o2 conversion question

[nc-renegade]

Getting ready this week to convert my 05 Delphi ECM to an 07.  Got all the sensor parts coming in this Tuesday, thanks to a list provided by Ram.

If I load a 176 map (using TTS) and I do not have o2 sensors hooked up and I set all the 14.6 AFR points to another value, will the ECU function okay?  Will it throw a code, but still function okay?

Regards,
NC

[Herko]

If I load a 176 map (using TTS) and I do not have o2 sensors hooked up and I set all the 14.6 AFR points to another value, will the ECU function okay?  Will it throw a code, but still function okay?

Not sure with other than 14.6 set in.
It may still throw a code due to the ECU looking for the sensors to give lightoff and feedback info even though in Open Loop per less than 14.6 set in everywhere.

OE Closed Loop conversion is a very worthwhile endeavor IMO.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some notes from the past few weeks for project here:


Fri 08 May 2009:

2004 (two thousand four) RKC Touring now operating in Closed Loop with OE switching sensors.
Using a borrowed ECU from a 2007 Touring.
The OE original 2004 TSSM did a password learn and all looks OK there.

Upon first start up did a O2 data run and sensors heated, lit off, then toggled normally.
Then flashed a PZ176-002-B1.MT7 with appropriate changes in the Tuning Constants etc.
Started up, did an O2 data run and sensors heated, lit off, then toggled normally.

Took for a test ride:
Speedo works good
Cruise works good
Turn signals work good
Turn signals self-cancel good
No codes of any kind.

Post test ride:
Did a short VTune data run...all worked well. Good Histogram pattern/coloring etc.

Plans.
Soon will try yet another suffix -05 p/n ECU with the bike's (04 RKC) original VIN flashed in and repeat steps above.

Finding: Looks afterall like we have the right electrics (1850 bus) to allow the '04's to convert as well.
This was on a bike that came with a suffix -04 p/n ECU from the factory fwiw.

Update 13 May 2009.
Installed the -05C ECU with the bike's actual 2004 VIN flashed.
The OE original 2004 TSSM did a password learn and all looks OK there.

Tried the PZ176 cal flash on the -05C ECU with the 2004 VIN flashed.
Rec'd a VIN block error message and would not let the 176 cal load.
Steve Cole is looking to work this out though.


Per telecon Thur 21 May 2009:
MT7 176 Cals will flash on to suffix -05 p/n ECU's using MT v132 as long as bike is a 2005 or 2006 M.Y. (2007 too of course)
Looking forward to the 2004 VIN block to be worked out.

[nc-renegade]

Some notes from the past few weeks for project here:


Fri 08 May 2009:

2004 (two thousand four) RKC Touring now operating in Closed Loop with OE switching sensors.
Using a borrowed ECU from a 2007 Touring.
The OE original 2004 TSSM did a password learn and all looks OK there.

Upon first start up did a O2 data run and sensors heated, lit off, then toggled normally.
Then flashed a PZ176-002-B1.MT7 with appropriate changes in the Tuning Constants etc.
Started up, did an O2 data run and sensors heated, lit off, then toggled normally.

Took for a test ride:
Speedo works good
Cruise works good
Turn signals work good
Turn signals self-cancel good
No codes of any kind.

Post test ride:
Did a short VTune data run...all worked well. Good Histogram pattern/coloring etc.

Plans.
Soon will try yet another suffix -05 p/n ECU with the bike's (04 RKC) original VIN flashed in and repeat steps above.

Finding: Looks afterall like we have the right electrics (1850 bus) to allow the '04's to convert as well.
This was on a bike that came with a suffix -04 p/n ECU from the factory fwiw.

Update 13 May 2009.
Installed the -05C ECU with the bike's actual 2004 VIN flashed.
The OE original 2004 TSSM did a password learn and all looks OK there.

Tried the PZ176 cal flash on the -05C ECU with the 2004 VIN flashed.
Rec'd a VIN block error message and would not let the 176 cal load.
Steve Cole is looking to work this out though.


Per telecon Thur 21 May 2009:
MT7 176 Cals will flash on to suffix -05 p/n ECU's using MT v132 as long as bike is a 2005 or 2006 M.Y. (2007 too of course)
Looking forward to the 2004 VIN block to be worked out.

Closed Loop rocks.

Excellent info Herko!  Thanks!

My ECM is an 05 and I have been successful loading in the 176 data file a while back (using the SERT) so I am hopeful the ECM will read the o2 sensors once I install them.  I went back to the 127 map, I just wanted to see if I could get the 176 map loaded in.

I plan to load in the 176 map file tonight and check my VE's with the wideband sensors I have installed now.  I plan to set the AFR to 13.5 for now.   (I have a digital speedometer that reads both F and R AFRs from the widebands off the serial bus).  I will then remove the wideband ones this week after my parts arrive for the narrowband.

Yes, proper close loop operation is very good.  This is one of the reasons I've liked the T-Max.  FWIW, I have notice a big difference in the performance between the T-Max and Delphi, with the T-Max delivering much better idle and throttle response.  Of course, I am using a SERT map that has not been optimized on a dyno for my build, but the AFR's look good.

