March 28, 2024, 05:37:50 PM

News:

For advertising inquiries or help with registration or other issues, you may contact us by email at help@harleytechtalk.com


Unlocking Hidden Horsepower

Started by SB107, November 08, 2019, 07:53:36 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

SB107

Quote from: PoorUB on November 09, 2019, 06:53:01 AM
Quote from: SB107 on November 09, 2019, 04:54:11 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on November 08, 2019, 09:31:05 AM
Are we talking race motor or street bike?
Ceramic wheel bearings will reduce a lot of parasitic drag. Run light oil in the motor, tranny, primary. Maybe none in the primary if a true 1/4 mile drag bike. Gear drive cams.
Need a few more details on the intended riding conditions. What type of bike?


Street/Strip Build
2007 Dyna
124"
12:1 Compression
Mutant Motors 110 heads
Mutant Motors custom exhaust
TW68G Cam
HPI 62mm

Future Upgrades:
40 Shot
Stretched Swingarm
R&D Trans
Air Shifter

Overall goal is consistent 10s on 93 pump gas.

Im just looking at things to upgrade while it's apart. It will be mostly street ridden, with weekend trips to the drag strip.

No crankshaft upgrade?

If I was going 124" and knowing it was going to get beat on at the track often I would be looking over the $&$ catalog.

Another reason I think you $5k "line in the sand" is low.

Darkhorse Man-O-War 4 5/8 crank.
Mutant Motors 124"
161/148 STD, 158/145 SAE

SB107

Quote from: Hossamania on November 09, 2019, 09:44:30 AM
Ray (No Cents) uses ceramic wheel bearings and said the bike rolls much easier, and when a wheel is spun, it actually keeps spinning rather than just stopping after a turn or two. Pretty cheap find of hidden horsepower. Every little piece counts.
A story in that regard: a friend of mine got his kid into go kart racing, and started researching just like you, to find hidden horsepower. He learned that the wheel bearings with grease in them would stop spinning after a couple revolutions. But if the grease was cleaned out, and they were lubed with Tri Flow, they would spin 20 or more revolutions, not a long term fix, but the bearings would last plenty long for the length of a race, he would just relube them before every race. It wasn't a huge improvement, but it allowed the kart to roll so much better, taking maybe a few tenths of a second or more off per lap. Not a lot of time, but it adds up to a few seconds at the end of ten laps.
At the beginning of the year, his kid ran dead last or close to it, of course. By the end of the year, his kid was running up front and had even won a race. The next three years he took the championships.
A mother came up to him and told him they cheat, that's why by they win. He says, interesting. We came out here yesterday and practiced all day, used up a brand new set of tires, changing air pressures, practicing different lines thru corners, changing Jets in the carberator, and keeping detailed notes on what worked and what didn't. Funny, we haven't seen you or your kid out here practicing all year. So if that's cheating, yes, we cheat.

That was a good read. Thanks for sharing that info. I would like to have a similar game plan, going in and testing, trying new things. I will be doing this as a hobby. No record braking, just something to challenge myself and pass time.
Mutant Motors 124"
161/148 STD, 158/145 SAE

PoorUB

Quote from: SB107 on November 09, 2019, 10:40:47 AM

Darkhorse Man-O-War 4 5/8 crank.

So this is an existing build you are "freshening up"?

I was thinking it was a nearly stock drive line and you were going 124" with the parts mentioned.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

SB107

Quote from: PoorUB on November 09, 2019, 02:21:07 PM
Quote from: SB107 on November 09, 2019, 10:40:47 AM

Darkhorse Man-O-War 4 5/8 crank.

So this is an existing build you are "freshening up"?

I was thinking it was a nearly stock drive line and you were going 124" with the parts mentioned.

The engine is being built this winter. While the bike is apart I was looking for ways to minimize parasitic loss to ensure the bike is performing as optimal as possible.
Mutant Motors 124"
161/148 STD, 158/145 SAE

jam65

While "worked on"110 heads provide a lot of performance , have you considered S&S B2 cylinder heads?

SB107

Quote from: jam65 on November 10, 2019, 08:54:29 AM
While "worked on"110 heads provide a lot of performance , have you considered S&S B2 cylinder heads?


