Author Topic: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.  (Read 1376 times)

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Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2020, 06:34:49 AM »
  Wheres your squish set at??? are you at 0 deck hieght?? does the motor tick on decell also?  Man your running pretty tight clearance .025 head gasket. if your zero deck that piston is probally touching as it rocks off the comp stroke cycle, seen it a few times on builds, i believe you have pretty much eliminate lifter noise,   Piston too head contact or valve to piston,  but im leaning piston to head contact. its a subtle tick cold an as motor warms it gets noisier.People would think it would sound more like a knock, Not if its just barely touching. tick. it will drive ya nuts, Chasing lifter noise.Good Luck.

Squish was set to .025" with zero decked pistons and .025 head gasket. I borescoped the cylinders after a couple thousand miles and thought I could see a light contact area near the decompression valve.
I took the heads off and slightly relieved the suspect area and reinstalled the heads with .045 head gaskets.
The ticking remained exactly the same.

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2020, 06:42:39 AM »
Pushrods hitting the tubes?

I never saw any marks when I looked them over.
I bought a mechanics stethoscope and will give that a try when I get back home in the spring.
It's a 2 person job, it's difficult to hold the throttle exactly where the problem rpm's are.

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2020, 06:53:41 AM »
You mentioned that the heads were done and the valves were changed. Valve Protrusion change (valve installed height) will affect push rod length requirement. :oops:
John

I don't get where the "oops" was? Yes, valve protrusion will affect lifter plunger depth, as will the heads and barrels being decked. I didn't have anything to actually measure the plunger depth, but I'm pretty confident by visually checking it was no less than .120" and nowhere near the .200" that bottoms the plunger

I'm not sure that throwing a $200 set of adjustable pushrods in and setting them to the magical number of .140"
is going to get rid of any noise.

Neither will replacing the lifters with the current lifter of the month.
Or replacing the oil with somebody"s cure all formula.

I find the fact that the bike runs perfectly quiet cold, and when warm it runs quiet at some rpm's but noisy at others a bit odd.
The noise is neither throttle or load sensitive, its always there at certain rpms.
It's maybe half as bad with the 543's as it was with the 54's, but happens at different rpm's.
The oops means, did you check or know what the installed height of all 4 valves are. In today's age "close enough" don't cut it.  Carry on. :banghead:

I seriously doubt that Don Dorfman would send out a finished product that was not "ready to go", he knew every detail of what I was building.
His question sheet about build details is very comprehensive.
I have the spec sheets at home with all the details regarding valve protrusion and installed height, just don't recall the details at this time and won't be home for 2 months.

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2020, 06:58:19 AM »
Have you talked to Don at HDSP ? He maybe able to shed some light on the ticking.

Not yet.
I want to stethoscope it to try and narrow down the possibilities before I bother him.
At this point I can only hear the noise when I riding the bike, its pretty hard to hold the throttle at the perfect rpm when in neutral and crouched down beside the bike. (gonna need a helper with a steady hand)

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2020, 07:03:43 AM »
Good luck, hope it's something simple. Follow up on your findings.
I prefer an interesting vice to a boring virtue.

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2020, 07:14:39 AM »
At least with adjustables you'll know what the preload is, which at this point you are only guessing.  If you really want a solid pushrod, size them with a spare adjustable then have customs built.

If these are oem lifters then all bets are off, imo.  The loose tolerances make them spongy.

Have you ever tried running without an air cleaner?  Some cams are more prone to rattling the throttle plate which in turn rattles the gears in the throttle body.  Cams like Andrews 57h rattle it hard enough to make a clucking sound which doesn't sound like what you are dealing with.  The noise occurs in the RPM range you're talking about.

The 543's with oem lifters was half as loud as the 54's with hylifts, so go figure???
I will say, that the the hylifts are pressure fed from the side and purge any air pretty quickly.
The OEM lifters get oiled from the top and take a really long time to purge. (maybe 5 miles)
Despite the general consensus that OEM are crap, when I had both sets apart, the OEM seemed to be closer and more consistent clearances than the Hylifts.

As for intake noise. The noise is there even with the throttle closed and coasting downhill, so unless I'm wrong, I don't think its intake noise.

