120" & 662-3 cams

[rking1550]

Had a race buddy test the Wood "King" carb, and it ain't no King vs. the "real" King...for well over 50 years now-
He pulled it off the bike and never looked back.
Heads (Huge part of recipe), manifold and carb are all one unit.....build and plan as such for 150 plus.
I made 177/153 at 12:5 on my old 124", but it had big dollar Baisley heads.
Happy to post sheet if needed.

What carb did he go to ?

[kd]

PW will for sure know the carb stuff.  There are lots of good excellent head guys that are site supporters here on the site so I felt bad going to Dan Baisley and as Paul says ultimately paid for the "big dollar heads". I mostly did it because when I was shopping for a head porter I of course shared my chosen recipe with him looking for confirmation or suggestions and he already had used it.  In a 120" he said that done properly it was a +150 and better streetable / touring build at 11.3.  That's much better than most decent 124" engines with less cubic inches and as it turned out, about where I ended up. 

It sounds to me like the members with background and experience that are contributing to your thread are singing out of the same hymn book.  You may already have the solution on your shelf.   "Attention to intake and heads".  You were planning on freshening the heads so slight mods from what you have now (if required) may not break the bank.  I'd say it's worth looking at a little harder and using what you have may cost less than you think.

[pwmorris]

Had a race buddy test the Wood "King" carb, and it ain't no King vs. the "real" King...for well over 50 years now-
He pulled it off the bike and never looked back.
Heads (Huge part of recipe), manifold and carb are all one unit.....build and plan as such for 150 plus.
I made 177/153 at 12:5 on my old 124", but it had big dollar Baisley heads.
Happy to post sheet if needed.

What carb did he go to ?

Modified G. All the good stuff, but as said, the correct carb must match perfectly with the manifold and the heads. Great heads, stock carb? Loser. Big dollar prepped carb and stock Harley heads? Also a loser. My current 126" at 11:5 is running two G's cause I want the volume but I also want the responsiveness G's give you over a single D, which is a monster WFO, but pretty much sucks for the street. However I have killer heads and everything else to match....see where I'm going with this?

[1workinman]

Had a race buddy test the Wood "King" carb, and it ain't no King vs. the "real" King...for well over 50 years now-
He pulled it off the bike and never looked back.
Heads (Huge part of recipe), manifold and carb are all one unit.....build and plan as such for 150 plus.
I made 177/153 at 12:5 on my old 124", but it had big dollar Baisley heads.
Happy to post sheet if needed.

You guys know a lot more than me but my experience has always showed me that cylinders heads are a place to spend money on . Open up check book

[pwmorris]

Had a race buddy test the Wood "King" carb, and it ain't no King vs. the "real" King...for well over 50 years now-
He pulled it off the bike and never looked back.
Heads (Huge part of recipe), manifold and carb are all one unit.....build and plan as such for 150 plus.
I made 177/153 at 12:5 on my old 124", but it had big dollar Baisley heads.
Happy to post sheet if needed.

You guys know a lot more than me but my experience has always showed me that cylinders heads are a place to spend money on . Open up check book

Yup-
Then, chill, relax and let the pros do what pros do, and don't bug them constantly with "ideas" you heard on internet tech sites...lol....

[rking1550]

Thanks for all the info guys. Between the advise here and my original thoughts , I think it'll be good.
Heads back to TR. He last had them 5 years ago.

Keep the compression around 12 ~

I'll use the G intake.  ( I was thinking about a carb change too, mostly because of parts available for the cv 51 are drying up, but was going to save that question for a different thread. )

I'll keep my exhaust,  for now anyway, it's a older S&S sidewinder 2 into 1, maybe not the best but it seems to be ok.

It'll  be spring by the time it's done. I'll try to remember to post the dyno sheet when it's done.

[rking1550]

Just dug out the intake. It has numbers on it  2577. Does anyone know what they mean ?

