Auto Tunes

[PoorUB]

Considering doing a Vance and Hines Fuelpak Auto-Tune on a 2015 CVO Streeglde. Any of you guys have used this tuner? If so, what are your thoughts? Any suggestions on other can tunes? Just trying to add a little more fuel to the fuel and air mixture. Want the bike to run a little cooler.

The OP was looking for opinions on the V&H unit and for their thoughts.
I gave him my opinion and thoughts just like he asked. I thought I was being helpful.

I guess your opinion and thoughts differ from mine and you felt the need to be combative and immature in your view. So I guess anyone who has a different view from yours gets treated like this? How can your views be benifical to the OP's original question? 

I would not call Ohio's comments opinions. Closer to facts than yours.

Fuel Pack gets a bad name here because of guys in the business that have tried to tune with it, and also used other tuners. These are guys that do this every day, not just your once or twice on your own bike.

Also, like Ohio said, a good dyno operator does not flog your bike against the rev limiter for hours, most of the tuning is running the engine at various loads and various RPM. sure there is some wide open runs, but the engine can handle it.

Pretty much without exception anyone that loves the Fuel Pack is someone with little or no actual tuning experience and never tried any other tuner. "I used it, it worked, (As far as I know), so it has to be great!"

I have to wonder if Fuel Pack is so great why all the calls and downloads? I thought you could DIY tune with Fuel Pack? I use the TTS Tuner, down loaded one calibration and tune myself from there. I might have had a couple questions in the beginning, but never had to have TTS send me revised maps.

[PoorUB]

Maybe professional tuners hate the Fuelpac because people who purchase it don't need to go to a pro tuner any longer? Not knocking the pro tuners out there, I just didn't need one to get my bike running fantastic.

First, watch your quotes.

Second, other tuners out there will allow a do it yourself tune, nothing special about that. I have tuned two Harleys and helped my buddy tune two of his Harleys using the TTS tuner. No dyno involved.

[PoorUB]

I didn;t ask for a new map, only a tweek on my current map. Took a whole 10 minutes and $0 dollars.

New or revised, no difference. The point in you had to call.

I use the TTS. I can revise the map myself, in a couple minutes and reflash the ECM and get on down the road while you are waiting. I thought the Fuel Pack was a DIY tuner?

[sharkoilfield]

I'm a firm believer in a QUALIFIED dyno tune. Easy to dismiss with rationalizing, especially if you've never had one. I've had 5 HD's dyno tuned 8-10 times in total as different builds were done. The most basic, my wife's STG1 '08 with S&S cams, received a two day dyno session (free; I had a connection) and is easily the SMOOTHEST Harley I've ever ridden. For a short while I had two 103's; 111HP with a CV51 and 90HP with EFI. The carb ran 25° cooler. 13.6:1 AFR. Not easily attainable on EFI.  While I'm certain a "canned" tune can be adequate, nobody's butt is as accurate as a competent dyno tune.

[Buglet]

   What are the chances of having two Pro Tuners tune the same bike on the same dyno and end up with the same map. Which one would be the better one. I've being to enough Pro tuners around the country and not one of them tune the same as another one, they all run good at the end of the tune.I can go farther but I won't I don't want to start nothing.But if you don't believes my have you bike Pro tune and then go to another Pro tuner and tell him to tune it and sees what he says at the end and you won't be ably the tell the difference except for a lighter pocket. Each tuner has there on way of doing things. All you have to do is follow this site and you will see this.

[kd]

   What are the chances of having two Pro Tuners tune the same bike on the same dyno and end up with the same map. Which one would be the better one. I've being to enough Pro tuners around the country and not one of them tune the same as another one, they all run good at the end of the tune.I can go farther but I won't I don't want to start nothing.But if you don't believes my have you bike Pro tune and then go to another Pro tuner and tell him to tune it and sees what he says at the end and you won't be ably the tell the difference except for a lighter pocket. Each tuner has there on way of doing things. All you have to do is follow this site and you will see this.

