Paint - Reality Check

[phillyfan]

A kid I went to HS with in the late 80s had a 70 SS chevelle with a 454 in it. Him and his dad restored it and had it painted with Imron paint, red with black stripes. One day when we left school he got hit in the drivers side fender at a stop light. Big dent in the fender and the paint didn't chip. Crazy.

[kd]

Imron was originally designed for commercial use for durability and resilience to cleaning with harsh solutions.  Think garbage trucks, plows, etc..  Here's a convenient description.

For decades, Imron polyurethane enamel has been the finish of choice for leading heavy-duty truck, bus and rail manufacturers. Imron paint boasts the highest durability levels, outstanding graffiti performance on topcoats and clears, reliable corrosion protection and excellent resistance to chemicals and weathering, as well as shock and impact. It is no wonder then that Imron paint is widely approved by OEMs, other commercial users and almost all European railway institutes.

The make-up of Imron is nasty.  I have a friend that used it extensively on motorcycles and cars without good ventilation or masks.  I was painting my truck one night and he walked in to the shop, spun around and puked his way out the door.  He acquired the reaction from the conditions he used it in.  It was a known hazard later on but too late for him.

[hattitude]

Imron was originally designed for commercial use for durability and resilience to cleaning with harsh solutions.  Think garbage trucks, plows, etc..  Here's a convenient description.

For decades, Imron polyurethane enamel has been the finish of choice for leading heavy-duty truck, bus and rail manufacturers. Imron paint boasts the highest durability levels, outstanding graffiti performance on topcoats and clears, reliable corrosion protection and excellent resistance to chemicals and weathering, as well as shock and impact. It is no wonder then that Imron paint is widely approved by OEMs, other commercial users and almost all European railway institutes.

The make-up of Imron is nasty.  I have a friend that used it extensively on motorcycles and cars without good ventilation or masks.  I was painting my truck one night and he walked in to the shop, spun around and puked his way out the door.  He acquired the reaction from the conditions he used it in.  It was a known hazard later on but too late for him.

Hatteras Yachts, for many years, put Imron paint over the gelcoat of their hulls and superstructures...

I forget what year they switched to another paint.

I had a 1980 46 Hatteras Convertible from 2000 until 2015. I never "polished" it... I just washed it really well, and there was a certain sealant. I forget what brand now, but it was specially formulated for Imron.  I would use it once a year... The paint was starting to "get thin" in a couple high wear areas when I sold it in 2015, but it still looked great!

This was an early, hazy morning so you can't really tell how good the Imron paint was... but it's a 20+ year old boat that lived it's entire life sitting in the ocean.... 

That Imron was good paint...!!!

[screem]

When i first moved to S W Florida 20 years ago i wanted to paint some tins on a softail and didnt know where to start lookin, so i called my friend back home, who had painted many bikes for me over the years. His suggestion was to go the local paint and body shop supply store and ask the counter guy, if there were any guys that do bikes. He gave me the name of a guy on the outskirts of town that in fact painted bike tins on the side.
   I went to the shop and turned out the manager of the shop painted bikes on the side, after hours. my fear was that my tins would end up being lost in the blackhole of dust on some backroom shelf, the painter said to check with him in a week.... fast forward 7 days later and the tins were ready to pick up..  i wanted the tins done in basic black with old school flames surrounded with a blue pin stripe... the job exceded my high expectations. I have had this guy do many jobs in the past 20 years, always a perfect job, generally in a week or two.
    The shop has many spainish speaking laborers doing the grunt work of sanding and grinding, he pays one of them a few bucks to prep the tins, he squirts them, then they cut and buff them. The owner of the body lets them do all this stuff after hours so they can make some extra dough. for a two tone, with pin stripping and a decal, i would expect $1000- $1500 depending on the cost of materials (colors) i pick

[Flhfxd]

I'd do it myself....it's a cool prject and I would not charge me anywhere near $4000...just sayin

[rageglide]

I'm actually pretty handy with paint. They call me the Rattlecan Rembrandt.


The problem is the facility. I have no where to paint, especially to do a flawless job not loaded with dirt, lint, bugs, and cat hair. Or get overspray all over my other bikes. To do a decent paint job you need either a paint shop, or very big garage. Neither of which I have.

-JW

It's true!   lol   

Actually you do have a place to paint, with a real gun.  You can make a paint booth in your garage.  Bigger issue would be laying out a two tone, and ventilation not sure which would be harder given the water heater and all ;-)  My coworker painted a bronco in his garage, did a pretty good job.  As you know the hard part is the block sanding to beat down the orange peel.  If anything you'd find out how much work is involved then want to give a guy 10k to do it :-)

add...
The problem is going to be getting a product that won't kill you and is workable.  In California Laquer is hard to find, water base products are the norm. 