[rking1550]

Pics

[Don D]

Match it to the heads and move on, the screaming eagle intake was nowhere near as good as your piece.

[1workinman]

That certainly is a bottleneck.  Tman can supply you with an S&S intake with the large spigot. It is an upgrade for sure. When using the 640 you can raise the CR up to 12:1.

I have giving this some thought and I was going to ask in Texas heat or say up to 95 deg any thing more and I just pass and no in town ridding or at least large town stop; and go traffic . Two up ridding but no lugging wards cooling fans oil temps to say 250 on the gauge , and 93 or some times 91 fuel and tuned proper with a primary gearing that has a 49 tooth basket I think .  So I was wondering how much compression or ratio would you recommend thanks for your time 

[aharp]

I went down this road with the CV51 back in the day on my 124 with 662-2. Still have the -3 in a box cause I didnt care for the bottom end torque loss and the very top end gain was not worth it to me. I bought and tried an S&S SA intake similar to the one pictured above and did the back to back on it. Was quite surprised to find zero gain in power vs the SE intake that came with the carb. I ended up going fuel injected and to a 62mm throttle body. Went from 137/146 to 143/152 SAE.

[rking1550]

I went down this road with the CV51 back in the day on my 124 with 662-2. Still have the -3 in a box cause I didnt care for the bottom end torque loss and the very top end gain was not worth it to me. I bought and tried an S&S SA intake similar to the one pictured above and did the back to back on it. Was quite surprised to find zero gain in power vs the SE intake that came with the carb. I ended up going fuel injected and to a 62mm throttle body. Went from 137/146 to 143/152 SAE.

What compression were you running when you tried the -3's ?  And did you try a G carb instead of the cv51 ?

[Don D]

And a G has a 52mm throat? So the manifold is just down the line. It is in the way, a constraint or not. If the rest of the parts are working right this is too small to hit 150hp and becomes the constraint whether this is EFI or a Carb motor.

[aharp]

What compression were you running when you tried the -3's ?  And did you try a G carb instead of the cv51 ?

It was around 11.75. Cranked at 218 with the -2 and a little over 200 with the -3. Never did try another carb as I wanted to go FI anyway.

[rking1550]

And a G has a 52mm throat? So the manifold is just down the line. It is in the way, a constraint or not. If the rest of the parts are working right this is too small to hit 150hp and becomes the constraint whether this is EFI or a Carb motor.

Not sure I'm understanding this correctly. if I am your saying  a SE or S&S manifold and the 2 carbs mentioned cv51 & G. Are all too small to support  150 hp ? And I should look into some kind of larger EFI if I really want 150hp or more ?

[Don D]

There will always be a constraint to horsepower goals with an IC engine, words of Mike Feight. If the carburetor throat size is not capable of passing the air then there is the issue. A stock G is not that much different in airflow compared to the CV51, in fact the 51 outflows it. See attached flow study, special thanks to Bruce Woltz. So manifold is next down the line, the larger S&S manifold is of no advantage if the carb is the constraint. In other words the cam may help but is not the real elephant in the room. There are others I would choose VS the 662-3 but still this is going to just provide a small change until you get it to breath. This could include the heads which I have no clue where they are at.

[rking1550]

There will always be a constraint to horsepower goals with an IC engine, words of Mike Feight. If the carburetor throat size is not capable of passing the air then there is the issue. A stock G is not that much different in airflow compared to the CV51, in fact the 51 outflows it. See attached flow study, special thanks to Bruce Woltz. So manifold is next down the line, the larger S&S manifold is of no advantage if the carb is the constraint. In other words the cam may help but is not the real elephant in the room. There are others I would choose VS the 662-3 but still this is going to just provide a small change until you get it to breath. This could include the heads which I have no clue where they are at.

Gotcha. and thank you for the explanation.
Heads are T-man thumper heads, from about 5 years ago. Part of the plan is to talk to TR, send him the heads for a good going thru and any improvements he suggests. I'm hoping that takes the heads out of the mix. That should leave carb/intake , then the next down the list would be the exhaust. The exhaust I'm using has made over 140hp, don't know if it's up to the task of 150 tho.

