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Oil dip stick surprise

Started by Psychro, January 19, 2020, 06:13:12 PM

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Psychro

January 19, 2020, 06:13:12 PM Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 01:41:27 AM by FSG
I have a 1999 FLHT standard.  The frame has 109,000 miles and the motor & transmission about 40,000 miles.  At some point the previous owner upgraded to a 103 CI screaming eagle motor, a six speed transmission and an oil cooler.  I have had this bike for several years and have put over 15,000 miles on it.  About 2500 miles ago I changed the oil and filter.  Standard HD filter and 20W-50 oil.  I commute year around hot or cold, usually less than 10 miles each way.  The bike has been sitting in my garage for the last 3 weeks due to heavy (for Seattle) snow.  Snow is now gone so intending to ride to work tomorrow morning. 

And now, finally, my question. Checking tires and fluids and discovered a tan material at the top of the dip stick and in the dipstick "throat".  See pictures.  WTF? Any comments would be much appreciated!

[attach=0,msg1330788]   

[attach=1,msg1330788]
4 of the 5 voices in my head say "go for it!"

kd

Your short trips are contaminating your oil with moisture.  It takes an extended ride up to temp to vaporize and expel condensation that builds up in a cold engine. Especially when riding in cold weather, you have to extend your run time for that to not happen.  Condensation in your oil like you are showing makes acid which in turn etches your cylinders, rings and bearings etc.  Not good.

As I see it you have 2 choices.  Take it out and put  50 or so miles on it and recheck it or preferably warm it up, drain and change the oil.  From that point on no more short trips unless you feel flu$h.
KD

hardheaded

I think i would change that oil and filter before riding it again.  And take it for an extended ride and change the oil and filter again.  But that's just what i would do.

PoorUB

Cover your oil cooler, If it has a thermostat it might be stuck open. I agree with the others, short trips, cold temps, the engine never gets up to temp. In cold weather I wonder if 50 miles will do it. Sad part is just changing the oil will not get all the moisture out, you need to get it hot. I would plan on a good ride one weekend, a couple hundred miles. You need to run it long enough to get it hot, and long enough to bake out the moisture.

Yours is the extreme case why not to run an engine unless you can get it up to temp.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

kd

January 19, 2020, 06:49:21 PM #4 Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 06:53:35 PM by kd
Quote from: PoorUB on January 19, 2020, 06:42:45 PM
Cover your oil cooler, If it has a thermostat it might be stuck open. I agree with the others, short trips, cold temps, the engine never gets up to temp. In cold weather I wonder if 50 miles will do it. Sad part is just changing the oil will not get all the moisture out, you need to get it hot. I would plan on a good ride one weekend, a couple hundred miles. You need to run it long enough to get it hot, and long enough to bake out the moisture.

Yours is the extreme case why not to run an engine unless you can get it up to temp.
Quote from: hardheaded on January 19, 2020, 06:37:19 PM
I think i would change that oil and filter before riding it again.  And take it for an extended ride and change the oil and filter again.  But that's just what i would do.


I probably would too but it's his decision.  Condensation is fairly common with people that take short trips and don't check their oil to notice it.  It definitely is not good but isn't sudden death either.  When it sits the acid gremlins go to work.  It'll have to be brought up to hot operation to get a good oil draining job.  At least 1/2 qt will not come out unless you do a full flush with the engine running.  A search on this site may find the instructions for doing that. Otherwise a double oil change will clear it. 

PoorUB.   :up:
KD

doctorevil

I have seen this on weekend bar bikes. You need to pull the rocker box covers. the muck will be thick . I clean them in hot solvent parts cleaner.

autoworker

You need to ride it long enough and hot enough to get the oil temperature  to burn off the water.
It must be true,I read it on the internet.

Psychro

Interesting.  Thanks all for your very helpful responses!  My first thought was water contamination but could not figure out the source.  Condensation makes sense and see how this is caused by not warming up enough, cold ambient temperatures (mid to low 30s) and my short commute.  Sounds like this "froth" will accumulate at motor high points?  Will do a oil/filter change, take a good run to warm things up then another hot oil/filter change and check under the rocker covers.  Thanks again for the help!
Psycho
4 of the 5 voices in my head say "go for it!"

FSG

QuoteCover your oil cooler, If it has a thermostat it might be stuck open.

