Author Topic: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.  (Read 1366 times)

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Offline Roadflyer

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Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« on: January 13, 2020, 10:21:11 AM »
The bike is a 2016 Road King that I bought with about 10000 miles on it.

I rode it the first season as I got it with an se air cleaner and street canons. I recall there was some ticking but I  thought it was just rocker shafts and didn't worry too much.
Later on, I installed rock outs and it didn't improve at all.

When I had the heads done and installed the 110 drop in cylinders and Andrews 54's with hylift lifters, I noticed that a couple of the rocker shafts were still loose despite having the rock outs installed. I removed the shafts and ground a new much smaller relief 180 deg from the original and made sure each rocker shaft was snug with the rocker bolts installed.
(there is no way those shafts can rock now).

The base circle on the 54's is the same as stock, the heads were decked .010", the cylinders were decked .015"
and I'm running a .025 head gasket, so there must be plenty of lifter preload with the stock pushrods.

The bike runs great and is totally quiet when cold, as soon as I ride it about a mile it starts to tick.
When fully warmed up, it will tick quite badly. It would be loud at 1950 rpm, go away completely at 2200 and be right back at 2400. The noise will present itself exactly the same every time I ride the bike.
It got so bad on a hot day on the highway, that I thought the bike was coming apart.
I tried 20-60 dino oil and it was somewhat better for 50 miles then back to the same.

I decided to try another set of cams / lifters, so I dropped in a pair of Feuling 543's and the original stock lifters.

I would say the the ticking is about half of what it was with the 54's and hylifts, but, the weird thing is that the
ticking now happens at about 2200 rpm and it now quiet at 1950 and 2400 rpm where it used to be quiet!!!

My thought are, that this must be valve spring harmonics ??
If this is true, why don't all the bikes do it? Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree?
I will ad, that the heads were done by HDSP.

Your thoughts?







Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2020, 10:27:13 AM »
The bike is a 2016 Road King that I bought with about 10000 miles on it.

I rode it the first season as I got it with an se air cleaner and street canons. I recall there was some ticking but I  thought it was just rocker shafts and didn't worry too much.
Later on, I installed rock outs and it didn't improve at all.

When I had the heads done and installed the 110 drop in cylinders and Andrews 54's with hylift lifters, I noticed that a couple of the rocker shafts were still loose despite having the rock outs installed. I removed the shafts and ground a new much smaller relief 180 deg from the original and made sure each rocker shaft was snug with the rocker bolts installed.
(there is no way those shafts can rock now).

The base circle on the 54's is the same as stock, the heads were decked .010", the cylinders were decked .015"
and I'm running a .025 head gasket, so there must be plenty of lifter preload with the stock pushrods.

The bike runs great and is totally quiet when cold, as soon as I ride it about a mile it starts to tick.
When fully warmed up, it will tick quite badly. It would be loud at 1950 rpm, go away completely at 2200 and be right back at 2400. The noise will present itself exactly the same every time I ride the bike.
It got so bad on a hot day on the highway, that I thought the bike was coming apart.
I tried 20-60 dino oil and it was somewhat better for 50 miles then back to the same.

I decided to try another set of cams / lifters, so I dropped in a pair of Feuling 543's and the original stock lifters.

I would say the the ticking is about half of what it was with the 54's and hylifts, but, the weird thing is that the
ticking now happens at about 2200 rpm and it now quiet at 1950 and 2400 rpm where it used to be quiet!!!

My thought are, that this must be valve spring harmonics ??
If this is true, why don't all the bikes do it? Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree?
I will ad, that the heads were done by HDSP.

Your thoughts?


Sorry. With the 543's its quiet at 1950 and 2400 rpm where it used to be at its worst with the 54's

Offline 1workinman

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2020, 10:47:31 AM »
When i bought the 12 street glide from a dealer used checked out ready to all a bad idea it started a noise ticking in less than 500 miles after i bought it on the way ride the dragon . I rememeber it sounded like a lifter at first . Turned out to be a rod going south . The POS was my last stock harley lol . I rode it back ticking it got worse . I would have had it towed but it mad and i rode it back raising hell .

Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2020, 12:18:58 PM »
If you are using the stock pushrods how did you establish/verify proper length? what are you using for valves & springs?