[rking1550]

I talked with TR  the other day,  he actually recommended I dont use the -3, even raising the compression. He likes the cam in bigger motors, 124, 131. He thought I'd be going backward over what I have now, even tho it will make more top end hp, it would be lazy down low , probably til around 4500 ~  .
His recommendation was a couple different things, one maybe the 680ps cam, two adding a little compression to the -2 (I'm at 11.3 and don't want to add to the -2 ) three if I really wanted to try the -3 use a 20 degree large dome piston to raise the compression,  that way if I dont like the -3, I could have the dome milled to lower the compression and go to a different cam.
So right now I don't think I'll be doing anything, not sure just a cam swap to the 680 would be worth the financial investment for the return in gains I would see.
The only thing I'll probably do is swap the intake, that should only cost me some of my time, and I work cheap. lol.

[Don D]

I have been a fan of the SE266 at 12:1 and it is very streetable plus capable of 150hp all the rest of the parts cooperating at 120". Harleys pistons and cams.

[rking1550]

I have been a fan of the SE266 at 12:1 and it is very streetable plus capable of 150hp all the rest of the parts cooperating at 120". Harleys pistons and cams.

I would need something available in gear drive.

[No Cents]

  an option to the 662-3 cams that can be had in gear drive.
Both cams love the compression shot to them.

[attach=0,msg1328585]

[rking1550]

  an option to the 662-3 cams that can be had in gear drive.
Both cams love the compression shot to them.

[attach=0,msg1328585]

But Ray won't that put me in the same place with being lazy/soft down low ?
How do you like those 630i @ 11.3 ? Just thinking out loud here. My bike runs very good right now. Might not be worth chasing numbers like 150 hp.  Could be too much of a low end sacrifice....

[No Cents]

  I took it as you wanted a top end zinger with a set of cams that have a later closing when you said you were considering the 662-3's. When you said you needed gear driven cams I thought the 675's could be a candidate for you. The -3's are not going to be super strong off the bottom, but they will really come on strong in the mid range and top end. The S&S 675's are going to be very similar with their performance. Both are big top end cams that like being in the upper rpm band.
  Myself personally...I don't even look at other cams after I put the 630i's in my bike. They delivered everything I wanted with great low end power, and they pull like a freight train all the way up thru the rpm's...and they are not overly noisy cams. I'm very happy with them. My engine is sat at just a touch over 11.00:1. I think the #'s actually came out to be 11.18:1 according to the Big Boyz calculator. I think 11.3 would be right in the 630i's wheel house.

[kd]

Back at the beginning of the thread it became more obvious the quest was for 150 HP but no loss to the bottom end for the heavy touring platform bike.  IMO the cams you have will do it but you (as said by a few here) will have to rethink the intake support to get there.  You are falling short there and no wonder cam of the year will get you there without doing something about it.

No Cents has settled on a good fit with the 630i's but is moving big air with heads and intake to get er done.  My 120 is a similar situation but I am using big dollar heads and a 62 / 64 HPI throttle body (said to perform like a S&S 66 mm Throttle Hog), 6.3 injectors and a great Burns pipe. 

I'll say this, .... reread the suggestions and see if you can come up with something that fits that.  Tom Reiser has told you the -3's will not make you happy and after discussing it with you he should know.   I think you can reach your goals but it's not in the cams unless you can support them by moving the air you need to do it.

[rking1550]

Yes, I'm going to use the S&S intake I have, my heads are T-man thumper series with 1.80 intake ports, I believe the G is the same. TR said he used to cut the s&s D manifold for the cv carb. I'm hoping the g I have will be enough.
I was thinking the -3 with adding compression would be a good fit, TR said the compression will help. But probably not be enough to keep the hot rod feel. So for now that's off the table.
Lots of good advice and options from the people here. Thank you all.