Author Topic: Pretty sure I have a bad lifter - quick bleed down- how to diagnose which one?  (Read 746 times)

BIG RON and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Shadowbennie

  • Member
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: us
Looking for some input - I'm pretty sure I have a lifter that has a problem with excessive bleed off. Put Woods alpha directional lifters in when I put in the CR-570-2 in my 2015 RGS last winter. The year started off fine and the motor was quiet, well, other than normal valvetrain noises causes by a .570 lift cam, but as the year progressed, I noticed that I was getting more and more clatter at startup after sitting overnight, and it would even clatter if I had ridden it for a while to get it up to operating temps and let it rest for no more than 20-30 minutes. Once I run it for a bit, the clatter decreases, as the lifter pumps up, but I almost feel as if it's not completely pumping up either as the motor seems to be noisier than when I first put everything together.

So, I'm planning on pulling the pushrod covers and double check my lash adjustment, but is there any way to determine which lifter might be bleeding down to cause the clatter?

Or, am I better off just springing for a new set from WFO Larry and be done with the Woods lifters? For $135 for a set of 4 from WFO, it's a pretty inexpensive swap.

Thoughts?


Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7005
  • Country: ca
Stethoscope, peice of hose or long screwdriver to the ear and put it to each lifter at the bottom and top.  You may have to shut it off to bleed down a few times.
KD

Offline mike jesse

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1097
  • Country: us
If it were mine, I'd replace them all.

Good call on the lifters from Larry.

Offline Hossamania

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18745
  • Country: us
  • Mostly confused
If it were mine, I'd replace them all.

Good call on the lifters from Larry.

That's where I'd be doing too. Replace them as a set and be done with it.
No government, however well intentioned, can avoid becoming a tyranny.

Offline Hossamania

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18745
  • Country: us
  • Mostly confused
A question for the smarter ones here, would it be possible to tell which lifter is bleeding down by checking the pushrods cold? Would it bleed down enough for one to be noticeably loose? Maybe check warm, then check cold for any difference. Or do they not really loosen up that noticeably?
No government, however well intentioned, can avoid becoming a tyranny.

Online Ohio HD

  • OH CRAP!
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21948
  • Country: us
  • Mark, 06/02: There's no cryin' in modifyin'
If you determine it is a lifter, use what ever brand and install limiters in them.
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline TXCHOP

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1764
  • Country: 00
    • Dan's MC Shop
am I better off just springing for a new set from WFO Larry and be done with the Woods lifters? For $135 for a set of 4 from WFO, it's a pretty inexpensive swap.


This!

Offline Admiral Akbar

  • Past Poster
  • Full Member
  • Posts: 24137
  • Country: tr
  • Internet Expert
If it's rattling more do to temps going down, use lighter oil.   Eh, Larry?  :D
I guess the dead chicken thing don't work anymore.

Offline Screamin beagle

  • Member
  • Posts: 17
  • Country: us
So you buy shoes one at a time? Lol...remove  any doubt or guesswork and replace them all. It's a relatively cheap fix in the world of harley

Offline rageglide

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 3546
  • Country: us
Do like KD suggested or a screw driver with handle against your ear and tip against the head.  Not going to be 100% certain as to which lifter, but will isolate to 50% of them... Lifters are easily disassembled and cleaned.  But, some lifters are just crap out of the box (HD C's).  You have check balls or check disks, also the retainer can get dislodged. 

Larry's lifters are very reasonable option for the money, worth giving them a try.  You can then evaluate yours and decide if it's just one with issues or many.  Possibly get some warranty love from Woods if they are defective and you find they are clean.   IMO CR-570 is not extreme.  Harley -C lifters will clatter at start up with stock lift, -B's (NOS if you can find) can take a lot of abuse and would work fine with your cam.

Are the temps where you live getting really low?

Offline FSG

  • PhD in Malt Based Liquids
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 18103
  • Country: au
  • BrisVegas
someone stuffed a sock in my Gob but .........

Mike   :up:

Hoss   :up:


Offline tc1550

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 307
I have been down this road used bobs lifters many times some quiet some faulty/noisy not bashing bobs stuff just don't care for his lifters .
use larrys stuff or tried and true s&s lifters standard or premium change them all .

Offline Shadowbennie

  • Member
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: us
If you determine it is a lifter, use what ever brand and install limiters in them.

Ohio, what would be the primary advantage of using limiters?

Offline Shadowbennie

  • Member
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: us
So you buy shoes one at a time? Lol...remove  any doubt or guesswork and replace them all. It's a relatively cheap fix in the world of harley

In this instance, when I called Fuel Moto about having this failing/bleeding lifter, they said they would only replace the one that is failing, so that's really the only reason why I'm considering trying to pinpoint which one.

Disappointing that I've only had these lifter in for a season and that after 13K, one of 'em is going bad....I'm definitely leaning toward swapping them all and being done with it though.

Offline Shadowbennie

  • Member
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: us
Do like KD suggested or a screw driver with handle against your ear and tip against the head.  Not going to be 100% certain as to which lifter, but will isolate to 50% of them... Lifters are easily disassembled and cleaned.  But, some lifters are just crap out of the box (HD C's).  You have check balls or check disks, also the retainer can get dislodged. 

Larry's lifters are very reasonable option for the money, worth giving them a try.  You can then evaluate yours and decide if it's just one with issues or many.  Possibly get some warranty love from Woods if they are defective and you find they are clean.   IMO CR-570 is not extreme.  Harley -C lifters will clatter at start up with stock lift, -B's (NOS if you can find) can take a lot of abuse and would work fine with your cam.

