Unlocking Hidden Horsepower

[SB107]

I am wondering what ideas people have that would help squeeze the maximum amount of wheel horsepower out of a build. A few examples I have heard are: high flow oil filter (less power required to pump oil), gear drive cams, roller rockers.

This doesnt have to be just motor related, it can be driveline related as well. I am just looking to leave as little on the table as possible.

What are some ways you would maximize the straight line performance on your ride?

[jamminhd2000]

There are so many dyno tuners out there that claim to be the best....buyer beware...research your dyno tune guy....talk to people who have used their dyno services...I beleive there is a section here on htt that gives you a list to prepare before hitting the dyno....jimmy

[jamminhd2000]

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,35334.0.html

[Hossamania]

Are we talking race motor or street bike?
Ceramic wheel bearings will reduce a lot of parasitic drag. Run light oil in the motor, tranny, primary. Maybe none in the primary if a true 1/4 mile drag bike. Gear drive cams.
Need a few more details on the intended riding conditions. What type of bike?

[rigidthumper]

Drag strip kind of straight line performance? Put those ceramic wheel bearings in Carbon Fiber wheels. Lose weight anywhere you can without sacrificing safety (drilling frame to reduce weight makes sense until it folds up on ya ).

[Hossamania]

Turbo, supercharger, nitrous, all kinds of ways to squeeze maximum horsepower.
Custom made titanium exhaust, tested and modified with Dyno testing to verify results.
Aluminum or titanium replacing everything made of steel that can safely be replaced, including the frame.

[Hossamania]

What kind of budget are we talking about?
There was a no replacement for displacement. Except maybe the three power adders listed above.

[ThumperDeuce]

Decrease rotational mass.

[PoorUB]

Buy something with more performance potential to start with!

[chaos901]

Buy something with more performance potential to start with!

Now that's not "hidden HP", that would be real HP. 

[jmorton10]

Turbo, supercharger, nitrous, all kinds of ways to squeeze maximum horsepower.

I've run all three of these options at various points over the years.  Nitrous is definitely the best bang for the buck of these three options......

~John

[SixShooter14]

I don't know how heavy you are. But many times losing rider weight can greatly improve performance without much wrenching.

[Hossamania]

I don't know how heavy you are. But many times losing rider weight can greatly improve performance without much wrenching.

Speaking from personal experience, it's easier to buy horsepower...

[guido4198]

I don't know how heavy you are. But many times losing rider weight can greatly improve performance without much wrenching.

I had a buddy many years ago who decided to build a Harley drag bike and get on the "All-Harley Drag" circuit.
This guy bought ALL the best pieces and parts from all the best shops. Carbon fiber, ceramics, super hi-tech stuff from all over. He quoted some costs to his old lady once for some billet titanium he was having custom fabricated so that (as he explained to her).."he'd be pulling less weight down the track". She promptly told him to get off his fat azz and just lose 20 lbs..

[SB107]

Are we talking race motor or street bike?
Ceramic wheel bearings will reduce a lot of parasitic drag. Run light oil in the motor, tranny, primary. Maybe none in the primary if a true 1/4 mile drag bike. Gear drive cams.
Need a few more details on the intended riding conditions. What type of bike?

Street/Strip Build
2007 Dyna
124"
12:1 Compression
Mutant Motors 110 heads
Mutant Motors custom exhaust
TW68G Cam
HPI 62mm

Future Upgrades:
40 Shot
Stretched Swingarm
R&D Trans
Air Shifter

Overall goal is consistent 10s on 93 pump gas.

Im just looking at things to upgrade while it's apart. It will be mostly street ridden, with weekend trips to the drag strip.

[SB107]

Drag strip kind of straight line performance? Put those ceramic wheel bearings in Carbon Fiber wheels. Lose weight anywhere you can without sacrificing safety (drilling frame to reduce weight makes sense until it folds up on ya ).

Not looking for more performance in the twisties, just looking to get a consistent street/strip bike.