:agree:

running in cool weather I'd cover it regardless

92flhtcu

short trips kill, oil moisture pudding!
Need a bigger garage

guido4198

Any time it's cool enough outside for you to need a jacket to ride, you should put one on your oil cooler as well.

smoserx1

I also have a 99 and used to commute to work daily in North Carolina before I retired.  The commute was 21 or so miles one way, sometimes in winter the morning commute was below 20°.  I always got this every winter, not quite as bad as your pic shows but definitely there.  One day I rode 130 miles when it was 37° and still had it when I got home.  I do not have an oil cooler and still have the same bike today.  Don't worry too much about it.  I never saw any actual evidence of the foam in the oil when I did an oil change and believe me I did many of them when I still had foam on the dip stick and it was very cold outside.  Remember, condensation is caused when you have a big difference in temperature (take a cold beer out of the refrigerator on a hot day and see it sweat).  Same thing here.  Your oil pan is sitting remotely behind the engine and the throat of the dipstick is above the oil level so the hot oil does not even contact it there.  If you ride in really cold weather it will probably never get hot enough at that point to completely eliminate this.  If you are really concerned about it go ahead and change your oil, but if you do and don't see the effect in the actual oil that came out, just ride on and stop worrying.  Do cover that oil cooler though.

Beave

Anyone that rides year-round has this issue to some extent, but your situation is aggravated by your location.  The rain and high humidity of Seattle puts an incredible amount of moisture in the air which winds up in your oil.  I would check your breather as this is where the water is expelled, preferably not back into the intake.  Soft lowers can help maintain motor temps; it won't eliminate problem but it might reduce it.
With speed comes stability.

hogpipes1

I use to do the same dumb ass thing in late fall /early spring .Ride the bike to work  2 nd shift. Same white sludge in the oil. Pull your clutch cover off and i'd bet a beer the inside of your pri-cover is coated also. Cold damp weather and short runs under 50 mi's is a eng .killer.

Psychro

Quote from: 92flhtcu on January 20, 2020, 03:15:20 AM
short trips kill, oil moisture pudding!

Good idea and thanks to both of you.
4 of the 5 voices in my head say "go for it!"

Psychro

Quote from: smoserx1 on January 20, 2020, 04:28:06 AM
I also have a 99 and used to commute to work daily in North Carolina before I retired.  The commute was 21 or so miles one way, sometimes in winter the morning commute was below 20°.  I always got this every winter, not quite as bad as your pic shows but definitely there.  One day I rode 130 miles when it was 37° and still had it when I got home.  I do not have an oil cooler and still have the same bike today.  Don't worry too much about it.  I never saw any actual evidence of the foam in the oil when I did an oil change and believe me I did many of them when I still had foam on the dip stick and it was very cold outside.  Remember, condensation is caused when you have a big difference in temperature (take a cold beer out of the refrigerator on a hot day and see it sweat).  Same thing here.  Your oil pan is sitting remotely behind the engine and the throat of the dipstick is above the oil level so the hot oil does not even contact it there.  If you ride in really cold weather it will probably never get hot enough at that point to completely eliminate this.  If you are really concerned about it go ahead and change your oil, but if you do and don't see the effect in the actual oil that came out, just ride on and stop worrying.  Do cover that oil cooler though.

I'm thinking I need to put a little heat in my garage!  Back when I lived in a much colder place people would use engine block heaters and plug in their cars every night in the winter.  Some used a dipstick heater.  Anyone heard of an after market electric dipstick oil heater?
4 of the 5 voices in my head say "go for it!"

Psychro

January 20, 2020, 12:35:48 PM #16 Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 02:25:21 PM by Psychro
Quote from: hogpipes1 on January 20, 2020, 10:04:00 AM
I use to do the same dumb ass thing in late fall /early spring .Ride the bike to work  2 nd shift. Same white sludge in the oil. Pull your clutch cover off and i'd bet a beer the inside of your pri-cover is coated also. Cold damp weather and short runs under 50 mi's is a eng .killer.

I'll check and let you know about the beer.

Primary ok but I'll still buy you that beer next time you are near Seattle.
4 of the 5 voices in my head say "go for it!"

smoserx1

QuoteI'm thinking I need to put a little heat in my garage!  Back when I lived in a much colder place people would use engine block heaters and plug in their cars every night in the winter.  Some used a dipstick heater.  Anyone heard of an after market electric dipstick oil heater?

I really don't think it will do much good.  Yes you live in an area that has lots of rain and humidity but most of the moisture you are dealing with here is from combustion.  Combustion of a hydrocarbon fuel like gasoline results in carbon dioxide and water vapor and this gets into your crankcase from blowby past the piston rings.  The crankcase is vented to the oil tank via a hose and since the dip stick and filler neck reside at a place on the oil pan somewhat remote from the engine and  exposed to cold air this moisture from the combustion is very prone to condense exactly where you have shown it in your pictures.  Chances are most of this condensed moisture will simply stay put and will eventually evaporate as the weather warms, but when I commuted it was there constantly during the winter months and finally gradually disappeared when spring arrived.  Now if you come home and heat your garage or put a heated dipstick in what I think will happen is this foam will liquefy and run down and actually contaminate the oil where is would likely have stayed put if you just left it alone.  And even in warm weather you are still getting moisture from combustion.  It contaminates the oil...you just don't see it since the moisture is in a vapor form.  you also get fuel contamination as well as a host of  chemicals and this is why engine oil needs to be changed.  Your primary is less likely to get moisture contamination since it does not receive combustion products.  Quit worrying so much, you are not killing your engine by riding it in the winter.