Offline Hillside Motorcycle

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 03:50:59 AM »
I'd suggest to start by loading the lifters to .140-.150", if you have not.
Otto Knowbetter's business rules;
1) Mind yours, 2) Stay out of mine.

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 07:43:08 AM »
If you are using the stock pushrods how did you establish/verify proper length? what are you using for valves & springs?

HDSP used the stock springs and AV&V valves 1.9" and 1.575" with bronze guides.

Respectfully, I ask. As long as there is plenty of preload and the lifters are not bottomed out, what does it matter what the preload is?
I don't know what the preload is. I do know its considerably more that the way it came from the factory and the lifters are not bottomed out.
I had adjustable pushrods on my 2005 RK, It had very light valve noise when hot with Andrews 54's.
I tried setting the lifters at various depths and it never made a spot of difference where I set them.
That's why I decided to stick with stock pushrods on this build.

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2020, 08:51:59 AM »
Are there any witness marks on the rocker boxes?
I prefer an interesting vice to a boring virtue.

Offline jsachs1

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2020, 02:25:24 PM »
You mentioned that the heads were done and the valves were changed. Valve Protrusion change (valve installed height) will affect push rod length requirement. :oops:
John

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2020, 02:53:04 PM »
Are there any witness marks on the rocker boxes?

No, there are no marks on the rocker boxes.

Offline Roadflyer

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2020, 03:36:43 PM »
You mentioned that the heads were done and the valves were changed. Valve Protrusion change (valve installed height) will affect push rod length requirement. :oops:
John

I don't get where the "oops" was? Yes, valve protrusion will affect lifter plunger depth, as will the heads and barrels being decked. I didn't have anything to actually measure the plunger depth, but I'm pretty confident by visually checking it was no less than .120" and nowhere near the .200" that bottoms the plunger.

I'm not sure that throwing a $200 set of adjustable pushrods in and setting them to the magical number of .140"
is going to get rid of any noise.

Neither will replacing the lifters with the current lifter of the month.
Or replacing the oil with somebody"s cure all formula.

I find the fact that the bike runs perfectly quiet cold, and when warm it runs quiet at some rpm's but noisy at others a bit odd.
The noise is neither throttle or load sensitive, its always there at certain rpms.
It's maybe half as bad with the 543's as it was with the 54's, but happens at different rpm's.

Offline Coyote

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2020, 03:50:19 PM »
FWIW, and I suspect not much, there's no way I'd not be using adjustable PR's in your case.  If I read everything correctly, you really have no idea where you're at.
I was promised Monsoons.

Offline kd

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2020, 05:30:44 PM »
Check your rocker stand bolts for witness marks from contacting the flat on the rocker shaft when it rocks back and forth while running.  If the noise is between 2,000 and 3,500 after it is up to temp, it is very likely that's the problem.  The marks will look like () only 90 degrees from this pic at the same height / depth as the rocker shaft.  Curve up and curve down.  If you see that you are likely on to it.  There are ways to fix it but the easiest is a set of Rockout Rocker Lock sleeves.  Visit our vendor section and you'll find them under that name.
KD

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2020, 07:23:27 PM »
kd, in the op, he mentioned that Rocker Lockers are installed and made no difference.
I prefer an interesting vice to a boring virtue.

Offline kd

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2020, 07:55:30 PM »
 :oops:  Itís been a tough day.
KD

Offline BIMMER

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2020, 08:59:43 PM »
  Wheres your squish set at??? are you at 0 deck hieght?? does the motor tick on decell also?  Man your running pretty tight clearance .025 head gasket. if your zero deck that piston is probally touching as it rocks off the comp stroke cycle, seen it a few times on builds, i believe you have pretty much eliminate lifter noise,   Piston too head contact or valve to piston,  but im leaning piston to head contact. its a subtle tick cold an as motor warms it gets noisier.People would think it would sound more like a knock, Not if its just barely touching. tick. it will drive ya nuts, Chasing lifter noise.Good Luck.

Offline Hillside Motorcycle

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2020, 04:22:21 AM »
FWIW, and I suspect not much, there's no way I'd not be using adjustable PR's in your case.  If I read everything correctly, you really have no idea where you're at.
 

