with the same batch of springs ? a good post, suppose its up to the builder of your motor, to pick what he thinks is going to do the job for your build,as to twisting of the springs they do but has to be uniform ,not in one area ,as the beehives start from the top compressing down to the bottom coils, unlike others where the spring compresses as one action , try your springs on a pressure tester watching how it occurs at different lifts, watching the gauge, taking it just past your over all lift rate for that spring, EG  600 lift = 610 compressed, watching for coil bind and spring disstortion, i shim the valve head seat, if you have the  height to get the right pressures or try another spring , ,cheers Barny
riding since 62, BSA bantum the first bike

ben31

Here is finally the answer the head preparator received from AV&V:

Just so you and the owner know we've had a few issues in the past with these springs which led us to a change in design. [ ... ] we will replace the kit under warranty for the one your client wants.  If you  can make sure that set-up is good (stem protrusion, installed height and watch for coil blind) as I'm sure you will, you won't have any problems with either VSK650S's or VSK6500's.

The point is I had wish they would make a commercial gesture for "collateral damages": I must send again heads for a new rebuild session, shipment, work, some little parts...
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

barny7655

At least they have said they have had issues , unlike some who just replace with out a cause, seems they did have a concern over some of their springs, you can be sure you werent the only one that has had issues, as long as their product has a up dated P# as to old stock being recalled ,youve done well as to a answer , cheers
riding since 62, BSA bantum the first bike

PanHeadRed

Sportster springs, always have been. Irresponsible to be marketing them as manna from heaven for so many years. Especially for 110 size and up.