Saw the comment about Imron, yeah it was good stuff, but evil.  Just like all the commercial two stage polyurethane products.  I used to work in the industry and hated working with the stuff when I had to.  We didn't have good enough masks and I'd have to color match.  Headaches from hell and who knows how much damage to YOU for marginally over minimum wage. 

[ecir50]

as with any trade until you know how to do it yourself and how much time is actually involved in a quality job do you respect what the going rate is.

40hrs @ $100/hr = 4,000 not saying it would take 40hrs but T&M adds up real quick these days.

[rageglide]

    

However, if I'm paying someone $100/hr they better be more efficient and able to do the job much faster than me or some journeyman.  Cost of materials also plays into it as well.

Painting time is probably less than an hour in total not counting pre, mix and cleanup.  Prep and finish work are where the time is, on tanks and fenders I'd guess a skilled guy with proper tools and materials can do all of this in less than 8 hrs.  (curing time doesn't count)   

Around here (SF Bay Area) it's all about location markup.  I know who JW talked to about paint and he has painted a bike for me in the past, he's painting out of his garage and getting market prices.   He does a lot of club work and likely absorbs those discounts by pricing higher for non-club folks.

I had a RoadGlide fairing painted by an auto body place for $350 about 9yrs ago... When I first went to pick it up and looked at it in the sunlight it was obvious they had not cleaned the gun and it had quite a bit of random flake in what was supposed to be pure black... the guy who estimated it originally was NOT happy.  The final product was perfect and I know they lost a lot of money on the job.

[Buglet]

  Around here the insurance companies pay between $46- $52 and hour for paint and body work and dealers are getting $95- $140 for mechanical work. All the small shops are closing as they can afford to stay open. The big shops  are working on volume and giving the insurance companies a break which equals less profit per job for them.

[Pete_Vit]

Separate but related issue...

Why is it so expensive to paint a couple relatively small pieces? I've gotten quotes to repaint trucks that were between $2k-$4k. And that's a full size pick-up. A couple fenders and tank aren't anywhere near the amount of surface area to prep and paint.


I get the 2-tone and striping that add price. But even $1700 for basic black seems pretty steep to me. 

When my C5 front end was damaged they removed the plastic bumper and replaced it plus the C5 badge and painted a new one, replaced it, all for under $2G's
not long ago someone's exhaust let loose in front of me on the interstate, yep, same car, the damage was not so bad, I avoided most of the exhaust/muffler, same deal except they are going to R&R my bumper all for under $800 dollars 

[rageglide]

just noticed in my post above thst I mis typed and said "journeyman" where I meant apprentice... oops. 

[Leed]

When I painted my 06 RG, I did it myself at home.  Built a paint booth using 2" x 2" wood for an 8' x 8'x 8' booth.  Put a good aircondioning filter up high on one side of the booth and a cheapo box fan down on the other side of the booth working as an exhaust fan so paint fumes and overspray went out onto the grass.  Covered the booth with cheap clear plastic from lowes.  Total cost for the booth, fan and filter was less than $100.

Have a good paint gun and compressor with moisture separator capable of supplying air as needed.

Hung the parts that needed hanging from coat hangers suspended from the 2" poles over the top of the booth.

Got a really great paint mask from lowes that while painting, did not even smell fumes.  This is extremely important as the paints used for cars, etc. will paint your lungs and that is BAD!!!  Don't go cheap here - you only have one set of lungs and the paints will ruin them.

Did primer, and several coats of blue over black.  put sparkles into the clear coat and sprayed it - really made the paint pop!!!  Did a few more clear coats with sanding as necessary to get rid of the orange peal.  Followed it all up with 3m compounding and polishing.

Came out great - many compliments. 

Paints set me back around $300 if i recall properly.

Don't want to knock the pros but if you are willing to put in the time and elbow grease, it can be done cheaper.  Two tones are easy with masking but if you want to do skulls and other fancy graphics - see a pro.

My next door neighbor did the same thing on a Suzuki sport bike he restored.  The paint came out great.  Single color, nothing fancy but he built the booth just like you described.

[45mike]

How bad is the paint job on it, chipped peeling or just lotsa swirls and scratchesand dull looking

[crock]

When I painted my 06 RG, I did it myself at home.  Built a paint booth using 2" x 2" wood for an 8' x 8'x 8' booth. Put a good aircondioning filter up high on one side of the booth and a cheapo box fan down on the other side of the booth working as an exhaust fan so paint fumes and overspray went out onto the grass.  Covered the booth with cheap clear plastic from lowes.  Total cost for the booth, fan and filter was less than $100.