motorhogman

Quote from: Psychro on January 20, 2020, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: smoserx1 on January 20, 2020, 04:28:06 AM
I also have a 99 and used to commute to work daily in North Carolina before I retired.  The commute was 21 or so miles one way, sometimes in winter the morning commute was below 20°.  I always got this every winter, not quite as bad as your pic shows but definitely there.  One day I rode 130 miles when it was 37° and still had it when I got home.  I do not have an oil cooler and still have the same bike today.  Don't worry too much about it.  I never saw any actual evidence of the foam in the oil when I did an oil change and believe me I did many of them when I still had foam on the dip stick and it was very cold outside.  Remember, condensation is caused when you have a big difference in temperature (take a cold beer out of the refrigerator on a hot day and see it sweat).  Same thing here.  Your oil pan is sitting remotely behind the engine and the throat of the dipstick is above the oil level so the hot oil does not even contact it there.  If you ride in really cold weather it will probably never get hot enough at that point to completely eliminate this.  If you are really concerned about it go ahead and change your oil, but if you do and don't see the effect in the actual oil that came out, just ride on and stop worrying.  Do cover that oil cooler though.

I'm thinking I need to put a little heat in my garage!  Back when I lived in a much colder place people would use engine block heaters and plug in their cars every night in the winter.  Some used a dipstick heater.  Anyone heard of an after market electric dipstick oil heater?

I don't think a dip stick heater will do a bit of good.  Your problem is the engine isn't reaching operating temp and run long enough at it.  I had your issue with my 73 shovel and it was kept in a heated garage.  Short runs are more of the culprit than where you keep the bike stored,  I like you was riding a very short distance to work while living in MI. If there wasn't snow on the ground I rode. had a nasty condensation issue in the oil tank around the old drop in oil filter and the primary case as well..
where's the points and condenser ?<br />Tom / aka motor

hogpipes1

Quote from: motorhogman on January 20, 2020, 03:09:39 PM
Quote from: Psychro on January 20, 2020, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: smoserx1 on January 20, 2020, 04:28:06 AM
I also have a 99 and used to commute to work daily in North Carolina before I retired.  The commute was 21 or so miles one way, sometimes in winter the morning commute was below 20°.  I always got this every winter, not quite as bad as your pic shows but definitely there.  One day I rode 130 miles when it was 37° and still had it when I got home.  I do not have an oil cooler and still have the same bike today.  Don't worry too much about it.  I never saw any actual evidence of the foam in the oil when I did an oil change and believe me I did many of them when I still had foam on the dip stick and it was very cold outside.  Remember, condensation is caused when you have a big difference in temperature (take a cold beer out of the refrigerator on a hot day and see it sweat).  Same thing here.  Your oil pan is sitting remotely behind the engine and the throat of the dipstick is above the oil level so the hot oil does not even contact it there.  If you ride in really cold weather it will probably never get hot enough at that point to completely eliminate this.  If you are really concerned about it go ahead and change your oil, but if you do and don't see the effect in the actual oil that came out, just ride on and stop worrying.  Do cover that oil cooler though.

I'm thinking I need to put a little heat in my garage!  Back when I lived in a much colder place people would use engine block heaters and plug in their cars every night in the winter.  Some used a dipstick heater.  Anyone heard of an after market electric dipstick oil heater?

I don't think a dip stick heater will do a bit of good.  Your problem is the engine isn't reaching operating temp and run long enough at it.  I had your issue with my 73 shovel and it was kept in a heated garage.  Short runs are more of the culprit than where you keep the bike stored,  I like you was riding a very short distance to work while living in MI. If there wasn't snow on the ground I rode. had a nasty condensation issue in the oil tank around the old drop in oil filter and the primary case as well..

Yep for sure, MI winter rinding will do it , same as for cars  but few people even look up the  under the  hood much anymore.

kd

I'm waiting for fleetmechanic to chime in.  I'll bet he has some good observations and remedies.
KD

fleetmechanic

January 20, 2020, 05:46:44 PM #21 Last Edit: January 20, 2020, 05:53:02 PM by fleetmechanic
On all of our rigs that run sidecars on the snow days in the winter the oil coolers had to be removed to allow sidecar brackets to be installed.  We also have soft lowers on all of them and lap robes on a few of them. The funeral escort runs we do are definitely long enough to fully heat the oil and I haven't seen this type of coagulation in any of our bikes. The garage stays about 50 degrees even when it's below zero outside.  Too much colder would make them slow to start in the mornings


Y2KRKNG

Stay out of 6th also. keep those Rs up in the high 2k range.
ATP(TurboHarry)95",Mik45,Branch/Mik "Flowmetric" heads,TW55,T.Header 2-1

Y2KRKNG

ATP(TurboHarry)95",Mik45,Branch/Mik "Flowmetric" heads,TW55,T.Header 2-1