I really want an aluminum +4" Swingarm, possibly drop some weight on the front end as well.

Also I 100% agree about the safety aspect, I want a fun bike not looking to break any records with it.

[SB107]

What kind of budget are we talking about?
There was a no replacement for displacement. Except maybe the three power adders listed above.

5k is about where I would like to draw the line this time around. Already dumping plenty into the motor and driveline build.

[SB107]

I don't know how heavy you are. But many times losing rider weight can greatly improve performance without much wrenching.

Working on that too. Currently 230lbs, down from 290lbs in January, Hoping for under 200 by spring.

[rigidthumper]

Pingle shifter. Bandit clutch. Busa forks. Shinko stealth tire.
Practice

[PoorUB]

What kind of budget are we talking about?
There was a no replacement for displacement. Except maybe the three power adders listed above.

5k is about where I would like to draw the line this time around.

5K? more of a starting point!

[PoorUB]

Are we talking race motor or street bike?
Ceramic wheel bearings will reduce a lot of parasitic drag. Run light oil in the motor, tranny, primary. Maybe none in the primary if a true 1/4 mile drag bike. Gear drive cams.
Need a few more details on the intended riding conditions. What type of bike?

Street/Strip Build
2007 Dyna
124"
12:1 Compression
Mutant Motors 110 heads
Mutant Motors custom exhaust
TW68G Cam
HPI 62mm

Future Upgrades:
40 Shot
Stretched Swingarm
R&D Trans
Air Shifter

Overall goal is consistent 10s on 93 pump gas.

Im just looking at things to upgrade while it's apart. It will be mostly street ridden, with weekend trips to the drag strip.

No crankshaft upgrade?

If I was going 124" and knowing it was going to get beat on at the track often I would be looking over the $&$ catalog.

Another reason I think you $5k "line in the sand" is low.

[FXDBI]

Blue print the engine has you build it!   Bob

[JW113]

Unlocking Hidden Horsepower. I think I've seen at least two dozen books with that same title.

-JW

[Hossamania]

Ray (No Cents) uses ceramic wheel bearings and said the bike rolls much easier, and when a wheel is spun, it actually keeps spinning rather than just stopping after a turn or two. Pretty cheap find of hidden horsepower. Every little piece counts.
A story in that regard: a friend of mine got his kid into go kart racing, and started researching just like you, to find hidden horsepower. He learned that the wheel bearings with grease in them would stop spinning after a couple revolutions. But if the grease was cleaned out, and they were lubed with Tri Flow, they would spin 20 or more revolutions, not a long term fix, but the bearings would last plenty long for the length of a race, he would just relube them before every race. It wasn't a huge improvement, but it allowed the kart to roll so much better, taking maybe a few tenths of a second or more off per lap. Not a lot of time, but it adds up to a few seconds at the end of ten laps.
At the beginning of the year, his kid ran dead last or close to it, of course. By the end of the year, his kid was running up front and had even won a race. The next three years he took the championships.
A mother came up to him and told him they cheat, that's why by they win. He says, interesting. We came out here yesterday and practiced all day, used up a brand new set of tires, changing air pressures, practicing different lines thru corners, changing Jets in the carberator, and keeping detailed notes on what worked and what didn't. Funny, we haven't seen you or your kid out here practicing all year. So if that's cheating, yes, we cheat.

[SB107]

What kind of budget are we talking about?
There was a no replacement for displacement. Except maybe the three power adders listed above.

5k is about where I would like to draw the line this time around.

5K? more of a starting point!

I already will have 15k+ into the motor and drivetrain.

[SB107]

Are we talking race motor or street bike?
Ceramic wheel bearings will reduce a lot of parasitic drag. Run light oil in the motor, tranny, primary. Maybe none in the primary if a true 1/4 mile drag bike. Gear drive cams.
Need a few more details on the intended riding conditions. What type of bike?

