Author Topic: Shovel motor build advice....  (Read 1082 times)

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Offline yarddogg77

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2020, 10:21:31 AM »
We build/balance those cranks, using S&S Master Crankshaft Tooling.
Smooth as "buttah" once completed.
How much for a total rebuild and balance if needed? For the flywheels, not the whole motor.
You are equipped to remove the flywheels from the case... but Not check between centers for true????
Are you smoking? Anyone cane remove flywheels from the case with basic hand tools. Maybe I don't feel like building a truing stand, and buying a bunch of machining tools for balancing and truing and replacing rod bushings once every 10 years. You rebuild flywheels right?
My shop has a grass floor and really high ceiling... Yard - Dogg

Offline JW113

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2020, 10:54:16 AM »
Careful there. Once you split the case, the flywheel is held in the left case by the Timken bearings. You can't just turn the case over and pound the flywheels out with a hammer. There are specialty tools used or a large shop press.

RE: balance. If you think there is a problem with the flywheel assembly, start by doing a runout measurement. If both shafts are true to .002", then likely they are not scissored. Unless something really bad happened, I would not suspect this to be the case.

Burnout summed it up pretty good. V-twins vibrate, period. HD's mitigation that was to rubber mount the motor/trans. Rigid mounts will have chassis vibration, no way around it. Typical mitigation is to minimize the vibration (sweet spot) at highway cruise RPM, which tends to be near 3000 rpm. Above and below, vibes will be worse. My FLH is fairly smooth at 65mph. At 85, it's a paint shaker.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Offline yarddogg77

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2020, 11:07:07 AM »
Forgot about that bearing.
My shop has a grass floor and really high ceiling... Yard - Dogg

Offline david lee

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2020, 12:20:27 PM »
Careful there. Once you split the case, the flywheel is held in the left case by the Timken bearings. You can't just turn the case over and pound the flywheels out with a hammer. There are specialty tools used or a large shop press.

RE: balance. If you think there is a problem with the flywheel assembly, start by doing a runout measurement. If both shafts are true to .002", then likely they are not scissored. Unless something really bad happened, I would not suspect this to be the case.

Burnout summed it up pretty good. V-twins vibrate, period. HD's mitigation that was to rubber mount the motor/trans. Rigid mounts will have chassis vibration, no way around it. Typical mitigation is to minimize the vibration (sweet spot) at highway cruise RPM, which tends to be near 3000 rpm. Above and below, vibes will be worse. My FLH is fairly smooth at 65mph. At 85, it's a paint shaker.

-JW
what model is your flh. stock ?.a good cruizer ?

Offline Racepres

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2020, 12:27:40 PM »
Are you smoking? Anyone cane remove flywheels from the case with basic hand tools. Maybe I don't feel like building a truing stand, and buying a bunch of machining tools for balancing and truing and replacing rod bushings once every 10 years. You rebuild flywheels right?
Not yet... Too Early...and yes... I have done my share of Flywheels... from scratch ... Stock, S&S, and My Favorite...T&O..Balancing is tough for me... because I am Not meticulous enough.. But, I know that once Balanced...long as the changes to the Pistons rings wrist pin are Not Great... it stays Balanced..
True???? easily Checked... as stated check runout in the cases... but that is Not the whole story.. Once the Wheels are out of Both cases... even someone with a Lathe [with a large enough "throw"] can easily check true... Fixing is where it gets Intense!!!!
I still feel that you are chasing a Prophecy... but... if the Wheels were not torqued properly, the True could Shift!!!
again if that is suspected.... Simply Check them!!!! No Need to R&R if within spec to start with!!!!!
I do Not have an 80 pounder no more... but our local Indy does...and it only takes minutes to check!!!!!