Possibly in the future. If I went that route I would raise compression way high and make it a race only build,
Mutant Motors 124"
161/148 STD, 158/145 SAE

jmorton10

A story in that regard: a friend of mine got his kid into go kart racing, and started researching just like you, to find hidden horsepower. He learned that the wheel bearings with grease in them would stop spinning after a couple revolutions. But if the grease was cleaned out, and they were lubed with Tri Flow, they would spin 20 or more revolutions, not a long term fix, but the bearings would last plenty long for the length of a race,

I have a similar story. A guy I know owns a roller skating rink.  The bearings in the rental skates where going bad at an alarming rate costing him a fortune in repairs.

The he discovered TriFlow.  He said as soon as he started lubing all the over 100 pairs of skate wheels that ways they virtually lasted forever.

~John
HC 124", Dragula, Pingel air shift W/Dyna Shift Minder & onboard compressor, NOS

PC_Hater

Replace iron and steel parts with aluminium and titanium. Fit 7/8" Renthal alumium handlebars.
Sumax fibreglass mudguards.
Lighter wheels help handling and reduce power losses.
At 60mph in top gear the lighter wheels I fitted to my FLTR gave me about an extra 0.5HP, but the faster you go the less power you lose to rotational inertia compared to original parts. And it is a square law, Inertia = mass x radius x radius.
Use a nice light lithium battery.
It is all time-consuming detailed work.

One of the best privateer UK Manx Norton tuners would spend hours on minor details. In this day and age he would be using ceramic bearings, he used to time how long a wheel would spin for and modify the bearings if it stopped too soon.
1942 WLA45 chop, 1999 FLTR(not I), 2000 1200S

Evo160K

Quote from: Hossamania on November 08, 2019, 11:54:12 PM
Quote from: SixShooter14 on November 08, 2019, 12:20:04 PM
I don't know how heavy you are. But many times losing rider weight can greatly improve performance without much wrenching.

Speaking from personal experience, it's easier to buy horsepower...

Hossamania,

Thanks for the BIG laugh!

Carl 1969

Quote from: ThumperDeuce on November 08, 2019, 10:28:59 AM
Decrease rotational mass.

This. Lighter wheels make a huge difference in ride, handling & acceleration by reducing a bunch of both rotating & unsprung mass. Went to light weight, forged alu rims on a big bore metric bike I used to have & the difference was amazing. Not cheap, but worth ever penny IMO.
Lieber stehend sterben, als kniend leben
Sergeant First Class, US Army, Retired

dirty jim

There was a guy back in the '70s who ran a twin engine Triumph who wouldn't paint it because it was extra weight. How crazy do you want to get??

Norton Commando

Remember, you can sleep in your car, but you can't drive your house.

thumper 823

Hidden Power? LOL
HD sells the bike leaving a lot on the table!
You are supposed to come back and buy their BS , bolt on ons of chrome crap, and be happy.
If you want lots of power you have to define where. 
When.
Most anyone can build for a dyno shootout and get your numbers all high and tweeky . Yea they look great.
But almost useless in the real world.

To get real answers and not automated answers the need arises to talk to people that understand more than armchair answers.
The whole bike needs to be thought of as an orchestra and tunning for the best song. Or  you just do a lot of one thing!
You get one instrument the loudest.
Good illustration right?

Money spent already on a build means almost nothing if they charged you a lot and all you got just big compression and a clunky cam.
The best money spent is a line at the bottom of the page with the goal you want and fill in the blanks above the line .
This way you are just not throwing parts and machine work hoping for better.

To build a better machine your doctor has top ask you a lot of questions or you will get someone else idea of a better machine.
Again to get the most you are also reducing usable miles between top ends.
The best valve job for high power is not going to give high mileage between needing another one.
I build mine for 20K between top ends ..It is on the ragged edge for touring. Narrow seats towards the top will net most power but..last only so long
On and on we could go.
Rather then me trying to exfoliate and exhume all I know - talk to a machine shop / builder that has a great reputation.
Scott at Hillside Harley is a good man and will steer you in the right direction.
There may be others .
There used to be others I looked UP to but they have slowly eroded away like T & O .
Bonnie was fun to talk to and both the dudes knew their stuff.....but it went to heill along time ago when the retired..
Same with Lake Shore.
There is a lot of hype on the net-you have to separate the chaff from the grain.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

kd

November 23, 2019, 06:11:23 AM #38 Last Edit: November 23, 2019, 06:25:10 AM by kd
 :agree:  and ditto about T&O and Lakeshore.  I see others headed that way now (RBR?). As discussed in another thread recently it may not be horsepower you need to unlock.  In general terms of "power" meaning the right combination of "torque" and "horsepower" can sometimes be shifted by gearing changes, drive components as said such as ceramic brgs., blueprinting and other mods.  It's all about how bad you want the benefits of the changes.  Some return more "power" per $ than others.  Some adversely  change the effect of previous choices.
KD

calif phil

If your bike was an early TC then changing over to a CE 3 phase charging system would get rid of some drag. 