Street/Strip Build
2007 Dyna
124"
12:1 Compression
Mutant Motors 110 heads
Mutant Motors custom exhaust
TW68G Cam
HPI 62mm

Future Upgrades:
40 Shot
Stretched Swingarm
R&D Trans
Air Shifter

Overall goal is consistent 10s on 93 pump gas.

Im just looking at things to upgrade while it's apart. It will be mostly street ridden, with weekend trips to the drag strip.

No crankshaft upgrade?

If I was going 124" and knowing it was going to get beat on at the track often I would be looking over the $&$ catalog.

Another reason I think you $5k "line in the sand" is low.

Darkhorse Man-O-War 4 5/8 crank.

[SB107]

Ray (No Cents) uses ceramic wheel bearings and said the bike rolls much easier, and when a wheel is spun, it actually keeps spinning rather than just stopping after a turn or two. Pretty cheap find of hidden horsepower. Every little piece counts.
A story in that regard: a friend of mine got his kid into go kart racing, and started researching just like you, to find hidden horsepower. He learned that the wheel bearings with grease in them would stop spinning after a couple revolutions. But if the grease was cleaned out, and they were lubed with Tri Flow, they would spin 20 or more revolutions, not a long term fix, but the bearings would last plenty long for the length of a race, he would just relube them before every race. It wasn't a huge improvement, but it allowed the kart to roll so much better, taking maybe a few tenths of a second or more off per lap. Not a lot of time, but it adds up to a few seconds at the end of ten laps.
At the beginning of the year, his kid ran dead last or close to it, of course. By the end of the year, his kid was running up front and had even won a race. The next three years he took the championships.
A mother came up to him and told him they cheat, that's why by they win. He says, interesting. We came out here yesterday and practiced all day, used up a brand new set of tires, changing air pressures, practicing different lines thru corners, changing Jets in the carberator, and keeping detailed notes on what worked and what didn't. Funny, we haven't seen you or your kid out here practicing all year. So if that's cheating, yes, we cheat.

That was a good read. Thanks for sharing that info. I would like to have a similar game plan, going in and testing, trying new things. I will be doing this as a hobby. No record braking, just something to challenge myself and pass time.

[PoorUB]

Darkhorse Man-O-War 4 5/8 crank.

So this is an existing build you are "freshening up"?

I was thinking it was a nearly stock drive line and you were going 124" with the parts mentioned.

[SB107]

Darkhorse Man-O-War 4 5/8 crank.

So this is an existing build you are "freshening up"?

I was thinking it was a nearly stock drive line and you were going 124" with the parts mentioned.

The engine is being built this winter. While the bike is apart I was looking for ways to minimize parasitic loss to ensure the bike is performing as optimal as possible.

[jam65]

While "worked on"110 heads provide a lot of performance , have you considered S&S B2 cylinder heads?

[SB107]

While "worked on"110 heads provide a lot of performance , have you considered S&S B2 cylinder heads?

Possibly in the future. If I went that route I would raise compression way high and make it a race only build,

[jmorton10]

A story in that regard: a friend of mine got his kid into go kart racing, and started researching just like you, to find hidden horsepower. He learned that the wheel bearings with grease in them would stop spinning after a couple revolutions. But if the grease was cleaned out, and they were lubed with Tri Flow, they would spin 20 or more revolutions, not a long term fix, but the bearings would last plenty long for the length of a race,

I have a similar story. A guy I know owns a roller skating rink.  The bearings in the rental skates where going bad at an alarming rate costing him a fortune in repairs.

The he discovered TriFlow.  He said as soon as he started lubing all the over 100 pairs of skate wheels that ways they virtually lasted forever.

~John

[PC_Hater]

Replace iron and steel parts with aluminium and titanium. Fit 7/8" Renthal alumium handlebars.
Sumax fibreglass mudguards.
Lighter wheels help handling and reduce power losses.
At 60mph in top gear the lighter wheels I fitted to my FLTR gave me about an extra 0.5HP, but the faster you go the less power you lose to rotational inertia compared to original parts. And it is a square law, Inertia = mass x radius x radius.
Use a nice light lithium battery.
It is all time-consuming detailed work.