I am really looking forward to installing the narrowband o2 and using the Vtune to tune the bike in.  I also plan to use Mytune by ToBeFrank cause it will look at the timing and provide help there.  Once I am done, T-Man Performance is going to use my bike at their "Tune the Tuner Class" in June; so I know it will get a real good tune then.  (Very curious on the difference between Brian K's tuning and Vtune and Mytune).

Thanks for the info!

Regards,
NC

[Herko]

NCR.
Thought it would be good to post what I found so far. I've recd mixed reviews and experiences about OE CL conversion via calls and emails etc. Successful conversions can be had. Looks like we're going to have at least 3 model years now (04,05 06) that will convert with with relatively minimal work and parts used. 04's requiring the updated p/n ECU of course.

I think some of the disappointments with these conversions has possibly stemmed from the lack of detail and precision devoted to the additional wiring and connections required.

Smooth running and performance:
As you know, with the higher featured/functional tuning systems, the quality of smooth running and good performance is directly proportional to the quality, patience and knowledge of the tuning procedures incorporated during the tune.

BTW, from your posts, your bike looks to be a 2005?? Touring, Softail?

[nc-renegade]

BTW, from your posts, your bike looks to be a 2005?? Touring, Softail?

I have an 05 Softail Deluxe with 06 tin and 07 frame and built engine....LOL, don't you just love cagers that run you over?  Aways good for new parts.


My ECM took the 176 flash just fine.  I will wire the 02s this week and you are right, got to pay attention to the details.

I plan to post what I observe this week, especially with the Vtune.  I also plan to take a lot of photos and place the info on harleyhog site.

Regards,
NC

[Don D]

When we did this as a trial before the sensors were wired we had no codes, that was waskier1 bike 06 SG

[nc-renegade]

When we did this as a trial before the sensors were wired we had no codes, that was waskier1 bike 06 SG

I showed no codes as well.  Much better starting characteristics.

[nc-renegade]

I added the o2 sensors today, ohm'd out all the wiring from connector pin to connector pin (all good) and loaded in PG176 map.  Unfortunately, my ECU does not see the o2 sensors, so I'm back to where I was with the SERT.  Hopefully, TTS will find out what's going on with these units to bring sense to it.

I have the o2 sensors wired:
Rear Sensor pin 1 going to pin 8 on ECU
Front Sensor pin 1 going to pin 23 on ECU
GND pins 2 going to pin 26 on ECU (Connects in with IAT sensor ground)

Regards,
NC

[Ram]

NC,
Very sorry to hear of the news your o2's are not active in the ECM!

I'm still pending on firing up my '06 with the TTS.  Mine is already with the o2's wired and ready to program.

Have been just way to busy at work to do anything with my bike after getting home doing several home projects as well.

Hoping that mine will be seen when I get the time to do some tuning. 

Also hope we hear some good news from Steve Cole and Company if they have had any positive results with their development of an '05 and '06 closed loop (as the '07's) calibration!

Your wiring is 'spot' on with that of what is reflected in the '07 FSM manual.  Which is also the same as mine!

Ram

[Herko]

"Rear Sensor pin 1 going to pin 8 on ECU
Front Sensor pin 1 going to pin 23 on ECU"

Typo...lysdexia...or bad info maybe?? Got a book? 
May not matter for DM to see sensors but books show pin 8 is front and pin 23 is rear.
What "type" data was selected for data run?
Using TTST?
Quality connections on pin crimps?
Sensors known to be good?

[Ram]

Herko is right, I'm sorry that I didn't catch that. (one of the reasons I've not messed with mine yet, just too tired to pay attention well enough this late at night) It is 8 to front and 23 to rear (both tagging pins 1 of o2).

I've got the pdf handy if I can figure out how to post it?

[Herko]

"Also hope we hear some good news from Steve Cole and Company if they have had any positive results with their development of an '05 and '06 closed loop (as the '07's) calibration!"

MT v132/133 should enable this.
Only remaining glitch is if VIN is a 2004.
2005 and 2006 VIN's should work in closed loop with 176 cals if proper wiring is in place.

[Herko]

Ram, yep, easy to get crosseyed with this small print stuff lol.
Noticed my 06 Softail Manual did not have verbiage adjacent those pins.
The 09 Softail Diag shows them though. Same 36 pin ECU.

[Ram]

Ram, yep, easy to get crosseyed with this small print stuff lol.

Is true, just hope that NC does not have any issues backing out the pins for a swap?

[nc-renegade]

"Rear Sensor pin 1 going to pin 8 on ECU
Front Sensor pin 1 going to pin 23 on ECU"

Typo...lysdexia...or bad info maybe?? Got a book?  
May not matter for DM to see sensors but books show pin 8 is front and pin 23 is rear.
What "type" data was selected for data run?
Using TTST?
Quality connections on pin crimps?
Sensors known to be good?

My EDM manual for the 2007 softail shows the front going to pin 23 and rear going to pin 8???

I used the AMP tool to crimp and I ohm'd them out, the connections are good.  Sensor??? They are new, fresh from Harley.  I am using Mastertune V133.  What kind of data was selected for data run?  I do not know what TTST is.

Edit:  I verified that the EDM manual shows the front going to pin 23....but then I checked the 2007 service manual and guess what? Yep, it shows the opposite!!!  So which one is right?