Offline kd

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2020, 01:11:23 PM »
Are you smoking? Anyone cane remove flywheels from the case with basic hand tools. Maybe I don't feel like building a truing stand, and buying a bunch of machining tools for balancing and truing and replacing rod bushings once every 10 years. You rebuild flywheels right?
Not yet... Too Early...and yes... I have done my share of Flywheels... from scratch ... Stock, S&S, and My Favorite...T&O..Balancing is tough for me... because I am Not meticulous enough.. But, I know that once Balanced...long as the changes to the Pistons rings wrist pin are Not Great... it stays Balanced..
True???? easily Checked... as stated check runout in the cases... but that is Not the whole story.. Once the Wheels are out of Both cases... even someone with a Lathe [with a large enough "throw"] can easily check true... Fixing is where it gets Intense!!!!
I still feel that you are chasing a Prophecy... but... if the Wheels were not torqued properly, the True could Shift!!!
again if that is suspected.... Simply Check them!!!! No Need to R&R if within spec to start with!!!!!
I do Not have an 80 pounder no more... but our local Indy does...and it only takes minutes to check!!!!!

.... Orrrr, the tapers weren't super clean and bone dry with no oil residue (even off your fingers).  You shouldn't just loosen them off and start whacking them either.  It doesn't take much for a little oily bit or cleaning solution to migrate into the hole and contaminate the tapered seat for the pins. If that happens, you can expect problems again later.
KD

Offline capn

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #31 on: February 14, 2020, 03:35:29 PM »
Take the primary chain off ,plugs out,pushrods out and turn it over with a wrench and feel if it binds anywhere.

Offline yarddogg77

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #32 on: February 14, 2020, 06:18:31 PM »
Thanks guys.  :up: I'll get out there and whip it soon enough. Chasing some final electrical gremlins in my truck, then I will check it again. When I installed the primary belt drive I did a check on the shaft with a gauge and didn't see anything unusual. I'm probably going to gauge it from the cam side this time. I'm pretty sure that thing scissored on me that first night. If you had heard the pops and backfires and violent jerks that bike under went I think you would agree. It's good to know the journal should be bone dry during assembly, that is useful to know. I might just smoke a little too now.
My shop has a grass floor and really high ceiling... Yard - Dogg

Offline kd

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #33 on: February 14, 2020, 08:03:43 PM »
I should add that any oil film can allow the pin tapers to pull in too deep also.  That can be a real problem with con rod clearance too. You want full traction.
KD

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2020, 11:48:15 AM »
Guys,

Figured I better just weigh in here and I will start out by saying, yes, we (Darkhorse) are not the least expensive in the marketplace.  That being said, I know what my guys put into shovels, pans, knuckles, evo's, xl's - any 5 piece flywheel.  In all honesty, it takes us more time to balance, blueprint, assemble and true 5 piece crankshafts than a brand new M8 crankshaft or TwinCam. We have more $ into fixturing and presses for M8 and TC, product development, etc...  but strictly labor wise it takes longer to do a shovel properly. Starts by proper torque and truing pinionshaft and sprocketshaft to individual flywheel 1/2, blueprinting all bearing surfaces, bearings and conn rods.  We do not balance like any other (to my knowledge) and our level of accuracy is something we take great pride in.  We used the S&S balancing kit for many years in the 80s and I know for a fact our current method is more accurate.  It is also more accurate than using a Sunnen DB750 or similar type automotive balancer.  Then of course accuracy in final assembly.

That all being said, we have a dealer network that we make sure they have the ability to make a living wage and we will not undercut them or compete with them by lowering our retail price to meet someone's expectations.  Is our dealer price lower?  Well sure, Scott @ Hillside knows that,  I want him to be able to keep the lights on and make a living doing what he loves to do when he uses us for a TC or M8, I also want that same thing for 5 piece crankshafts. 

He (and some others that have been around for a while) would be a great resource as I know he has done them for a long, long time and I am sure he can produce a great reman.   crankshaft for you.  Knowing what I know though, I do not think I would take just guy who has been around for a while as I have seen some of those and some leave a little to be desired!