One of the best privateer UK Manx Norton tuners would spend hours on minor details. In this day and age he would be using ceramic bearings, he used to time how long a wheel would spin for and modify the bearings if it stopped too soon.

[Evo160K]

I don't know how heavy you are. But many times losing rider weight can greatly improve performance without much wrenching.

Speaking from personal experience, it's easier to buy horsepower...

Hossamania,

Thanks for the BIG laugh!

[Carl 1969]

Decrease rotational mass.

This. Lighter wheels make a huge difference in ride, handling & acceleration by reducing a bunch of both rotating & unsprung mass. Went to light weight, forged alu rims on a big bore metric bike I used to have & the difference was amazing. Not cheap, but worth ever penny IMO.

[dirty jim]

There was a guy back in the '70s who ran a twin engine Triumph who wouldn't paint it because it was extra weight. How crazy do you want to get??

[Norton Commando]

Decrease rotational mass.

[thumper 823]

Hidden Power? LOL
HD sells the bike leaving a lot on the table!
You are supposed to come back and buy their BS , bolt on ons of chrome crap, and be happy.
If you want lots of power you have to define where. 
When.
Most anyone can build for a dyno shootout and get your numbers all high and tweeky . Yea they look great.
But almost useless in the real world.

To get real answers and not automated answers the need arises to talk to people that understand more than armchair answers.
The whole bike needs to be thought of as an orchestra and tunning for the best song. Or  you just do a lot of one thing!
You get one instrument the loudest.
Good illustration right?

Money spent already on a build means almost nothing if they charged you a lot and all you got just big compression and a clunky cam.
The best money spent is a line at the bottom of the page with the goal you want and fill in the blanks above the line .
This way you are just not throwing parts and machine work hoping for better.

To build a better machine your doctor has top ask you a lot of questions or you will get someone else idea of a better machine.
Again to get the most you are also reducing usable miles between top ends.
The best valve job for high power is not going to give high mileage between needing another one.
I build mine for 20K between top ends ..It is on the ragged edge for touring. Narrow seats towards the top will net most power but..last only so long
On and on we could go.
Rather then me trying to exfoliate and exhume all I know - talk to a machine shop / builder that has a great reputation.
Scott at Hillside Harley is a good man and will steer you in the right direction.
There may be others .
There used to be others I looked UP to but they have slowly eroded away like T & O .
Bonnie was fun to talk to and both the dudes knew their stuff.....but it went to heill along time ago when the retired..
Same with Lake Shore.
There is a lot of hype on the net-you have to separate the chaff from the grain.

[kd]

   and ditto about T&O and Lakeshore.  I see others headed that way now (RBR?). As discussed in another thread recently it may not be horsepower you need to unlock.  In general terms of "power" meaning the right combination of "torque" and "horsepower" can sometimes be shifted by gearing changes, drive components as said such as ceramic brgs., blueprinting and other mods.  It's all about how bad you want the benefits of the changes.  Some return more "power" per $ than others.  Some adversely  change the effect of previous choices.

[calif phil]

If your bike was an early TC then changing over to a CE 3 phase charging system would get rid of some drag. 

[pwmorris]

 OP-
I ran a 10 second street/strip bike for years. Lots of work but lots of fun as well.
Post a couple pictures of your Dyna.
Let's start with that, as I want to see what there to work with right now.
Forget the 5 grand budget. You will find more money if you really want this....

[kd]

OP-
I ran a 10 second street/strip bike for years. Lots of work but lots of fun as well.
Post a couple pictures of your Dyna.
Let's start with that, as I want to see what there to work with right now.
Forget the 5 grand budget. You will find more money if you really want this....

  Now ain't that the truth.   

[IronButt70]

OP-
I ran a 10 second street/strip bike for years. Lots of work but lots of fun as well.
Post a couple pictures of your Dyna.
Let's start with that, as I want to see what there to work with right now.
Forget the 5 grand budget. You will find more money if you really want this....