[nc-renegade]

Ram, yep, easy to get crosseyed with this small print stuff lol.

Is true, just hope that NC does not have any issues backing out the pins for a swap?

No big deal changing them.  Just concerned that the EDM shows different connections than the service manual.  You would think the EDM would be right!

Checked my VIN and this is the info gotten back:
World region:North America
Manufactured in:USA
Year:2005
Make:Harley-davidson
Model:FLSTNI = Touring
Body style:Road / Street
Drive type:RWD
Cylinders:2 Cylinders
Engine type:Fuel-injected Big twin

[Scotty]

My 2007 Softail EDM shows pin 8 as the front O2 sensor   

[nc-renegade]

Hi Scotty,
Now that you referenced that diagram, I just checked and my 5-47 does as well, unfortunately I used the diagram found on pages 4-4 and 4-25.  They show the opposite.

I will swap the pins around.  BUT that will not solve the problem of not my ECM not seeing them.  I think I will insert my meter in place of one of the sensors and see if I am getting a current flow.


Edit: here is the diagram in Section 4, Engine Management:



I found this diagram to be easier to read than the one in section 5.  It's a shame it is wrong.

[Herko]

SM's and EDM's have matched here too...8 front, 23 rear.

NCR, you may already be there with ECU seeing the O2 sensors.
TTST = TTSTuner.
What are you using for O2 sensor recognition?
DataMaster (DM) is best way for this initially IMO.
Tells that all is working as advertised...or not
DM v132 is now current.
Has its own Help Files too.
Well worth a print and read.

See attachment for example of Data "Types".

[attachment removed after 60 days by system]

[Herko]

If it'll help, drop me an email and we can maybe trouble shoot this some on the phone.
Cheers.

[nc-renegade]

Hi Herko,
I appreciate all your help!  I swapped the pins in the Packard connector... this is the one connector that I like; very easy to take pins out.

Fired up the bike and went to Datamaster and record Vtune data.  I selected generic O2 sensors and they appeared.  Now for the bad part.  My front sensor worked fine, but my back one never got below 2060 mV.  I swapped the front and rear sensors and got the same results.  So I ohm'd out my connections again and got .2 to .3 ohms for continuity (very good connections)....but I decided to go ahead and change the amp pin connectors at the rear sensor.  Put new ones on and again got the same readings.
This is were it got bad.  In my haste, I did not connect the o2 sensors back up and left one of my pin extenders (wire) sticking out of the front connector.  I started the engine and it ran very bad.  Checked my codes and had three, high temp sensor voltage and two others that I do not have in front of me.  Anyway, it looks like I fried my sensor A-D converter.  Can't understand how an unconnected pin with a wire sticking out would of done this, no different than the unconnected connector.

Perhaps the hi reading from the rear sensor was an early indication something was going bad and starting it up with the wire hanging out might of been enough to induce voltage to take out the channel.  I don't know, but now I have to decide what to do.  I already have a SERT and TTS married to this ECU and I certainly do not want to buy another dongle and ECU.

I put my T-Max back on for now until I decide what to do.

[flhtci2006]

Can you post that parts list or tell me where it is?  I'm getting ready to do this same project on a 06 FLFTCI only I'll be moving away from the PCIII.

Thanks much.

[cts1950]

Perhaps the hi reading from the rear sensor was an early indication something was going bad and starting it up with the wire hanging out might of been enough to induce voltage to take out the channel.  I don't know, but now I have to decide what to do.  I already have a SERT and TTS married to this ECU and I certainly do not want to buy another dongle and ECU.

I put my T-Max back on for now until I decide what to do.

I am not sure but is you buy a blank ecm from your dealer and have the vin of your old ecm is burnt into the replacement, It is my impression that would allow your dongle to work with the replacement ecm. If I am wrong I am certain Steve will correct my mistake.

[nc-renegade]

Perhaps the hi reading from the rear sensor was an early indication something was going bad and starting it up with the wire hanging out might of been enough to induce voltage to take out the channel.  I don't know, but now I have to decide what to do.  I already have a SERT and TTS married to this ECU and I certainly do not want to buy another dongle and ECU.

I put my T-Max back on for now until I decide what to do.

I am not sure but is you buy a blank ecm from your dealer and have the vin of your old ecm is burnt into the replacement, It is my impression that would allow your dongle to work with the replacement ecm. If I am wrong I am certain Steve will correct my mistake.

According to Steve, I will need to have the new blank ECU programed by the dealer with the VIN and initial map.  I then will send the new and old ECU and TTS dongle to TTS to have it transferred.

Regards,
NC

[05FLHTC]

WOW you guys are way in there deep. Hope you get it figured out, sure is a huge amount of knowledge being shared that's way over my head   


I'll stick with me Super G for a while longer, barely have a clue how that works

[Don D]

Please list the part number for the o2 sensors and what are you guys doing for wiring. I helped a guy and we used a couple ACR harnesses for the pin connections, got to be an easier less expensive way.
TIA

[nc-renegade]

Please list the part number for the o2 sensors and what are you guys doing for wiring. I helped a guy and we used a couple ACR harnesses for the pin connections, got to be an easier less expensive way.
TIA

Here is a list that Ram sent me:

2 ea....72007-05.........Housing Socket
4 ea....72006-05.........Socket, terminal
2 ea....72076-00.........Pins
4 ea....72011-05.........Wire seal, #16-20 AWG/Yellow
2 ea....27683-07.........o2 Sensors

Both he and I used 20 AWG stranded copper wire with silver plating covered in teflon jacket for hook up to ECM.  Make a two pair cable from the hook-up wire and twist them in a drill..... I went 5 turns per inch.  Then use heat shrink to keep it together and protect the wire when you make your runs.