Not being difficult here, I just believe there are different levels of accuracy in any crankshaft and we only strive for the best here at Darkhorse, it will cost more than some, but then again, some will cost you in the long run.

John Dahmer, Owner & GM
Darkhorse Crankworks - Celebrating 40 years in 2020

Offline yarddogg77

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2020, 06:51:30 AM »
I'm glad you think to pay your people. I work in the trades and hate capitalism. I have always heard Darkhorse is the best in precision. I'm just not sure what this Shovel is worth to me. I have another bike I want to finish and this Shovel has cut into my time deeply. I think it might be worth more to me boxed up and listed on E-Bay. It has a lot of high dollar parts on it, and I really am not into the Baggers and FLH style bikes anyway, I like a bit of extra rake. I might have a TC flywheel set for you at Darkhorse depending on how well the local machinist did.
My shop has a grass floor and really high ceiling... Yard - Dogg

Offline Buglet

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2020, 07:22:19 AM »
   Darkhorse are you saying using the S&S balancing system is not worth doing an have you do it.

Online Reddog74usa

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2020, 08:14:35 AM »
I'm glad you think to pay your people. I work in the trades and hate capitalism. I have always heard Darkhorse is the best in precision. I'm just not sure what this Shovel is worth to me. I have another bike I want to finish and this Shovel has cut into my time deeply. I think it might be worth more to me boxed up and listed on E-Bay. It has a lot of high dollar parts on it, and I really am not into the Baggers and FLH style bikes anyway, I like a bit of extra rake. I might have a TC flywheel set for you at Darkhorse depending on how well the local machinist did.


Well Dogg let me tell ya. If you think the Shovel is going to get real involved I believe you should just pack it up and piece it out or just sell as is. I picked up a 68 basket case back in June to restore. It was a frame up total build with top quality made in USA parts like Rivera, S&S and Velva Touch.

The cost of doing these bikes has become way past stupid. I thought I scored a hell of a deal on the bike at 3500 bucks but after, and only after I started to go down the build stage I came to realize this basket case was no deal at all. It NEEDED EVERYTHING and was the worst cobbled bike I had ever seen and it took me over 11 grand to make the bike right which is stupid ridiculous and I did all the work myself except the bottom end and some machine work. In the end it took me 9 months of my time and over 11K but now that it's finished I know what I have and she turned out just the way I wanted it to. By the time I found out how much prices had gone way up it was to late as I was already past the point of no return and had I known just how bad the bike had been cobbled and how much it would cost to do the build I would not have done it and just parted it out. At least I'm lucky to have a genny Shovel in the end but you should really think about investing so much time and money in a cone motor Shovel.

Now if it's something you just gotta have go fer it. For me, the high cost and lack of ability to source good parts has made this the last frame up build I'll do. Man I never thought I'd say those words but here I am sayin it. Good luck in your decision, just take the time and make it the right for YOU.
RIDE IT LIKE YA STOLE IT

Offline yarddogg77

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2020, 08:41:07 AM »
That's exactly the way I'm thinking. I've already tore it down to the frame once, it looks good. It has a lot of good parts, but in the end, it's just not what I really want to ride. I can appreciate the FLH's, but I like my chopper project. As far as dollars, the only thing I spent money on was the primary belt drive kit. I was able to sell the drum rear wheel and swing arm, pus an expensive era incorrect front wheel off of it and buy the wheels and brake parts I have now. Switched it to a rear disk because I will not have a drummy, I already had some shovel era fork lowers to return the front end back to it's era. So I returned the front end to shovel with dual disks, and modernized the rear half. Now I can change the rear sprocket size which it needed with the final output of the 5 speed. I'm gonna have to think about it hard. I do like the bike, but my chopper must be finished first. I don't need two projects.
My shop has a grass floor and really high ceiling... Yard - Dogg

