Author Topic: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower  (Read 2884 times)

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Offline SB107

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2019, 08:34:45 AM »
Cam gears is just a maintenance thing so you don't have to change shoes . All roller rockers do is allow you to use a higher lift cam . They don't add any HP .

Cam gears unlock a small bit of horsepower. The drag of the spring loaded tensioners is measurable when turned by hand compared to gears. Not a lot, but it is quite obvious when side by side.
Gear drives also eliminate the small timing changes that can occur from the tensioners deflecting. Not enough to worry about for a street bike, but if going for every bit of power on the track, it can matter.


Thanks for this info!

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2019, 09:08:20 AM »
Cam gears is just a maintenance thing so you don't have to change shoes . All roller rockers do is allow you to use a higher lift cam . They don't add any HP .

Cam gears unlock a small bit of horsepower. The drag of the spring loaded tensioners is measurable when turned by hand compared to gears. Not a lot, but it is quite obvious when side by side.
Gear drives also eliminate the small timing changes that can occur from the tensioners deflecting. Not enough to worry about for a street bike, but if going for every bit of power on the track, it can matter.

Parisitcal drag -rollers allow the cam to overcome the springs a bit more EZ and stops the side shuffle against the guides.
So if we are looking for the ounces instead of the clumps rollers will help in a couple of places.

I HATE NASCAR, but they have rolled back oil P. just save Hp for the rear wheels.
They coat everything now with magic this and ceramic that.
So it is the little things that add up
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Online Hossamania

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2019, 09:27:36 AM »
Don't discount the effect of drag. No mirrors, turn signals, tighten up the cables and wiring harness to the bars etc. Get rid of the highway pegs if present. Go with rearset foot controls if you're really going for it. In Nascar at the super speedways, anything that sees wind gets contoured, even any bolts or nuts that hang below the car get shaved at the leading edge to make them "pointy" rather than blunt. One of those Sons of Anarchy bubble fairings probably help direct wind around the front end.
Extreme? Hell yes, but on a track every little bit counts.
Also, struts rather than shocks, tie down the front end a bit. This at the track, not so much for the street.
No government, however well intentioned, can avoid becoming a tyranny.

Offline build it

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2019, 08:20:09 AM »
The coatings used in NASCAR are anything but glamorous or exclusive at the top level.

You would achieve more from proper machining. Not the, run it so every thing seats properly approach so common in this world. Rings for example, should be ready to rock on first fire up; this assumes a proper tune of course.
Get the principles down first, they’ll never change.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2019, 01:21:47 PM »
Rings and full power at first fire up?
Engine coatings no good?

You will have to explain your sources for this as Swains will tell you they do Nasty car.
High-end piston rings like Diamond at a a 1000 bucks a set al have procedures.
Ron at Axtell has his own thermal break-in procedure.
I am not here for an argument and have been around the block for sure and would like your slant on things.
I have had many pistons coated, moly and other tricks on different kinds of engines and can explain some good results.
This last engine we have not dynoed  yet, but with ceramics and twin-plug I am hoping to trespass some norms.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-0612-engine-coatings/

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/polymer-coatings-engine-bearings-science-behind/
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Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline build it

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2019, 02:48:50 PM »
Rings and full power at first fire up?
Engine coatings no good?

You will have to explain your sources for this as Swains will tell you they do Nasty car.
High-end piston rings like Diamond at a a 1000 bucks a set al have procedures.
Ron at Axtell has his own thermal break-in procedure.
I am not here for an argument and have been around the block for sure and would like your slant on things.
I have had many pistons coated, moly and other tricks on different kinds of engines and can explain some good results.
This last engine we have not dynoed  yet, but with ceramics and twin-plug I am hoping to trespass some norms.

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-0612-engine-coatings/

https://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/polymer-coatings-engine-bearings-science-behind/

I didn’t say coatings weren’t any good, but, I will say in a laboratory setting coatings won’t change the world (I won’t qualify that statement with numbers, which I have). I know for a fact why some particular items get coated and the answer provokes nothing less than shock and awe.

In the same lab setting, “break in” is done in under 5 minutes, then it’s wfo.

For example, one I’m willing to discuss with you, but that I learned as a student and later implemented, there is power in a flatter crosshatch. How flat, do you want to know? Are you going to call me a liar?
Get the principles down first, they’ll never change.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2019, 06:26:52 PM »
Every type of ring (and material)  of course needs a requirement and the RA and hatch measured on the wall.
Speaking of Harley I  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]   only have 10 lbs direct drag piston in cylinder B4 installation  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  
This is measured on an accurate scale several times with repeatable results .
Everyone says it would be an oil blower.
Nope.
last time I was at 13 pounds so I thought I would set it lighter .
At the crank, they measure less than 5 pounds drag
Speaking of Harley I  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]   only have 10 lbs direct drag piston in cylinder B4 installation
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Offline thumper 823

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2019, 12:19:21 AM »
The pic above ^
Supposed to say-
 Each of these pistons has a drag of 10 pounds.!
Only Five at the crank when rotated which is almost nothing compared to cheap crap.
If looking for hidden horsepower this is the cat's arse!
Why? - because regular rings will net you over 30 pounds of drag and a LOT more.!
What that means is every stroke is eating up power moving the extra 30 pounds of parasitical drag.
 Turning it into heat rather than get up and go.
Using quality rings the drag can be adjusted by bending the tabs on the inner oil ring spacer.
Keep in mind the spacer can be installed upside dwn..most people don't know that and it is not a good thing.
Finding extra power is the devil in the details trick.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline IronButt70