I used the TYCO/AMP pin / socket crimpers tool to make my connections, though careful use of needlenose plyers would work as well.

I got the parts at Zanotti's for $98 total (including shipping).  The wire is very expensive for the 100' I bought, which I got from Digikey.  Perhaps Radio Shack has smaller quanities or standard auto hook-up wire would work just as well.

[blkfalc4]

Awsome NC, thanks a bunch bro.
Been doing some reading on this, but no definitive way of going about it.
I'll be using Belden twisted shielded. I'm an EE and have plenty of this stuff around.
Good Luck in this endeavor NC

Mike

[Herko]

FWIW HD uses type TXL wire and is typical in many automotive harnesses.
I used TXL 18 ga 19x30 unplated copper for my O2 sensor wiring additions.

[nc-renegade]

I'm an EE and have plenty of this stuff around.

Mike

Hi Mike,
So am I, designed and built many high end embedded systems and have a patent, all for electric utility applications...but still screwed up my ecu! LOL, sh$t happens!  So be careful, the Delphi ECU is not as highly ruggedized as I would of assumed.

A friend of mine has an 06 ECU that he does not need.  He is giving me this one tomorrow.  Hopefully, I will be able to successful marry the unit to my security/turn signal unit and get the correct VIN number programed in.  I still want to try out the TSS VTune.

Regards,
NC

[blkfalc4]

That sucks NC, your right though '"Potty mouth" happens' had many a time where I thought it was safe and good, but the output wasn't as I had calculated. LOL

Mike

[deuce 06]

What is Rams website or where can I find info to the O2 conversion    Thanks

[Ram]

What is Rams website or where can I find info to the O2 conversion    Thanks

Ram has no website, sorry. I do check in from time to time.

All the info on the o2 conversions to date for the most part has been posted on this website within
various posts.

I'm not a dealer or a tuner.  I'm just an average guy doing a little upgrade like a few others here.

I know that a single source point of information, is actually non-existent (its pretty much scattered in several threads and other sites as well) for converting an '05 or '06 to run closed loop with o2's as an '07 does.

I have done a lot of research on this up to this point, ordered the items listed above. Assembled them and installed them on my '06 FLHRI Road King. And am currently updating a new laptop with drivers. To do my tuning if the rain stays away!  Or I don't get called into work.

What question/s do you have?

[hollywood63]

Forgive my stupidity but I thought going to a "wide band" system was the way to go versus the stock o2's. I just found this post and read through it a couple times. Not seeing the advantage.................................and not trying to start a pissing match...................just don't understand
Thanks

[nc-renegade]

Forgive my stupidity but I thought going to a "wide band" system was the way to go versus the stock o2's. I just found this post and read through it a couple times. Not seeing the advantage.................................and not trying to start a pissing match...................just don't understand
Thanks

I like my T-Max, however I want to see what the advantage is with the Delphi, once properly tuned.  The big factor in my book is the anti-knocking technology the Delphi has; the T-Max does not have this feature.

I also have plans for my T-Max on a friends bagger with Zipper's Dry Nitro system.

[Don D]

Once the VEs are corrected the AFRs can be juggled as one sees fit and have relatively accurate ECU correction.
This is possible with Vtune or manually with a SERT on the dyno.
I have been told by more than one tuner that they turn off closed loop after tuning.
No endorsement or recomendation just the messenger here.

[Don D]

What are you using to crimp the terminals on?

[flhtci2006]

Are the 72011-05 needed?  Are these seals for where the wires go into the O2 sensor connectors?  If so, could the holes be potted?

[Ram]

Are the 72011-05 needed?  Are these seals for where the wires go into the O2 sensor connectors?  If so, could the holes be potted?

The AMP connectors were developed with the intent to maintain the connectors water resistance along with keeping dirt out and to remove the contact if needed.  I'm sure that they are also performing a bit of contact alignment of the back shell so when connecting to the mate connectors the pins and sockets are aligned and make positive connection as the two back shells are connected to each other.

They were only $0.50 each. I only paid a total of $2.00 (less tax) for all (4) of mine.

If you install the contact on the wire with out that seal in place I'm pretty sure that you would ruin the seal getting it over the contact or sliding completely over all the tail end (from the other end) of the wire to crimp it correctly onto the contact after the fact.  

IMO, as I did order and waited for the complete components list to arrive prior to assembly.

You could pot the back side of the connection.  If you really wanted to.

Don't expect to remove your wire or contact from the connector assy successfully in the future. And if the contact points (pins and sockets) don't slide together right after the potting has set you have to cut off the entire mess and start again. Hope fully you leave a bit of extra wire in your harness to do so!  