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2020, 07:23:50 AM »
Good luck, hope it's something simple. Follow up on your findings.

Thank you!
I'll scope it when I get back in the spring. Measure my lifter preload and report to all.
Check HDSP's valve protrusion and installed height on the spec sheet he provided and report that as well.

My wife is a really good sport when it comes to helping me in the garage (mechanics Daughter).
I'm just not sure she can hold the throttle at exactly 2200 rpm so I can check things with the stethoscope.
I might have to wait until my buddy gets back a month later.

Now, if I wanted to shop for adjustable's, which would be the one's to look for?
Can I use the stock pushrod tubes that came on my 2016?  (my other bikes had adjustables already installed)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2020, 07:28:26 AM by Roadflyer »

Offline koko3052

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2020, 07:50:37 AM »
Smith Bros. is the only place I go for any pushrods!

Offline kd

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2020, 08:39:58 AM »
 :agree:  Look at the tapered offerings and consider calling them to confirm your choice.  I can't remember the fella by name but one of the employees is a Harley expert and was responsible for the development of the selection you will be looking at.  Ask for him.  As far as the tubes, many of us bore the tops to 5/8" when we have them off anyway.   The crimp effectively closes in the inside diameter and the OEM sizing is so borderline (especially with higher than OEM lift cams) that it is worth the effort (which is minimal).  Search the site and you will see pics of the process.

Here's one I found quickly ....

  https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,62558.msg668937.html#msg668937
KD

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2020, 10:05:20 AM »
You would be best served to ask me directly. I am happy to help and do stand behind my products sold and services. This is done on the phone, old school I know. I dont have time for long emails. I don't ever recommend exact fit pushrods and after the head stack is altered and end users don't usually check the correct size needed with adjustables. That is the way to spec. fixed length pushrods.

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2020, 10:24:05 AM »
You would be best served to ask me directly. I am happy to help and do stand behind my products sold and services. This is done on the phone, old school I know. I dont have time for long emails. I don't ever recommend exact fit pushrods and after the head stack is altered and end users don't usually check the correct size needed with adjustables. That is the way to spec. fixed length pushrods.

I've never thought the problem was your product and openly supported your procedures.
But while your here, Does your street port Pro package retain stock valve train geometry or is it altered depending on valve lift intended? (mine was Andrews 54's).

Offline HD Street Performance

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2020, 12:10:37 PM »
The protrusion was slightly increased over stock to compensate for the higher lift. The head package supports up to .6 lift as stated on my site. In my opinion. 025 is too close on the squish but you say it is not hitting? Ok. I shoot for .030+ not -

Offline rageglide

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2020, 02:38:24 PM »
The 543's with oem lifters was half as loud as the 54's with hylifts, so go figure???
I will say, that the the hylifts are pressure fed from the side and purge any air pretty quickly.
The OEM lifters get oiled from the top and take a really long time to purge. (maybe 5 miles)
Despite the general consensus that OEM are crap, when I had both sets apart, the OEM seemed to be closer and more consistent clearances than the Hylifts.

As for intake noise. The noise is there even with the throttle closed and coasting downhill, so unless I'm wrong, I don't think its intake noise.

All hydraulic lifters are oiled from the side.  Maybe you mean the hylifts oil the roller with a port.   I find the C lifters to be spongy and bleed down easily, which you then hear the next day while they refill.  But sounds like you are using Hy-Lifts now.

543 ramps may be milder than 54, I am not familiar with that cam.  Really fast ramps can make even excellent lifters make some noise.   But after a quick look at fuelings description... I'd say it's starting to make a lot more sense.  Andrews cams typically use a faster ramp.

543 CAMS - The 'Freeway Flyer', a great camshaft for those who want more top end power than our 525 cam without sacrificing low end torque. Extremely smooth cam lobe layout maintains quiet valve-train and produces the smoothest cruise power band available. Excellent bolt in camshaft for stock to mild 96" and 103" engines and works well in 88" & 95" engines. This cam is easy starting, increases throttle response and fuel mileage. Responds well to increased compression ratio, performance exhaust and a high flow air cleaner. Performance valve springs are required on �99-�04 engines and performance pushrods and lifters are recommended but not required. RPM 1,900 - 6,000

Intake noise that rattles the actuator gears is due to closed or partially closed throttle plate.  Think high vacuum pulses.  But, throttle plate noise is going to be there cold or hot... so not likely your problem.   If you had a 57h then I would say you absolutely would have it... but you would know because it's pretty damned obvious.