  Now ain't that the truth.   

Something like if want to unlock horsepower just unlock your wallet. 

[ThumperDeuce]

It is embarrassing to think about how much $$$ I've sunk into my scoot.

[rigidthumper]

All $ spent on motorcycles/parts for motorcycles/shop to work on motorcycles/tools to work on motorcycles/dyno to test motorcycles/etc is considered therapy at my house.

[thumper 823]

All $ spent on motorcycles/parts for motorcycles/shop to work on motorcycles/tools to work on motorcycles/dyno to test motorcycles/etc is considered therapy at my house.

I am sure I could have bought a couple of brand new HD, but mine is mine and there is no other one like.
So I am neither embarrassed or ASHAMED.
Between custom tin work, constant engine rearrangement, it is a pretty nice old Evo and ride it anywhere with as much confidence may be more than a new one.
I have no computers or fuel injection to go afoul (except Daytona TT)  . It has not ever let me dwn but I do carry a spare.

[chaos901]

All $ spent on motorcycles/parts for motorcycles/shop to work on motorcycles/tools to work on motorcycles/dyno to test motorcycles/etc is considered therapy at my house.

Going out and working on something because you want to (as opposed to being paid to do so) is absolutely therapy, no question.  Good too.

[Ironheadmike]

Cam gears is just a maintenance thing so you don't have to change shoes . All roller rockers do is allow you to use a higher lift cam . They don't add any HP .

[Hossamania]

Cam gears is just a maintenance thing so you don't have to change shoes . All roller rockers do is allow you to use a higher lift cam . They don't add any HP .

Cam gears unlock a small bit of horsepower. The drag of the spring loaded tensioners is measurable when turned by hand compared to gears. Not a lot, but it is quite obvious when side by side.
Gear drives also eliminate the small timing changes that can occur from the tensioners deflecting. Not enough to worry about for a street bike, but if going for every bit of power on the track, it can matter.

[SB107]

OP-
I ran a 10 second street/strip bike for years. Lots of work but lots of fun as well.
Post a couple pictures of your Dyna.
Let's start with that, as I want to see what there to work with right now.
Forget the 5 grand budget. You will find more money if you really want this....

Shorter handlebars will go on before I go to the track, as well as a seat with more lower back support. Also I will be ditching the spokes.

The 5 grand is for extended swingarm, ceramic bearings, air shifter, etc...

[SB107]

Cam gears is just a maintenance thing so you don't have to change shoes . All roller rockers do is allow you to use a higher lift cam . They don't add any HP .

Cam gears unlock a small bit of horsepower. The drag of the spring loaded tensioners is measurable when turned by hand compared to gears. Not a lot, but it is quite obvious when side by side.
Gear drives also eliminate the small timing changes that can occur from the tensioners deflecting. Not enough to worry about for a street bike, but if going for every bit of power on the track, it can matter.

Thanks for this info!

[thumper 823]

Cam gears is just a maintenance thing so you don't have to change shoes . All roller rockers do is allow you to use a higher lift cam . They don't add any HP .

Cam gears unlock a small bit of horsepower. The drag of the spring loaded tensioners is measurable when turned by hand compared to gears. Not a lot, but it is quite obvious when side by side.
Gear drives also eliminate the small timing changes that can occur from the tensioners deflecting. Not enough to worry about for a street bike, but if going for every bit of power on the track, it can matter.

Parisitcal drag -rollers allow the cam to overcome the springs a bit more EZ and stops the side shuffle against the guides.
So if we are looking for the ounces instead of the clumps rollers will help in a couple of places.

I HATE NASCAR, but they have rolled back oil P. just save Hp for the rear wheels.
They coat everything now with magic this and ceramic that.
So it is the little things that add up

[Hossamania]

Don't discount the effect of drag. No mirrors, turn signals, tighten up the cables and wiring harness to the bars etc. Get rid of the highway pegs if present. Go with rearset foot controls if you're really going for it. In Nascar at the super speedways, anything that sees wind gets contoured, even any bolts or nuts that hang below the car get shaved at the leading edge to make them "pointy" rather than blunt. One of those Sons of Anarchy bubble fairings probably help direct wind around the front end.
Extreme? Hell yes, but on a track every little bit counts.
Also, struts rather than shocks, tie down the front end a bit. This at the track, not so much for the street.