On another foot note: I've heard that others have had issues with getting the o2 sensors to operate properly when installing on an 05/06 for closed loop tuning. In cutting corners by what ever back yard mechanics means, will not help trouble shoot future issues.  It definitely is not going to help the future maintainability.  

I can only recommend, assembly with all the parts as listed, and use the proper TYCO/AMP crimpers as outlined in the FSM to affix your contacts onto the wire ends as they were intended.  With a good automotive grade wire as well. You don't want fuel or solvents to dissolve the wire jacket.  

[flhtci2006]

My problem was no one in the area has the seals.  You make good points.  I know in the aircraft business, potting is a very common method.  But, I'll put 4 on order.
One other thing I have noticed in various threads about this is there have been 2 different O2 sensor part numbers given.  They are the 27683-06 and -07.  While both look identical, there is a different Bosch number on them.  Could this be a reason some have had problems with going closed loop?  FFT

[Ram]

My problem was no one in the area has the seals.  You make good points.  I know in the aircraft business, potting is a very common method.  But, I'll put 4 on order.
One other thing I have noticed in various threads about this is there have been 2 different O2 sensor part numbers given.  They are the 27683-06 and -07.  While both look identical, there is a different Bosch number on them.  Could this be a reason some have had problems with going closed loop?  FFT

Its good to hear that you will order and most likely be back ordered if not regionally on hand for your seals.  

I don't know if any difference exists in the part numbers electrically or physically for o2 sensors!  

I have read that H-D part number suffix is incremented to indicate year models and or updates.  

I would suspect that since its a "numerical" vice alphabetical suffix change that it only indicates the difference between 2006 and 2007 year model production? Like meaning the -06 could be Dyna vice -07 for Turning bikes? Maybe a dealer parts counter person could shed some light?

I know for a fact that I have the 27683-07 injectors and are for a model year 2007 FLH series touring bike. I've verified them with the dealership parts counter.

I'm sure that someone with any additional information on any possible difference in the part number suffix will be addressed shortly, if someone knows anything different.  

Its almost a sure bet that Steve Cole knows!  

[FLTRI]

Different part numbers could be due to different length pigtails.

[Ram]

Different part numbers could be due to different length pigtails.

True. 

I developed the parts listing above posted by NC and its for the -07.  So if someone is concerned about fitment with those parts, they all work together.

[Herko]

Different part numbers could be due to different length pigtails.

Bob's right.
I normally keep all 3 part numbers here.
Difference being in pigtail lengths.

[Evo160K]

They are the 27683-06 and -07.  While both look identical, there is a different Bosch number on them. 

IIRC the length of the wire between the sensor and the connector is different.

[flhtci2006]

For kicks, does anyone have pic's of the newly created O2 harness/harnesses?

[Ram]

For kicks, does anyone have pic's of the newly created O2 harness/harnesses?

wouldn't take will send later.

[flhtci2006]

While wiring is not my specialty, I am quite familiar with it as I have had to inspect the work of others to the mil-specs.  I have made some simple harnesses and crimped wires.  Any info possible on moving from PCIII to TTS and closed loop would be appreciated.  I have indeed ordered the wire seals (and some extra pins, just in case).  Since the engine is apart now but going back together, I will make and install the harnesses in advance as I won't have all the parts in before I finish the build.  I'll use the PCIII initially then once the parts come in, transfer over to TTS and closed loop.  I won't do any connecting of the harnesses to the ECO or even install the O2 sensors until all parts are in and the job can be completed 100%.  Don't want to leave anything disconnected.

[Ram]

For kicks, does anyone have pic's of the newly created O2 harness/harnesses?

Please note: These "Green" wire seals ABOVE are only for instructional purposes.



The ones that you have to order are Yellow, like I've included in photos below.

In process of building wiring assembly. The wire colors that I have used are NOT
exactly the same as those as factory. Teflon wiring that I used was not economically
available in factory colors for me when spec'ing out my parts listing. However I have documented what I
have ran and will keep it safe for future reference.  

Note: You will have to allow wiring for engine vibrations. Do not run any of the o2 sensor wires tight from the engine to frame tie points.



This is as much of a "Harness" that I've made.  From this point, install o2's,
remove gas tank, run wiring in try on back bone, route to ECM.  Secure wiring
upto ECM harness and then run into back shell of ECM.  I did final crimp of "sockets"
the contacts which I pushed into terminal numbers 8 and 23. Then tied into the common
terminal contact (26) wiring with solder and heat shrink.  

[nc-renegade]

Ram,
You photos are how I did mine as well, except I used the same color wire and then ohm'd it out.

[flhtci2006]

Thanks for the pictures and instructions.  Guess I need to hunt down some wire.  At least I have a week or two untill the other parts come from Zonotti.

Not to sound stupid but wanting to clarify to myself why I'm doing this, can nc, Herko, Steve C or Ram tell me what I should expect to get by converting my 06 to closed loop?

[Ram]

Thanks for the pictures and instructions.  Guess I need to hunt down some wire.  At least I have a week or two untill the other parts come from Zonotti.

Have found mine on e-bay if your looking for mil-std Teflon, you may luck out and find H-D wiring colors.  

Not to sound stupid but wanting to clarify to myself why I'm doing this, can nc, Herko, Steve C or Ram tell me what I should expect to get by converting my 06 to closed loop?