BTW you need to get a pushrod tube kit, shorter lower tubes and longer clips, to use adjustables without a huge amount of swearing (if you can even get to the adjuster.)

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2020, 02:43:33 PM »
The protrusion was slightly increased over stock to compensate for the higher lift. The head package supports up to .6 lift as stated on my site. In my opinion. 025 is too close on the squish but you say it is not hitting? Ok. I shoot for .030+ not -

Replaced the head gaskets just in case, it's .045" now

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2020, 02:53:29 PM »
The 543's with oem lifters was half as loud as the 54's with hylifts, so go figure???
I will say, that the the hylifts are pressure fed from the side and purge any air pretty quickly.
The OEM lifters get oiled from the top and take a really long time to purge. (maybe 5 miles)
Despite the general consensus that OEM are crap, when I had both sets apart, the OEM seemed to be closer and more consistent clearances than the Hylifts.

As for intake noise. The noise is there even with the throttle closed and coasting downhill, so unless I'm wrong, I don't think its intake noise.

All hydraulic lifters are oiled from the side.  Maybe you mean the hylifts oil the roller with a port.   I find the C lifters to be spongy and bleed down easily, which you then hear the next day while they refill.  But sounds like you are using Hy-Lifts now.

543 ramps may be milder than 54, I am not familiar with that cam.  Really fast ramps can make even excellent lifters make some noise.   But after a quick look at fuelings description... I'd say it's starting to make a lot more sense.  Andrews cams typically use a faster ramp.

543 CAMS - The 'Freeway Flyer', a great camshaft for those who want more top end power than our 525 cam without sacrificing low end torque. Extremely smooth cam lobe layout maintains quiet valve-train and produces the smoothest cruise power band available. Excellent bolt in camshaft for stock to mild 96" and 103" engines and works well in 88" & 95" engines. This cam is easy starting, increases throttle response and fuel mileage. Responds well to increased compression ratio, performance exhaust and a high flow air cleaner. Performance valve springs are required on �99-�04 engines and performance pushrods and lifters are recommended but not required. RPM 1,900 - 6,000

Intake noise that rattles the actuator gears is due to closed or partially closed throttle plate.  Think high vacuum pulses.  But, throttle plate noise is going to be there cold or hot... so not likely your problem.   If you had a 57h then I would say you absolutely would have it... but you would know because it's pretty damned obvious.

BTW you need to get a pushrod tube kit, shorter lower tubes and longer clips, to use adjustables without a huge amount of swearing (if you can even get to the adjuster.)

I picked the 543's because of feulings claims of quiet valvetrain.
Yes, they are quieter than the Andrews 54's for sure, or are oem lifters quieter that Hylifts?

Thanks for the tip on the pushrod tubes, both of my other bikes had adjustables when I bought them.
As you can tell, I'm not a big fan of adjustables. The threads were slightly marred on my other bikes and yes, there was some swearing going on!!!

Offline rageglide

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2020, 03:58:15 PM »

I picked the 543's because of feulings claims of quiet valvetrain.
Yes, they are quieter than the Andrews 54's for sure, or are oem lifters quieter that Hylifts?

Thanks for the tip on the pushrod tubes, both of my other bikes had adjustables when I bought them.
As you can tell, I'm not a big fan of adjustables. The threads were slightly marred on my other bikes and yes, there was some swearing going on!!!

If you aren't careful with some of the adjustables you can deform the threads when there are flats on the threaded portion.  Adjusters with 40tpi are more delicate, most have 24 or 32tpi.  Just be careful to not apply force with the wrench used on the adjuster portion and you'll be ok.  Avoid loctite as well...

Offline Coyote

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2020, 04:00:31 PM »
I was promised Monsoons.