Are the temps where you live getting really low?

I talked about this option with a fellow motorhead here at work, buying the new lifters and pulling the Woods lifters and tearing them apart and inspecting them, maybe Fuel Moto will show some warranty love, but their initial response was they would only replace the 1 bad lifter, sooo...guess I might just have to count it as a loss.

As for temps, the clattering was happening even when the ambient temp and engine temp were hot, so not ambient temp related - plus, even the crappy stock 'C' lifters that were in there before I did the cam swap weren't affected by ambient temps all that much - maybe a little rattle for a few seconds at startup on cold mornings, but only if it sat for a few days.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 05:57:16 AM by Shadowbennie »

Online Ohio HD

  • OH CRAP!
  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21948
  • Country: us
  • Mark, 06/02: There's no cryin' in modifyin'
If you determine it is a lifter, use what ever brand and install limiters in them.

Ohio, what would be the primary advantage of using limiters?

They can't bleed down any more than the gap you set them at. Using 32 TPI push rods, 1/2 turn, the most the lifter can bleed is 0.016" with the motor cold.

I run them in my 124", use a stock cheap battery, stock battery cables, and a 1.4kw starter. It turns over no matter how cold out or how hot the motor is. And no valve noise.
For the best deal on bike parts, call Calif Phil
     www.harleypartscheap.com

Offline rbabos

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 13851
  • Country: ca
A question for the smarter ones here, would it be possible to tell which lifter is bleeding down by checking the pushrods cold? Would it bleed down enough for one to be noticeably loose? Maybe check warm, then check cold for any difference. Or do they not really loosen up that noticeably?
What I use to do when scrounging for the best lifer in aircraft on a limit rebuild,  is take the lifter and clean all oil out of it in the bore and check valve and remove the spring also. Install piston and push down. A good lifter will rebound after a few seconds even just having the air compressed. If you have four and check each the same, it will be obvious which one is pooched. Oil in the lifter just masks most issues of leakdown. If it rebounds with air after say 3 seconds it will be good . That 3 seconds is a guess but out of the 4, one will have a higher rebound time frame to base the rest off of.
Ron

Offline Shadowbennie

  • Member
  • Posts: 46
  • Country: us
If you determine it is a lifter, use what ever brand and install limiters in them.

Ohio, what would be the primary advantage of using limiters?

They can't bleed down any more than the gap you set them at. Using 32 TPI push rods, 1/2 turn, the most the lifter can bleed is 0.016" with the motor cold.

I run them in my 124", use a stock cheap battery, stock battery cables, and a 1.4kw starter. It turns over no matter how cold out or how hot the motor is. And no valve noise.

Ah - well, is there any harm just sticking with good 'ol standard travel lifters, assuming they don't bleed down excessively? I think I understand the basic mechanical advantage overall, but how many guys run limiters here vs. standard plunger travel? I guess I go back to when I had the stock lifters that were in there, they never rattled like this.....

Offline mike jesse

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1097
  • Country: us
For a mild build like yours, I'd install a set of the STD. 2313's and ride it.

Offline rageglide

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 3546
  • Country: us
If the C's handled this cam better, then obviously there's a problem with the Woods lifters.

I agree a good basic lifter should be fine.  But, a limiter has some benefits beyond the hi-po use cases.  The lifters that leak down equate to a shorter duration than designed.   In engines without compression releases you avoid the hot start starter stall.  But to the other comments, the lack of bleed down also means less of the rattle.

In the case of a bad lifter you can usually determine it's a problem when you manually attempt to compress the plunger, it will feel spongy.   But a slow leaker will be easier to track down using the method Ron suggested or with a small amount of light solvent.

I'm an S&S lifter w/limiter guy.  Worth the money.   It sounds like Larry's lifters are on par at a lower price point, worth a shot.

Offline kd

  • Site Supporter
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7005
  • Country: ca
I use S&S w/ limiters.  Now with the rumour out there that the S&S premiums are a different manufacturer now, I am wary of buying them.  I am coming up on the 30,000 mile recommended change cycle with my spring weight and wish I would have bought them for on the shelf.  It's all quiet about Larry's lifters and they seem to be top performers.  What to do???   :nix:
KD

Offline rageglide

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 3546
  • Country: us
I use S&S w/ limiters.  Now with the rumour out there that the S&S premiums are a different manufacturer now, I am wary of buying them.  I am coming up on the 30,000 mile recommended change cycle with my spring weight and wish I would have bought them for on the shelf.  It's all quiet about Larry's lifters and they seem to be top performers.  What to do???   :nix:

 :dgust:

Makes me happy I've got an older set of premiums (new) on the shelf.   Maybe Larry is feeding off the S&S source...  But only Larry knows

Offline wfolarry

  • Premium Vendor
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2751
  • Country: us
  • BREATHE DEEP
    • Larry's Motorcycle & Machine Inc.
S&S lifters are a good product. The problem is Delphi has been on strike for a while now. So there are no lifters available to anybody. This means they had to find another source for their lifters hence the different part #. Even if the strike ended tomorrow it would probably take a while to get caught up. Down the road I believe your favorite Delphi lifter will be available again. I'm sure the one that's replacing it is fine. Their quality control is still tight.

I was at the warehouse last week & everybody was calling to fill the void left by the strike. They shipped 48,000 lifters that week. I think they were a little surprised at how big the market for those Chevy lifters was.
The Hylift Johnson 2313SE is the most popular lifter they sell for HD's. Tight tolerances & pin oiling are the reason. Being made in Michigan means a lot as well. I sell more of these than any other.