Have a good paint gun and compressor with moisture separator capable of supplying air as needed.

Hung the parts that needed hanging from coat hangers suspended from the 2" poles over the top of the booth.

Got a really great paint mask from lowes that while painting, did not even smell fumes.  This is extremely important as the paints used for cars, etc. will paint your lungs and that is BAD!!!  Don't go cheap here - you only have one set of lungs and the paints will ruin them.

Did primer, and several coats of blue over black.  put sparkles into the clear coat and sprayed it - really made the paint pop!!!  Did a few more clear coats with sanding as necessary to get rid of the orange peal.  Followed it all up with 3m compounding and polishing.

Came out great - many compliments. 

Paints set me back around $300 if i recall properly.

Don't want to knock the pros but if you are willing to put in the time and elbow grease, it can be done cheaper.  Two tones are easy with masking but if you want to do skulls and other fancy graphics - see a pro.

My next door neighbor did the same thing on a Suzuki sport bike he restored.  The paint came out great.  Single color, nothing fancy but he built the booth just like you described.

Pop up canopy from wally world

[72fl]

Imron boy oh boy haven't heard that in a while, my buddy who is a skilled painter very skilled painter once painted a car with Imron, he got so sick he thought he was dieing, and his normal 8 hour day job was as a Painter but he wasn't equipped at his home with an actual paint booth.

JW, I don't know if this is an option for you but have you thought about getting your parts Powder Coated possibly ? There are some places now that their coatings are smooth as Glass. We have a Company here that is Amazing.

I don't know if I can add a Link to their website, don't want to upset anyone. Here's a sample photo of their work.

[Hossamania]

I'm not sure a two-tone paint could be done with powder coat, but I think that looks pretty good, I'd like to see one in person.

[72fl]

Hoss they do twotone, but I haven't seen it personally either but I do know they do a Ton of stuff and are very reasonable from what I have seen. Here is a rim they done.

[kd]

I painted my rims like that on my Red 09 Tacoma when I bought it.  It was so different that for "years" I got at least weekly compliments on them and "Where did you get them questions"?  I also got "I know it was you cuz I saw the rims".   

[Hossamania]

I painted my rims likwe that on my Red 09 Tacoma when I bought it.  It was so different that for years I got at least weekly compliments on them and "Where did you get them question"?  I also got "I know it was you cuz I saw the rims".   

Not a big fan of having an outstanding feature on my vehicle that can identify me should I be implicated in the commission of a crime. Or seen parked at my girlfriend's house. Mrs Hoss doesn't need hard evidence at the divorce proceedings....

[kd]

Yeah, that's my point right there.   

[Hossamania]

That's what I figured!

[JW113]

JW, I don't know if this is an option for you but have you thought about getting your parts Powder Coated possibly ?

You mean like this?

[attach=0,msg1332166]

This is my '78 Ironhead. Everything on it that is black was powder coated. And yes, it turned out very nice, they buffed the tank and fenders and looks 'almost' as good as any top end paint job. Just a wee bit of orange peel that probably could be sanded out further if desired, but this is not a show bike so no need. The only problem with any polyester based powder coat is that even though tough as nails, it scratches easily. And because it's so shiny, they show if you get up close. Again, not a show bike so who cares.

Doing powder on this Softail project would not work. I don't see any practical way to replicate this with the powder process:

[attach=1,msg1332166]

They could probably do the base turquoise and white, but the decal would not take the curing heat, and it would still need to be pin striped and buried in clear. So why bother? Not sure how powder and paint react to one another either.

How bad is the paint job on it, chipped peeling or just lotsa swirls and scratchesand dull looking

In all honesty, for an almost 30 year old bike, it's in pretty good condition. An assortment of chips here and there from wear and tear, but from 20 feet away it looks great. What has a bug in my butt about it is that at sometime in it's past, somebody put a garage door down on the front fender and made a nasty dent. When I got it, I tried to knock it out a bit, cracking the paint in the process. Bob C says it's not that noticeable, and he's right about that. But "I" can see it.


You need to take note that I'm kind of a perfectionist when it comes to the appearance of my bikes. A personality flaw for sure. I like them to look like they rolled off the showroom floor. But for this Softail, is it going to be worth $5K to get that? I'm really struggling to answer that question.

So yes it has a dented front fender that I'd like to fix. It also has 4.25 gallon tanks, and I really prefer the 5.25 gallon, which I have a set of. How badly? Tough decision.