With luck, lots of fun tuning, ability to improve performance for mod's you have made or will make, and have some control over engine exhaust heat and some ability to change overall mileage.

And most of all the ability to run closed loop! If done everything right!

[Don D]

More specifically the ability to do data runs using TTS mastertune to cover nearly the whole map, most throttle and speed areas, and correcting the VEs yourself. Then after that you can set the AFRs where you want and have a reasonable tune. Of course a dyno would get that last bit of WOT and timing tweaking that can smooth things out a little more and potentially add some mileage plus get the best number at WOT.
The manual is online, take a look.
http://www.mastertune.net/files/Tuning%20Files/Manuals/MasterTune_Tuning_Guide.pdf

[FLTRI]

More specifically the ability to do data runs using TTS mastertune to cover nearly the whole map, most throttle and speed areas, and correcting the VEs yourself. Then after that you can set the AFRs where you want and have a reasonable tune. Of course a dyno would get that last bit of WOT and timing tweaking that can smooth things out a little more and potentially add some mileage plus get the best number at WOT.
The manual is online, take a look.
http://www.mastertune.net/files/Tuning%20Files/Manuals/MasterTune_Tuning_Guide.pdf

[flhtci2006]

I picked up some wire that should work fine.  I'll have to read back through the thread but I went with 20ga.  It's pvc jacket, tinned copper stranded wire.  I wasn't concerned about color but went with black, yellow and white.
Pipes are having bungs welded tomorrow.

Thanks for the info on the reason to do this.

[flhtci2006]

Ram,
Where did you tap into the common at?  Or, about how far from the ecu?

[Ram]

I chose in the back shell of the ECM connector about 1 inch from socket contact 26. It saved tearing out the wiring from the bundle further up the line or across the backbone and made sure that I was on the exact wire off of 26. I soldered in a small contact point of the two leads, (not cutting the original wire going to 26) to make it easy to heat shrink it and tape it over.

Please note: "CAUTION" If you have a high wattage solder iron vice low wattage (typically 35 watts) solder pencil, or if your solder skills are less then what they should be, go back farther away from the ECM connector so you do not melt it at all. Or extract the contact from the connector before soldering. Heat transfers down the wire very fast, you can totally destroy the connector in a flash! 

Didn't have to ring it out later to be sure that its the right one out of a bundle. Could access it quickly in the future. Its reasonably protected inside the plastic of the back shell. It had to be opened anyway to push in the other two leads, why mess up the wiring harness in two places to close back up. It also keeps the wire lengths from each sensor as close in length as possible for each contact lead to the sensor, if that is going to make a difference.  I thought it could since its such a low voltage devise.

You can get it any place you wish this was simplest for me.

[Herko]

The 36 pin ECU connector is one of the more user friendly connectors once you see how it works.
You can easily remove pin 26 (the BK/W sensor ground) to make connection work a bit easier, then reinstall.

I like soldering too (and know how to solder) but purposely connected the two sensor ground wires to the BK/W with properly sized "M" knifes removed from Scotchlock type connectors. Tested first to ensure these knives did not damage the stranding of the OE wire (using a piece of an old harness) but still made a good connection.

Did each (front and rear) sensor wire in two places within a 3 to 4 inch span along the BK/W. (4 "M" knifes total, two per sensor wire). Then wrapped with quality tape. Looks good, works good.

[flhtci2006]

I too can solder and have low wattage and high wattage irons.  However, having seen some really interesting soldering, I totally get your point!!!  However, I was thinking (should say it crossed my mind) of using a butt connector then heat shrink over it and about 2 inches of the wire on each end.

I hadn't looked at the sockets when I bought them but started the project last night and when I did, realized I had the proper crimpers at home to crimp them.  I did the ecm end, twisted the pair and ran them in some 1/8" heat shrink.  I opened the wire tray on the backbone and will feed the harness into it Monday.  I'll leave excess wire on the O2 sensor end for final connection/socket installation when the parts come in (which is the same time I'll do the wiring into the Packard connector and common wire.)

Got the engine all buttoned up (went 98").  Got the pipes back last night with the O2 bungs installed.  Should be ready to fire it up using the PCIII Tuesday or Wednesday.  The following week I'll swap over to the TTS.

Anyone interested in doing this and wants to crimp the wires properly, I'll loan you my crimpers you just take care of shipping.

Thanks guys for you support/help on this.  I'm sure I'll be in another thread on how to do the tuning (I have downloaded the mastertune manual and printed it which I read while I fish because I don't have to work the rod....fishing rod.....  The lake doesn't have fish in it, I swear.

[mike 120]

Does anyone know if HD has a part number for the harness connecting the O2 to the ECM ? That would be helpful to guys like me who don't have the know how.
Mike

[cts1950]

Does anyone know if HD has a part number for the harness connecting the O2 to the ECM ? That would be helpful to guys like me who don't have the know how.
Mike

Mike this is part of the main harnes on a 07 bike. You have to do it your self on a older bike.

[mike 120]

Ok thanks, getting my info together and waiting to hear if the VIN block on 04's has been resolved, mine is an 04 with replacement 05 ecm.
Mike

[nc-renegade]

I got an 06 Delphi ECU from a friend and installed it on my bike.  Same problem with the rear o2, it just does not fire off.  I am thinking it is a problem with the V&H Propipe BP 2to1 exhaust.  I did remove the plug from the baffle, perhaps it is drawing enough air in to keep the o2 sensor from heating up enough to fire off???