pwmorris

 OP-
I ran a 10 second street/strip bike for years. Lots of work but lots of fun as well.
Post a couple pictures of your Dyna.
Let's start with that, as I want to see what there to work with right now.
Forget the 5 grand budget. You will find more money if you really want this....

kd

Quote from: pwmorris on November 23, 2019, 01:41:25 PM
OP-
I ran a 10 second street/strip bike for years. Lots of work but lots of fun as well.
Post a couple pictures of your Dyna.
Let's start with that, as I want to see what there to work with right now.
Forget the 5 grand budget. You will find more money if you really want this....

:hyst: :hyst:  Now ain't that the truth.   :wink:
KD

IronButt70

Quote from: kd on November 23, 2019, 01:49:53 PM
Quote from: pwmorris on November 23, 2019, 01:41:25 PM
OP-
I ran a 10 second street/strip bike for years. Lots of work but lots of fun as well.
Post a couple pictures of your Dyna.
Let's start with that, as I want to see what there to work with right now.
Forget the 5 grand budget. You will find more money if you really want this....

:hyst: :hyst:  Now ain't that the truth.   :wink:
Something like if want to unlock horsepower just unlock your wallet.  :chop:
No one else put you on the road you're on. It's your own asphalt.

ThumperDeuce

It is embarrassing to think about how much $$$ I've sunk into my scoot.
Idiots are fun, no wonder every village wants one.

rigidthumper

All $ spent on motorcycles/parts for motorcycles/shop to work on motorcycles/tools to work on motorcycles/dyno to test motorcycles/etc is considered therapy at my house.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

thumper 823

Quote from: rigidthumper on November 24, 2019, 08:08:42 AM
All $ spent on motorcycles/parts for motorcycles/shop to work on motorcycles/tools to work on motorcycles/dyno to test motorcycles/etc is considered therapy at my house.


I am sure I could have bought a couple of brand new HD, but mine is mine and there is no other one like.
So I am neither embarrassed or ASHAMED.
Between custom tin work, constant engine rearrangement, it is a pretty nice old Evo and ride it anywhere with as much confidence may be more than a new one.
I have no computers or fuel injection to go afoul (except Daytona TT)  . It has not ever let me dwn but I do carry a spare.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

chaos901

QuoteAll $ spent on motorcycles/parts for motorcycles/shop to work on motorcycles/tools to work on motorcycles/dyno to test motorcycles/etc is considered therapy at my house.

Going out and working on something because you want to (as opposed to being paid to do so) is absolutely therapy, no question.  Good too.
"There are only two truly infinite things, the universe and stupidity." AE

Ironheadmike

Cam gears is just a maintenance thing so you don't have to change shoes . All roller rockers do is allow you to use a higher lift cam . They don't add any HP .

Hossamania

Quote from: Ironheadmike on November 25, 2019, 07:48:35 AM
Cam gears is just a maintenance thing so you don't have to change shoes . All roller rockers do is allow you to use a higher lift cam . They don't add any HP .

Cam gears unlock a small bit of horsepower. The drag of the spring loaded tensioners is measurable when turned by hand compared to gears. Not a lot, but it is quite obvious when side by side.
Gear drives also eliminate the small timing changes that can occur from the tensioners deflecting. Not enough to worry about for a street bike, but if going for every bit of power on the track, it can matter.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

SB107

Quote from: pwmorris on November 23, 2019, 01:41:25 PM
OP-
I ran a 10 second street/strip bike for years. Lots of work but lots of fun as well.
Post a couple pictures of your Dyna.
Let's start with that, as I want to see what there to work with right now.
Forget the 5 grand budget. You will find more money if you really want this....

Shorter handlebars will go on before I go to the track, as well as a seat with more lower back support. Also I will be ditching the spokes.

The 5 grand is for extended swingarm, ceramic bearings, air shifter, etc...
Mutant Motors 124"
161/148 STD, 158/145 SAE