103 cams - again

[Finn]

Parcel is already in a flight container waiting at Miami airport and it is impossible to get it from there or to cancel the order. Mine is not the only delayed overseas shipment.

My dealer has Andrews 48 in stock but this CR570-2 is bought and paid for so it is just a matter of waiting for it to arrive. With my luck it is November or something. 

[Ohio HD]

Finn, would you be better to use the Andrews cams and then sell the 570 cams when they show up? I own a set of 48's in a 96", they run out really good.

The 96" is stock except the cams, stage one breather and D&D exhaust.

The first run was with the base MAP from DJ.

Consider as well the chart is SAE, which will show less than if displayed in DIN. And I understand the torque after you explained the Kn reading.


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,98936.msg1155981.html#msg1155981

[jls 64]

 instal the 48 you will like it

[WhipLash96]

Just my opinion, I would stay within a 25 to 30 degree intake closing with a stock motor to insure decent compression.



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You could also use a cam with an even lower intake closing event to help increase compression. Example, one could use the the S&S 583 in a 103 and achieve around 9.8 corrected compression. That event starts at 18 degrees. As stated already, a million ways to skin a cat.

[Appowner]

We get shipments daily from Italy and Austria, as well we ship items to them. Time to ship between USA and Europe hasn't changed.

I ordered some hobby stuff from the UK.  Royal Mail had it in Chicago in 3 days.  Chicago USPS claims to have processed it on 10 May.  Nothing since.  Tracking shows it still in Chicago.  3rd time this year for me.

[Herko]

...and then sell the 570 cams when they show up? I own a set of 48's in a 96", they run out really good.

Finn.
Waiting for your 570-2 cams to arrive...worth the wait.
They are certainly not a slacker in a 96 and really shine in a 103.

96 with 570-2 cams: 
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,112717.0.html

Too many Dyno examples of 570-2 cams in 103s to count in the Dyno section.

[Ohio HD]

I've never personally used 48"s in a 103", but in a 96" I would use 48's all day. The torque and HP starts a little sooner. Has more where you're riding when in slow speed traffic, or just pulling away. The earlier intake closing I'm sure attributes to this in part. The rest of the RPM range it's something you would never feel ridding it, a few values either way of torque and HP. 48's also cost less for those looking to maximize their dollars to upgrade.

Two different dyno's different exhaust, and there is only any real difference in the lower end.


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[Buglet]

  It sure look like the 48's are the way to go for ever day riding unless you chasing HP.

[chipthedonkey]

I've got 48s in a 98" build on a Road King that went up from its original 88".  Comes in early and pulls a long time.  It's a nice cam.  Not a hot rod piece but a really nice riding cam.

[sharkoilfield]

 [attach=0]
Just throwing another dyno in here; a SE 103 kit and S&S 583 E-Z starts on an '08 96 inch.  Very tractable; used for touring. I have E-Z starts in my bike and the wife's; nice after a gas stop in 100 degree heat. No comp releases to fuss with.

[Don D]

Andrew's 48 13/29 43/15 .548 Cr570-2 14/32 50/0 .570 .560

[Finn]

Christmas came early this year. But no workshop time available until mid-August. 

[sfmichael]

  

[Hossamania]

Yup, I think you'll like them. A friend just put them in with a proper tune, big smiles all around.

[Finn]

Update on this case:

We did all sorts of things at my dealer on Tuesday and Wednesday. CR570-2 are now in with S&S lifters. Bike had S&S Stealth air cleaner already as well as Supertrapp Supermeg 2-1 with 'guesstimated' 25 discs and closed end cap.

We got a Power vision map from Dynojet and used that as starting point. Took us a while to adjust fuelling and so on but after a bit of Auto tuning etc. we were quite satisfied with the AFR across the rpm range. We started with 30 discs in Supermeg.

What was a bit strange is that it made about 90 horses from the start but changes in VE tables or timing or adding discs had very little if any effect on the numbers.

We even tested with just the Supermeg core and no discs but naturally that killed torque and made no extra horses. We ended with 35 discs and closed end cap.

Final numbers are 90 horses @ about 5000 rpm. Torque is about 107 lb-ft (cannot remember rpm)

I feel this is perhaps 5...7 horses down on power but then again the way it pulls from 2500 it does put a wide  on my face.

I'm in principle OK with the numbers, it is just that it did not react much to changes. I'm wondering a bit if the Supermeg is choking it or if the map just was quite close from the start.

[sfmichael]

not everyone has access to a truly comprehensive tune / tuner

I have a 2013 Street Glide that was built with SE204's / exhaust / air cleaner etc

It made 90hp / 105tq and I LOVED it - it ran fantastic

A truly gifted tuner might have gotten another 5 / 5 out of it but just like you, that motor put a big smile on my face every time I rode it

Congrats!! 