I agree. :up:
Otto Knowbetter's business rules;
1) Mind yours, 2) Stay out of mine.

Offline jsachs1

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2020, 02:19:43 PM »
You mentioned that the heads were done and the valves were changed. Valve Protrusion change (valve installed height) will affect push rod length requirement. :oops:
John

I don't get where the "oops" was? Yes, valve protrusion will affect lifter plunger depth, as will the heads and barrels being decked. I didn't have anything to actually measure the plunger depth, but I'm pretty confident by visually checking it was no less than .120" and nowhere near the .200" that bottoms the plunger

I'm not sure that throwing a $200 set of adjustable pushrods in and setting them to the magical number of .140"
is going to get rid of any noise.

Neither will replacing the lifters with the current lifter of the month.
Or replacing the oil with somebody"s cure all formula.

I find the fact that the bike runs perfectly quiet cold, and when warm it runs quiet at some rpm's but noisy at others a bit odd.
The noise is neither throttle or load sensitive, its always there at certain rpms.
It's maybe half as bad with the 543's as it was with the 54's, but happens at different rpm's.
The oops means, did you check or know what the installed height of all 4 valves are. In today's age "close enough" don't cut it.  Carry on. :banghead:

Offline jsachs1

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2020, 02:32:49 PM »
  Wheres your squish set at??? are you at 0 deck hieght?? does the motor tick on decell also?  Man your running pretty tight clearance .025 head gasket. if your zero deck that piston is probally touching as it rocks off the comp stroke cycle, seen it a few times on builds, i believe you have pretty much eliminate lifter noise,   Piston too head contact or valve to piston,  but im leaning piston to head contact. its a subtle tick cold an as motor warms it gets noisier.People would think it would sound more like a knock, Not if its just barely touching. tick. it will drive ya nuts, Chasing lifter noise.Good Luck.
FWIW, If you have a flat top piston, in a sleeved aluminum cylinder, just touching the deck of the head, like .010", as the engine warms up the cylinders will grow, and the noise will disappear. That's a fact.  :up:
John

Offline kd

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2020, 02:42:27 PM »
 :agree:
KD

Offline Dogbone45ACP

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2020, 05:16:45 PM »
Have you talked to Don at HDSP ? He maybe able to shed some light on the ticking.

Offline Hossamania

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2020, 05:20:24 PM »
Pushrods hitting the tubes?
I prefer an interesting vice to a boring virtue.

Offline Propflux01

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2020, 06:28:38 PM »
If the pushrods are hitting the tubes, what is the fix?
A Shovel And A 55-Gallon Drum Can Solve Alot Of Life's Little "Issues"...

Offline kd

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2020, 06:45:14 PM »
There's 2 things you can do. The first is to bore the top tube out to 5/8" about 1 1/2 " deep from the top.  that gives the pushrod a titch more clearance and that is usually enough to  make a difference.  The other you can't do if you have rocker Lockers.  Take of the rocker cover and loosen the rocker stand fasteners,  sight down on the pushrod tubes and re-position the rocker stand to where the pushrod is most centered in the tube.  Usually that means pulling it to the right side of the engine.  Snug the bolts, roll the engine over and watch them to be sure you have the sweet spot and torque to spec.  If you have Rocker Lockers they won't move because the brass sleeves tighten the fit to the rocker stand fasteners and keep them centered.
KD

Offline Coyote

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2020, 07:00:44 PM »
OR you can install good, adjustable tapered PR's, which should have been done anyways, IMO, and there you go.
I was promised Monsoons.

Offline rageglide

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Re: Another ticking 103 post, your opinions pls.
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2020, 08:03:19 PM »
At least with adjustables you'll know what the preload is, which at this point you are only guessing.  If you really want a solid pushrod, size them with a spare adjustable then have customs built.

If these are oem lifters then all bets are off, imo.  The loose tolerances make them spongy.

Have you ever tried running without an air cleaner?  Some cams are more prone to rattling the throttle plate which in turn rattles the gears in the throttle body.  Cams like Andrews 57h rattle it hard enough to make a clucking sound which doesn't sound like what you are dealing with.  The noise occurs in the RPM range you're talking about.