So I have two choices at this point. Ether stop the whining and fork over the cash to get it painted, or....  spend a bit more time on the front fender to get the rest of the dent out, touch it up (I can do that), touch up all the other little chips (been doing that), color sand/buff the whole thing, and call it "a survivor".

One comment about Imron, since it's come up. It was created back in the day as an industrial coating for trucks, big rigs, and locomotives, things that see lots of miles and wear and tear, and to look good at a distance not up close. Yes, it is very hard and tough. It's also very dangerous to spray, dries very slowly, typically has lots of orange peel that's hard to cut down and get shiny again, very time consuming when used in automotive/motorcycle applications. And frankly, there are other paints available these days that are just as tough but far easier to apply. Imron for a motorcycle paint job is overkill, IMO.

-JW

[Boe Cole]

Pop up canopy from wally world

I'll remember that next time -- if there is a next time!!! 

It was fun in a way but still a lot of work and preparation.  Wanted to see if i could do it and have it come out good.  Did two tone (Black and Blue) with some graphics masked off and pinstriping.  Painted over it all with clearcoat with blue sparkly stuff over the blue and black.  Really came out neat with the sparkly stuff - not the big sparkles the moco has recently used on some bikes - just the really small stuff - almost too small to see but when used, does a great job of reflecting light.

[Hossamania]

JW, I don't know if this is an option for you but have you thought about getting your parts Powder Coated possibly ?

You mean like this?

[attach=0,msg1332166]

This is my '78 Ironhead. Everything on it that is black was powder coated. And yes, it turned out very nice, they buffed the tank and fenders and looks 'almost' as good as any top end paint job. Just a wee bit of orange peel that probably could be sanded out further if desired, but this is not a show bike so no need. The only problem with any polyester based powder coat is that even though tough as nails, it scratches easily. And because it's so shiny, they show if you get up close. Again, not a show bike so who cares.

Doing powder on this Softail project would not work. I don't see any practical way to replicate this with the powder process:

[attach=1,msg1332166]

They could probably do the base turquoise and white, but the decal would not take the curing heat, and it would still need to be pin striped and buried in clear. So why bother? Not sure how powder and paint react to one another either.

How bad is the paint job on it, chipped peeling or just lotsa swirls and scratchesand dull looking

In all honesty, for an almost 30 year old bike, it's in pretty good condition. An assortment of chips here and there from wear and tear, but from 20 feet away it looks great. What has a bug in my butt about it is that at sometime in it's past, somebody put a garage door down on the front fender and made a nasty dent. When I got it, I tried to knock it out a bit, cracking the paint in the process. Bob C says it's not that noticeable, and he's right about that. But "I" can see it.


You need to take note that I'm kind of a perfectionist when it comes to the appearance of my bikes. A personality flaw for sure. I like them to look like they rolled off the showroom floor. But for this Softail, is it going to be worth $5K to get that? I'm really struggling to answer that question.

So yes it has a dented front fender that I'd like to fix. It also has 4.25 gallon tanks, and I really prefer the 5.25 gallon, which I have a set of. How badly? Tough decision.

So I have two choices at this point. Ether stop the whining and fork over the cash to get it painted, or....  spend a bit more time on the front fender to get the rest of the dent out, touch it up (I can do that), touch up all the other little chips (been doing that), color sand/buff the whole thing, and call it "a survivor".

One comment about Imron, since it's come up. It was created back in the day as an industrial coating for trucks, big rigs, and locomotives, things that see lots of miles and wear and tear, and to look good at a distance not up close. Yes, it is very hard and tough. It's also very dangerous to spray, dries very slowly, typically has lots of orange peel that's hard to cut down and get shiny again, very time consuming when used in automotive/motorcycle applications. And frankly, there are other paints available these days that are just as tough but far easier to apply. Imron for a motorcycle paint job is overkill, IMO.

-JW

You didn't mention any dents at first. They're may be some other subtle dents that you don't see, but a good painter will. Those take time to work out, especially the big one, then filler, maybe even a complete cover and block sand of the fender with filler, maybe tanks and rear fender too. That all has to be sanded off, maybe a second application, more sanding, shoot it, mask it, shoot it again, sand it, apply the decal, pin stripes, shoot it with clear, many coats to protect and get rid of the decal and pinstripe ridges, wet sand the "Potty mouth" out of it, then polish it.
Piece of cake!

[Pete_Vit]

I keep thinking about Vice Grip Garage video on youtube, he did a bike using rattle can 

https://youtu.be/NRnOIvWZizQ