[Herko]

I got an 06 Delphi ECU from a friend and installed it on my bike.  Same problem with the rear o2, it just does not fire off.  I am thinking it is a problem with the V&H Propipe BP 2to1 exhaust.  I did remove the plug from the baffle, perhaps it is drawing enough air in to keep the o2 sensor from heating up enough to fire off???

Couple of questions:
What voltage are you seeing from the rear sensor?
What RPM are you using when observing sensor light off?
If at idle and AFR is a bit rich to boot, sometimes enough heat may not be generated to give sensor sufficient heat.
Try bumping up the RPM and hold steady and observe.

Maybe for the '10 models they'll remedy this with heated sensors...hmmm. 
Who knows, maybe our bungs wont have to be as large in the near future either...like some other mfgs already have.

[nc-renegade]

I got an 06 Delphi ECU from a friend and installed it on my bike.  Same problem with the rear o2, it just does not fire off.  I am thinking it is a problem with the V&H Propipe BP 2to1 exhaust.  I did remove the plug from the baffle, perhaps it is drawing enough air in to keep the o2 sensor from heating up enough to fire off???

Couple of questions:
What voltage are you seeing from the rear sensor?
What RPM are you using when observing sensor light off?
If at idle and AFR is a bit rich to boot, sometimes enough heat may not be generated to give sensor sufficient heat.
Try bumping up the RPM and hold steady and observe.

Maybe for the '10 models they'll remedy this with heated sensors...hmmm.  
Who knows, maybe our bungs wont have to be as large in the near future either...like some other mfgs already have.

When I was observing the O2 data, the front lit off at idle RPM, but the rear never got below 4000mV.  I ran the RPM up to 3000 and held it.

Stange thing is the Vtune recording says the AFR is good.  Perhaps it is throwing out the rear and simply using the front sensor?  I plan to record the bike while running (not Vtune recording) so I can observe the O2 sensors.

[FLTRI]

When I was observing the O2 data, the front lit off at idle RPM, but the rear never got below 4000mV.

FWIW, the stock "Y" pipe with low/no restrictive muffs can not work properly with closed loop EFI due to excessive reversion from the left side pipe which does not occur with stock (restrictive) muffs.
Bob

[nc-renegade]

When I was observing the O2 data, the front lit off at idle RPM, but the rear never got below 4000mV.

FWIW, the stock "Y" pipe with low/no restrictive muffs can not work properly with closed loop EFI due to excessive reversion from the left side pipe which does not occur with stock (restrictive) muffs.
Bob

Hi Bob, it's a 2to1 system and not a stock "y" pipe.  I am thinking about putting on the 07" Softail SE stock exhaust I have laying around to see if I get readings.  It just kills performance though.

[ToBeFrank]

Have you verified the rear isn't running too rich?

[FLTRI]

Hi Bob, it's a 2to1 system and not a stock "y" pipe.

Not sure why the rear cylinder O2 functionality would be any different than the front unless it is a rare 2into1 that somehow promotes rear cylinder reversion.
Other than that, the only logical explanation would be a defective sensor or improper sensor location and it is not getting proper exhaust flow across it. You might try swapping front to rear and see if that makes a change in reading.
HTH,
Bob

[nc-renegade]

Have you verified the rear isn't running too rich?

No, I have not done that. Without a dyno, might be hard to do.

[nc-renegade]

Hi Bob, it's a 2to1 system and not a stock "y" pipe.

Not sure why the rear cylinder O2 functionality would be any different than the front unless it is a rare 2into1 that somehow promotes rear cylinder reversion.
Other than that, the only logical explanation would be a defective sensor or improper sensor location and it is not getting proper exhaust flow across it. You might try swapping front to rear and see if that makes a change in reading.
HTH,
Bob

I went through all that with the original 05 ECU before it took a dump.  Swapped sensors, ohm'd out connectors, etc.  I did drill out the baffle plug to get a dyno sniffer through it, don't know if that effected the rear.

I've done 4 Vtunes and the bike is running really well.  I am getting ready to make a data run to log the o2 sensors.  That should tell me if they fire off once the bike gets going.

[ToBeFrank]

Have you verified the rear isn't running too rich?

No, I have not done that. Without a dyno, might be hard to do.

Decrease the VEs for the rear 10% or so and see if the sensor responds.

[nc-renegade]

Have you verified the rear isn't running too rich?

No, I have not done that. Without a dyno, might be hard to do.

Decrease the VEs for the rear 10% or so and see if the sensor responds.

Good idea!  I also thought about taking it out of close loop, put it all at the same AFR and put my widebands back in. (Use the data serial bus so the AFR is displayed on my speedometer.)

I can't wait to try your software to tune in the timing.

[nc-renegade]

I did a datarun lastnight and both front and rear o2 are working properly in range.  I believe ToBeFrank hit on the head about the rear running real rich at first.  The Vtune sessions tuned it in, though there is a significate difference between Front and Rear VE table; up to 30%, don't know if that is normal?