Offline jeffscycle

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2020, 09:54:05 AM »
  From what I'm reading & interpreting, I'd be on the side of drop kicking the project too. No offence, but you really don't seem to be ready for this. Old "Potty mouth" takes a lot of time & LOTS of Money, and in todays market, $5k can buy you a relative cream puff of a newer bike. We didn't even start to talk about loose case races, over machined heads, boogered breather hole, ectů. So lick your wounds, figure out What you'll take for a price (and probably lose $), tell the buyer all you know, and move on to get a good nights sleep.
'01 FXDXT, '99 FXDL/XRD, '76 FLH

Offline turboprop

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2020, 10:04:46 AM »
Lets see some picks of this money pit.
Q. What is the best _____?
A. Whatever YOU have

Offline Racepres

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2020, 11:30:01 AM »
Lets see some picks of this money pit.
Me Too... lets get a peek!!

Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2020, 11:57:40 AM »
I am not saying S&S kit is bad, just not as accurate as the way we balance in house. FYI - to my knowledge and last time I was there, S&S does not balance in house using their static balance kit available on line.  The level of accuracy in all the methods is impossible to get in 1 post and measurement is in inch/ounces or mm/grams and accuracy & given tolerances of those simple measurements will be debated by those in the balance world.  It all comes down to how accurate do you need to be, how you measure accuracy and time it takes to get there. 

I know we spend a lot of time to be as accurate as possible as this is not a hobby of ours, I eat, sleep and breath it every day and in our eyes we can only do it to the best of our abilities and knowledge

Cost & value to do it to a shovel can only be determined by the guy balancing it (cost) and the owner of the bike (value).

Thanks, John

Offline Racepres

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2020, 02:24:06 PM »
I am not saying S&S kit is bad, just not as accurate as the way we balance in house. FYI - to my knowledge and last time I was there, S&S does not balance in house using their static balance kit available on line.  The level of accuracy in all the methods is impossible to get in 1 post and measurement is in inch/ounces or mm/grams and accuracy & given tolerances of those simple measurements will be debated by those in the balance world.  It all comes down to how accurate do you need to be, how you measure accuracy and time it takes to get there. 

I know we spend a lot of time to be as accurate as possible as this is not a hobby of ours, I eat, sleep and breath it every day and in our eyes we can only do it to the best of our abilities and knowledge

Cost & value to do it to a shovel can only be determined by the guy balancing it (cost) and the owner of the bike (value).

Thanks, John

Now ya done it... everybody will now know why I have my Partner do all that ... I am Not nearly as meticulous
The Best, Costs..

Offline crock

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2020, 04:46:43 AM »
You gotta wanna a shovel ! In my experience you can buy a running motorcycle (EVO) for less than a good shovel MOTOR build. I have about 6k in the motor(98") not counting trans work and paint and upgraded electrical system etc. It s a passion.
Crock

Offline david lee

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2020, 12:21:45 PM »
Yes, that is the bottom line. I probably have $11K in mine as well (nosecone motor). You guys think restoring a Shovelhead is expensive, try in Indian!

Ask yourself this: Generator Shovelhead FLH, what's the difference between that and 1965 Panhead? Other than the Shovel has better heads and more power? A '65 Pan would be a pretty sweet ride, no? So why not an early Shovel? It's purt near the same damn bike!

I tell ya Yarddog, if I had space in my garage, I'd buy it from ya right now. Of course if I did, the wife would have it out on the street with a FREE sign!

-JW
gotta keep the wife happy or you would be on the street too

Offline Burnout

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2020, 03:39:50 PM »
HEY!

I spent enough just making it go forward.....    :banghead:
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Offline 76shuvlinoff

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Re: Shovel motor build advice....
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2020, 02:44:27 AM »
Guys just keep any talk of pricing or selling to private messages or list you goods in swap.  Not saying anyone is doing that here but the thread is walking up to edge.

 Thanks
 Mark
Being defenseless does not make you more safe.