[rauchman]

TW-222 was recommended to me and it seems very popular and produces good numbers - as do many other cams.

Do the TW-222 tend to be noisy?

My bike (2013 FLD) has a stage 1, otherwise stock.  I just recently replaced a set of Andrews 57H cams with the Woods 222's.  The 57's were great when cruising at 3k rpm on up, and would pull to redline.  I found them lacking on the low end.  They also ran a bit rough, but I would guess a better tune would rectify that.

The Woods 222's, are very smooth.  Transformed my Dyna into something approaching the smoothness of a touring bike.  Also, the bike now has pull from as low as 1600 rpm, at 2500rpm it's really in the meat of the rev range and pulls well to 4500rpm and is done by 5000rpm.  I miss the higher rev performance of the 57's, but overall I find the 222's much more agreeable to how I ride and much more livable.

From the research I had done, the Andrews 48 and CR-570-2 are very similar in dyno charts.  Went with the 222's over the others in quest of finding a smidge more zing based on dyno charts I've seen, but I think I would be just as happy with the other 2 options listed.  Ultimately, very happy with the 222's.  If I was willing to do headwork and increase compression, i would have stayed with the 57's.

As for noise, I adjusted the push roads to about .135, and my valve train is spooky quiet.

[PoorUB]

Andrews 57's need a bit of a compression  bump to work well. Andrews says up to 10.3 to 1 IIRC. But I ran them at 10.5 and it really wakes them up. I wouldn't  put them in a stock compression engine.

[Adam76]

not everyone has access to a truly comprehensive tune / tuner

I have a 2013 Street Glide that was built with SE204's / exhaust / air cleaner etc

It made 90hp / 105tq and I LOVED it - it ran fantastic

A truly gifted tuner might have gotten another 5 / 5 out of it but just like you, that motor put a big smile on my face every time I rode it

Congrats!! 

Hey sfmichael,  l remember you posting about your 103" se204 build a few years ago. Your results still impress me! 

Can you tell us again what your exact set up was with those cams?  You know, all the supporting  components that all work together to make the end result?

Thanks. 

[sfmichael]

Adam the recipe was brand a new 2013 Street Glide 103, Cycle Shack header, Kuryakyn Crusher mufflers (not the mellows - regular Crushers), SE204 cams, SE air cleaner with stock cover, SEPST / SE Pro Tuner tuned at Apol's HD in Alexandria, MN.

I used SE cams in order to protect my 2 year warranty and had all the initial work done at the selling dealer for the same reason. I was delighted with the results and have been working on improving it but have come up snake eyes on my second attempt. Should have left it alone.

2nd build was/is Andrews 54 cams +4* with ported heads and throttle body. Feels good, but not noticeably better. Not happy with return on investment 2nd time.
Switched to PowerVision later to try different tunes but no significant power increase felt. In fairness hadn't done dyno tune but decided I was going farther so just bailed on this build, so to speak.

3rd build will be 110 CID drop on kit with TMan 590 cams, different heads, and PowerVision dyno tune. The reason I didn't dyno the 2nd build is I have no competent tuner in my city or anywhere close by. 3rd build I will drag the bike 600-1000 miles to a known good tuner. Still deciding on that destination.

Although out of favor now, the SE204 cams made me smile every time I rode it. And I still smile (the 54's run very well) I just smile with a lighter wallet  
Hoping the third build will be the last, but if I don't like it I'll try another set of cams.

Thanks for asking

[Adam76]

Adam the recipe was brand a new 2013 Street Glide 103, Cycle Shack header, Kuryakyn Crusher mufflers (not the mellows - regular Crushers), SE204 cams, SE air cleaner with stock cover, SEPST / SE Pro Tuner tuned at Apol's HD in Alexandria, MN.

I used SE cams in order to protect my 2 year warranty and had all the initial work done at the selling dealer for the same reason. I was delighted with the results and have been working on improving it but have come up snakes eyes on my second attempt. Should have left it alone.

2nd build was/is Andrews 54 cams +4* with ported heads and throttle body. Feels good, but not noticeably better. Not happy with return on investment 2nd time.
Switched to PowerVision later to try different tunes but no significant power increase felt. In fairness hadn't done dyno tune but decided I was going farther so just bailed on this build, so to speak.

3rd build will be 110 CID drop on kit with TMan 590 cams, different heads, and PowerVision dyno tune. The reason I didn't dyno the 2nd build is I have no competent tuner in my city or anywhere close by. 3rd build I will drag the bike 600-1000 miles to a known good tuner. Still deciding on that destination.

Although out of favor now, the SE204 cams made me smile every time I rode it. And I still smile (the 54's run very well) I just smile with a lighter wallet  
Hoping the third build will be the last, but if I don't like it I'll try another set of cams.

Thanks for asking

Hey, thanks for the reply and the detailed info. That 204 recipe is pretty simple and low cost compared to some other options. Great usable power too.