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2019, 06:25:56 AM »
The pic above ^
Supposed to say-
 Each of these pistons has a drag of 10 pounds.!
Only Five at the crank when rotated which is almost nothing compared to cheap crap.
If looking for hidden horsepower this is the cat's arse!
Why? - because regular rings will net you over 30 pounds of drag and a LOT more.!
What that means is every stroke is eating up power moving the extra 30 pounds of parasitical drag.
 Turning it into heat rather than get up and go.
Using quality rings the drag can be adjusted by bending the tabs on the inner oil ring spacer.
Keep in mind the spacer can be installed upside dwn..most people don't know that and it is not a good thing.
Finding extra power is the devil in the details trick.
When I raced 2 cycle outboards we would use moly rings to reduce drag. Made a big difference. Would it make a difference for a say a TC and are they even available?
Rollin down lifes hiway never looking back cuz something might be gaining on me

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2019, 06:52:22 AM »
There are all kinds of rings available once you call a Piston Ring maker and leave the generic crap alone.
Anyone that installs off the shelf 30 to 45 pound ring drag stuff is NUTZ!
The Caveat is you have to have all the information so they can help you.
Size is no problem-
You have to be brutally honest with yourself as to the use of the engine.
The information is - type of use, what mods done or to be done, cylinder  wall material and a PROPER hone, not the
caveman with a drill and stones!
The shop doing it needs to have the instrument to read the finish, not just micrometers.
As I stated earlier, different rings demand different break-in procedures, the old rules no longer apply.
Lots of builders have gone to the short short runs like 15 seconds and add to it after cool dwn with fans to stop micro-welding.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Phu Cat

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #60 on: December 01, 2019, 09:41:27 AM »
One thing I've learned just from reading about guys that start hot-rod projects is to NOT throw random parts together and then expect great HP gains.  Always use parts that have demonstrated their ability to work with the rest of the parts you choose to use.

PC
Too much horsepower is almost enough.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2019, 01:24:30 AM »
  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  And you are exactly correct.
I always tell people, " put the bottom line / goal on the paper then fill in the blanks above "

As far as coatings here is what swains did for me last time.
They did combustion chambers, piston tops,   valves, ports/ in ceramic, and skirts in some kind of super slippery magic.


   [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 01:29:47 AM by thumper 823 »
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
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Offline IronButt70

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #62 on: December 02, 2019, 06:43:20 AM »
 [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  And you are exactly correct.
I always tell people, " put the bottom line / goal on the paper then fill in the blanks above "

As far as coatings here is what swains did for me last time.
They did combustion chambers, piston tops,   valves, ports/ in ceramic, and skirts in some kind of super slippery magic.


   [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
What kind of difference did all those coatings make? Just curious.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 12:10:50 PM by IronButt70 »
Rollin down lifes hiway never looking back cuz something might be gaining on me

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2019, 02:01:46 PM »
I could not answer that without lying , as I would have to assemble it without coatings and dyno it,  and then run it all coated.
But I am sure if that is the only thing you are doing for performance it is not worth it.
If one runs correct low drag rings ,  coatings and all the little details the percentage will rise.
If you call Swains I am sure they can give you a ballpark.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline 1workinman

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2019, 05:45:12 PM »
What kind of budget are we talking about?
There was a no replacement for displacement. Except maybe the three power adders listed above.

5k is about where I would like to draw the line this time around.

5K? more of a starting point! :hyst:

I already will have 15k+ into the motor and drivetrain.
That part is easy to believe trust me

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #65 on: December 02, 2019, 07:08:12 PM »
What kind of budget are we talking about?
There was a no replacement for displacement. Except maybe the three power adders listed above.

5k is about where I would like to draw the line this time around.

5K? more of a starting point! :hyst:

I already will have 15k+ into the motor and drivetrain.
That part is easy to believe trust me

As many of us have said and pointed out- fill in the bottom line as the final goal of what the engine will do, or be.
2, -Now go back up the page and fill in the blanks.
For many many folks a bigger bore kit , or a larger stroke  (both)  is the utopia the all-out engine performance.
For others that is just a starting point, a beginning.
So for monies spent there is no standard amount.
 If you want performance and don't know how to get it now you are stuck being a psychiatrist sorting the BS from real.
There is a lot of BS sold in the Harley world that will add supposed power.
For instance, every time I see someone with that vacuum flapper valve air filters I laugh my arse off.  Yet it is sad at the same time that someone got sucked (argh argh)   into paying so much for such a POS add on.
Be careful of supposed bolt on add power parts...
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.

Offline Barrett

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #66 on: December 03, 2019, 10:54:18 AM »
Does the piston top coating cover the stamped labels? I'm wondering if they need to be marked on the bottom.

Offline thumper 823

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Re: Unlocking Hidden Horsepower
« Reply #67 on: December 03, 2019, 11:05:14 AM »
  [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]  These pistons were custom shaped -If you want an area left undone just tell them.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 11:09:35 AM by thumper 823 »
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Amateur engineering with bad math.