[build it]

The coatings used in NASCAR are anything but glamorous or exclusive at the top level.

You would achieve more from proper machining. Not the, run it so every thing seats properly approach so common in this world. Rings for example, should be ready to rock on first fire up; this assumes a proper tune of course.

[thumper 823]

Rings and full power at first fire up?
Engine coatings no good?

You will have to explain your sources for this as Swains will tell you they do Nasty car.
High-end piston rings like Diamond at a a 1000 bucks a set al have procedures.
Ron at Axtell has his own thermal break-in procedure.
I am not here for an argument and have been around the block for sure and would like your slant on things.
I have had many pistons coated, moly and other tricks on different kinds of engines and can explain some good results.
This last engine we have not dynoed  yet, but with ceramics and twin-plug I am hoping to trespass some norms.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-0612-engine-coatings/

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/polymer-coatings-engine-bearings-science-behind/

[build it]

Rings and full power at first fire up?
Engine coatings no good?

You will have to explain your sources for this as Swains will tell you they do Nasty car.
High-end piston rings like Diamond at a a 1000 bucks a set al have procedures.
Ron at Axtell has his own thermal break-in procedure.
I am not here for an argument and have been around the block for sure and would like your slant on things.
I have had many pistons coated, moly and other tricks on different kinds of engines and can explain some good results.
This last engine we have not dynoed  yet, but with ceramics and twin-plug I am hoping to trespass some norms.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-0612-engine-coatings/

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/polymer-coatings-engine-bearings-science-behind/

I didn't say coatings weren't any good, but, I will say in a laboratory setting coatings won't change the world (I won't qualify that statement with numbers, which I have). I know for a fact why some particular items get coated and the answer provokes nothing less than shock and awe.

In the same lab setting, "break in" is done in under 5 minutes, then it's wfo.

For example, one I'm willing to discuss with you, but that I learned as a student and later implemented, there is power in a flatter crosshatch. How flat, do you want to know? Are you going to call me a liar?

[thumper 823]

Every type of ring (and material)  of course needs a requirement and the RA and hatch measured on the wall.
Speaking of Harley I [attach=0]  only have 10 lbs direct drag piston in cylinder B4 installation [attach=1]
This is measured on an accurate scale several times with repeatable results .
Everyone says it would be an oil blower.
Nope.
last time I was at 13 pounds so I thought I would set it lighter .
At the crank, they measure less than 5 pounds drag
Speaking of Harley I [attach=0]  only have 10 lbs direct drag piston in cylinder B4 installation

[thumper 823]

The pic above ^
Supposed to say-
Each of these pistons has a drag of 10 pounds.!
Only Five at the crank when rotated which is almost nothing compared to cheap crap.
If looking for hidden horsepower this is the cat's arse!
Why? - because regular rings will net you over 30 pounds of drag and a LOT more.!
What that means is every stroke is eating up power moving the extra 30 pounds of parasitical drag.
Turning it into heat rather than get up and go.
Using quality rings the drag can be adjusted by bending the tabs on the inner oil ring spacer.
Keep in mind the spacer can be installed upside dwn..most people don't know that and it is not a good thing.
Finding extra power is the devil in the details trick.

[IronButt70]

The pic above ^
Supposed to say-
Each of these pistons has a drag of 10 pounds.!
Only Five at the crank when rotated which is almost nothing compared to cheap crap.
If looking for hidden horsepower this is the cat's arse!
Why? - because regular rings will net you over 30 pounds of drag and a LOT more.!
What that means is every stroke is eating up power moving the extra 30 pounds of parasitical drag.
Turning it into heat rather than get up and go.
Using quality rings the drag can be adjusted by bending the tabs on the inner oil ring spacer.
Keep in mind the spacer can be installed upside dwn..most people don't know that and it is not a good thing.
Finding extra power is the devil in the details trick.