That's a shame about the second build and money spent not for much gain. I think we've all been there at one point or another...  I wonder what the 57 would have been like in that build instead of the 54?

Anyways, the 110" drop on build sounds good. What compression are you going to end up with?

Cheers.

[Finn]

Adam the recipe was brand a new 2013 Street Glide 103, Cycle Shack header, Kuryakyn Crusher mufflers (not the mellows - regular Crushers), SE204 cams, SE air cleaner with stock cover, SEPST / SE Pro Tuner tuned at Apol's HD in Alexandria, MN.

What sort of numbers did this recipe produce, if you do not mind me asking?

[sfmichael]

Adam the recipe was brand a new 2013 Street Glide 103, Cycle Shack header, Kuryakyn Crusher mufflers (not the mellows - regular Crushers), SE204 cams, SE air cleaner with stock cover, SEPST / SE Pro Tuner tuned at Apol's HD in Alexandria, MN.

I used SE cams in order to protect my 2 year warranty and had all the initial work done at the selling dealer for the same reason. I was delighted with the results and have been working on improving it but have come up snakes eyes on my second attempt. Should have left it alone.

2nd build was/is Andrews 54 cams +4* with ported heads and throttle body. Feels good, but not noticeably better. Not happy with return on investment 2nd time.
Switched to PowerVision later to try different tunes but no significant power increase felt. In fairness hadn't done dyno tune but decided I was going farther so just bailed on this build, so to speak.

3rd build will be 110 CID drop on kit with TMan 590 cams, different heads, and PowerVision dyno tune. The reason I didn't dyno the 2nd build is I have no competent tuner in my city or anywhere close by. 3rd build I will drag the bike 600-1000 miles to a known good tuner. Still deciding on that destination.

Although out of favor now, the SE204 cams made me smile every time I rode it. And I still smile (the 54's run very well) I just smile with a lighter wallet  
Hoping the third build will be the last, but if I don't like it I'll try another set of cams.

Thanks for asking

Hey, thanks for the reply and the detailed info. That 204 recipe is pretty simple and low cost compared to some other options. Great usable power too.

That's a shame about the second build and money spent not for much gain. I think we've all been there at one point or another...  I wonder what the 57 would have been like in that build instead of the 54?

Anyways, the 110" drop on build sounds good. What compression are you going to end up with?

Cheers.

Adam shooting for about 10.8/9:1 static @ sea level - on the high side for that cam but I live at 6000' and will lose considerable cranking compression because of that factor. It cranks over 200ccp here now and can ping easily on warm days or if not ridden carefully. If I build it for this elevation it would be hardly rideable at sea level I would imagine. My current combo would likely crank 225-235 @ sea level. It's very snappy and responsive.
So much of this engine building involves trade-offs or compromise. :-/

[sfmichael]

Adam the recipe was brand a new 2013 Street Glide 103, Cycle Shack header, Kuryakyn Crusher mufflers (not the mellows - regular Crushers), SE204 cams, SE air cleaner with stock cover, SEPST / SE Pro Tuner tuned at Apol's HD in Alexandria, MN.

What sort of numbers did this recipe produce, if you do not mind me asking?

Finn it made an unimpressive 90hp / 105 tq but for me I thought it was great. Built and tuned at 1400' the bike ran fantastic. Not bragging numbers but honest numbers I feel. Might have made more at a "super tuner" shop, but that wasn't an option. I felt the selling dealer did an excellent job. Couldn't have been more pleased. It made lots of torque early and pulled hard to 5000+ rpm. It's a combination I would definitely recommend. And given the fact that it needed to be a HD cam to retain warranty it was definitely the best choice available at the time for a stock compression engine.

[Adam76]

Adam the recipe was brand a new 2013 Street Glide 103, Cycle Shack header, Kuryakyn Crusher mufflers (not the mellows - regular Crushers), SE204 cams, SE air cleaner with stock cover, SEPST / SE Pro Tuner tuned at Apol's HD in Alexandria, MN.

What sort of numbers did this recipe produce, if you do not mind me asking?

Finn it made an unimpressive 90hp / 105 tq but for me I thought it was great. Built and tuned at 1400' the bike ran fantastic. Not bragging numbers but honest numbers I feel. Might have made more at a "super tuner" shop, but that wasn't an option. I felt the selling dealer did an excellent job. Couldn't have been more pleased. It made lots of torque early and pulled hard to 5000+ rpm. It's a combination I would definitely recommend. And given the fact that it needed to be a HD cam to retain warranty it was definitely the best choice available at the time for a stock compression engine.

I don't think that's an "unimpressive" result for a cams only upgrade, especially as SE cam that kept your warranty!
I did cams on a 2014 heritage, S&S MR103s and tuned with power vision. Made 85/80 only, so your 105/90 numbers are not too bad. Then again my true dual pipes weren't helping that build 🙄