Better yet, what are the chances the re-tune was at the same altitude, temperature, humidity and barometric pressure?  Could the tune have changed somewhere due to an engine condition and closed loop influence?  Those same tuners on this site will caution you about that.  I would be disappointed if a good tuner didn't notice these things and tweek it to the conditions he was reading and instead say "Ohhh that's good enough."  In that case I might as well use an FP3 and settle for a mediocre "that's good enough no need to check all starting, idle, operating conditions and AFR "  tune..

[Buglet]

   Do theses tunes change for the better or the worst. Than how often should you have it re tuned.   

[kd]

   Do theses tunes change for the better or the worst. Than how often should you have it re tuned.   

I am not a tuner but I am a licenced technician so I feel I understand the technical operation of a tuning device fairly well and will give you my take on the tuner.  It really isn't rocket science and easy for anyone to pick up if they are willing to be open minded enough to introduce themselves to some reading.

My opinion is that (depending on which parameters are open or closed loop) a tune should be safe and not change significantly enough to effect AFR, temperature and performance in any real noticeable way for the duration you subject your vehicle to changes in surrounding conditions. (altitude is a good example) Open loop is basically setting the parameters based on input and function, then removing the device's ability to connect to that information and allow it to make changes.  Closed loop is the circuit (information highway) is connected and communicating at lightening speed to changes in conditions and may be making fine corrections.  Having said that, riding up a mountain and sudden changes in altitude, air density, humidity and all else will likely be noticed for the duration.  If the tune is closed loop the device or ECM will make minor adjustments to what it senses. It may not have the time or the ability to conduct itself to such a vast change in such a short time because a small change in one area will effect the area next to it etc. and that has to be dealt with.  If open loop there is no real connection to the sensors that identify changing conditions to the system that is there to buffer unfavorable effects of changing conditions so no change will be made. (much the same as a carb is set with specific metering devices and can't "move to correct AFR with changes in conditions".  With a good tuner like the TTS or PV devices (there are others too), it is a simple matter of running a data log and reading (looking at the picture on a computer) of the way the tune is meeting the engine's needs. You can usually manually even out rough spots to improve any areas that changed because you have relocated to a different area or changed an exhaust system etc.

If the device is capable, some changes will be for the better, but in extreme conditions it could be for the worse too.  I have recently noticed my engine will hunt slightly about 6 to 10 times (1o seconds) on a real cold start before it hits the high idle warm up procedure.  Because of my extreme performance mods the start and warm-up area of the tune is open loop to keep it consistently a good starting engine.  The initial tune was interrupted with a ring issue and since that was remedied the tune has to be brought into compliance so to speak.  My tuner (9 hours away) asked me to run a data log and send it to him. He will read the levels (look at the picture) and reset any cells to be closer to ideal and holding hands with the neighboring cells.

Babble over. Hope that helps and if I miss stated anything I hope to be corrected.

[aswracing]

My big objection to the FP3 is V&H's closed ecosystem. They control all tune distribution. They know and control what's in everyone's bike. There is no PC app for modifying your tune, and there is no emailing a tune to a customer, it's all controlled by V&H. Just like Facebook and Google and Microsoft and all the others, they want to reach into your shorts and invade your privacy and be in control. It's the new way of doing business I guess. And so long as people let them do it, they will.

But it's also a tool that doesn't integrate with any of the common tools you'll find in a dyno setting. There's no way for example to measure AFR with an aftermarket tool and feed the information back into the tune in any kind of an automated fashion, because there's no PC app, because V&H wants control of the tune.

Now I realize they recently came out with a wide band tool. But it's a shop level product. V&H wants shops to buy this tool, develop tunes, and upload them to V&H for distribution. Uhh, no thanks. What I'm sending to my customers is none of V&H's business and they are not entitled to a copy of it. And there's still no consumer-level wide band tuning tool, ala Auto Tune Pro. Much less closed-loop Wide Band. It's an inferior tool for tuning a bike, and anyone who doesn't understand that just doesn't know anything about tuning.

[spdrcr]

Powervision with Target Tune and the wide band O2 sensors are the best choice for a DIY person.

[Hossamania]

Powervision with Target Tune and the wide band O2 sensors are the best choice for a DIY person.

Depends on the person. I think PoorUB used TTS and got his dialed in.
Not knocking PowerVision and TargetTune, they are very good products.

[VernDiesel]

Great and insightful thread. I cut my learning curve just from reading it.