When I raced 2 cycle outboards we would use moly rings to reduce drag. Made a big difference. Would it make a difference for a say a TC and are they even available?

[thumper 823]

There are all kinds of rings available once you call a Piston Ring maker and leave the generic crap alone.
Anyone that installs off the shelf 30 to 45 pound ring drag stuff is NUTZ!
The Caveat is you have to have all the information so they can help you.
Size is no problem-
You have to be brutally honest with yourself as to the use of the engine.
The information is - type of use, what mods done or to be done, cylinder  wall material and a PROPER hone, not the
caveman with a drill and stones!
The shop doing it needs to have the instrument to read the finish, not just micrometers.
As I stated earlier, different rings demand different break-in procedures, the old rules no longer apply.
Lots of builders have gone to the short short runs like 15 seconds and add to it after cool dwn with fans to stop micro-welding.

[Phu Cat]

One thing I've learned just from reading about guys that start hot-rod projects is to NOT throw random parts together and then expect great HP gains.  Always use parts that have demonstrated their ability to work with the rest of the parts you choose to use.

PC

[thumper 823]

 [attach=1,msg1325118] And you are exactly correct.
I always tell people, " put the bottom line / goal on the paper then fill in the blanks above "

As far as coatings here is what swains did for me last time.
They did combustion chambers, piston tops,   valves, ports/ in ceramic, and skirts in some kind of super slippery magic.


  [attach=0,msg1325118]

[IronButt70]

[attach=1,msg1325118] And you are exactly correct.
I always tell people, " put the bottom line / goal on the paper then fill in the blanks above "

As far as coatings here is what swains did for me last time.
They did combustion chambers, piston tops,   valves, ports/ in ceramic, and skirts in some kind of super slippery magic.


  [attach=0,msg1325118]

What kind of difference did all those coatings make? Just curious.

[thumper 823]

I could not answer that without lying , as I would have to assemble it without coatings and dyno it,  and then run it all coated.
But I am sure if that is the only thing you are doing for performance it is not worth it.
If one runs correct low drag rings ,  coatings and all the little details the percentage will rise.
If you call Swains I am sure they can give you a ballpark.

[1workinman]

What kind of budget are we talking about?
There was a no replacement for displacement. Except maybe the three power adders listed above.

5k is about where I would like to draw the line this time around.

5K? more of a starting point!

I already will have 15k+ into the motor and drivetrain.

That part is easy to believe trust me

[thumper 823]

What kind of budget are we talking about?
There was a no replacement for displacement. Except maybe the three power adders listed above.

5k is about where I would like to draw the line this time around.

5K? more of a starting point!

I already will have 15k+ into the motor and drivetrain.

That part is easy to believe trust me

As many of us have said and pointed out- fill in the bottom line as the final goal of what the engine will do, or be.
2, -Now go back up the page and fill in the blanks.
For many many folks a bigger bore kit , or a larger stroke  (both)  is the utopia the all-out engine performance.
For others that is just a starting point, a beginning.
So for monies spent there is no standard amount.
If you want performance and don't know how to get it now you are stuck being a psychiatrist sorting the BS from real.
There is a lot of BS sold in the Harley world that will add supposed power.
For instance, every time I see someone with that vacuum flapper valve air filters I laugh my arse off.  Yet it is sad at the same time that someone got sucked (argh argh)   into paying so much for such a POS add on.
Be careful of supposed bolt on add power parts...

[Barrett]

Does the piston top coating cover the stamped labels? I'm wondering if they need to be marked on the bottom.

[thumper 823]

 [attach=0,msg1325327] These pistons were custom shaped -If you want an area left undone just tell them.

[thumper 823]

1994 83 in Evo  ,
not quite done, I am making a couple more adjuments and then back to a dyno.
[attach=0,msg1362428]