Edit: I reviewed the SampleData for Generic O2 and it shows the same percentages that I am getting.

[VDeuce]

I did a datarun lastnight and both front and rear o2 are working properly in range.  I believe ToBeFrank hit on the head about the rear running real rich at first.  The Vtune sessions tuned it in, though there is a significate difference between Front and Rear VE table; up to 30%, don't know if that is normal?

Edit: I reviewed the SampleData for Generic O2 and it shows the same percentages that I am getting.

I had the same issue with rear being 20% more than front when using a certain map. In my case, the NI176 map produced these results. When I switched to NL176 or PC176, these major differences disappeared and became much closer together.

What base map are you using?

[FLTRI]

I did a datarun lastnight and both front and rear o2 are working properly in range.  I believe ToBeFrank hit on the head about the rear running real rich at first.  The Vtune sessions tuned it in, though there is a significate difference between Front and Rear VE table; up to 30%, don't know if that is normal?

Edit: I reviewed the SampleData for Generic O2 and it shows the same percentages that I am getting.

I had the same issue with rear being 20% more than front when using a certain map. In my case, the NI176 map produced these results. When I switched to NL176 or PC176, these major differences disappeared and became much closer together.

What base map are you using?

Anyone know why it is desireable for the front and rear VE numbers to look/be similar front-to-rear?

[nc-renegade]

Anyone know why it is desireable for the front and rear VE numbers to look/be similar frontier?

Got me..if you are asking.  I was expecting it to be closer than 30% at points, with everything else being equal. (No experience, just a gut feeling or preconceived notion.)

I am using PG176-B1-000 for my base.  So far, the bike runs good...not great, but good.  I have not finished tuning it and I have not looked at the ignition yet.  I think it is interesting that several different base maps produce varying results for the VE tables??  If that is the case, than there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we do not know or have access to.   Especially if you consider the VE is the measure of air through the engine...why would different maps have different VE (assuming they are tuned the same) for the same engine?

[Scotty]

Every bike I have done has different VE's front to rear and that is what I would expect to happen.

Exhaust scavenging, cam profile etc wil make each cylinder behave differently and that is the beauty of EFI and mapping each cylinder seperatley.

Of course I could be talking rubbish as well 

[nc-renegade]

Every bike I have done has different VE's front to rear and that is what I would expect to happen.

Exhaust scavenging, cam profile etc wil make each cylinder behave differently and that is the beauty of EFI and mapping each cylinder seperatley.

Of course I could be talking rubbish as well 

Yep, you are right, I just did not expect 30% at points..but that makes sense when you consider the high overlapping, lift cam and other performance parts on my bike.

The one thing that bothers me is the report from VDeuce on the wide differences on the VE's from different base maps; after the tune.  I would not have expected this.

[blkfalc4]

I'm just about done on my o2 conversion on my 05' WG and trying to decide on the base map to use. Gotta say this latest is definately throwing a little curve at it now.
Now I don't know where to begin. Was guessing I was on to something, Now I'm confused as there is no map that closely matches my build.
Kinda noticed the differences uysing the 127 cals but thought nothing of it.

Oh well back to the drawing board I guess.

Mike

[cts1950]

Please list the part number for the o2 sensors and what are you guys doing for wiring. I helped a guy and we used a couple ACR harnesses for the pin connections, got to be an easier less expensive way.
TIA

Here is a list that Ram sent me:

2 ea....72007-05.........Housing Socket
4 ea....72006-05.........Socket, terminal
2 ea....72076-00.........Pins
4 ea....72011-05.........Wire seal, #16-20 AWG/Yellow
2 ea....27683-07.........o2 Sensor

I was looking through a 07 police parts manual and was going to place a order tor these parts and found a difference in the connectors in the plug. They were using a gold plated connector in this circuit I think because of the extremely low voltage any resistance would be intolerable. The list I compiled is mostly the same .

2 ea... 72007-05.....socket housing 2-way
4 ea... 72011-05.....wire seal #16-20 awg yellow
4 ea... 72611-07.....socket terminal #16-20 awg gold
2 ea... 27719-07.....o2 sensor

[nc-renegade]

I've run about 12 VTunes and was somewhat satisfied with the tune.  Today, I used Doc's method and went out and ran 2 VTune sessions and the bike tuned in real good.

I also used ToBeFrank's MyTune and really liked it as well.  I plan to use that program to optimize my timing.

[Don D]

What is My Tune and what does it cost?

[nc-renegade]

What is My Tune and what does it cost?

MyTune is software that takes SERT or SEST datarun files (as well as TwinScan II log files and generates corrections to your VE tables.  It has a well done user interface.  It also looks at your ignition knock sensor and provides new ignition tables based on the knock sensor.

Here the website: http://www.tunemyharley.com/

It is $50.

I find MyTune and VTune are very good tools for tuning.  ToBeFrank wrote MyTune and he is the one that told me my high reading of 4000 mV was from too rich of mixture on my rear cylinder when I was having my sensor problem.  That is exactly what was going on.  He knows his stuff on this.

[Steve Cole]

Be careful when tuning the spark side of things as taking spark away from the main spark table many times is not the right thing to do. There are several spark tables to use and using them correctly will give you a better running bike along with greater overall power and mileage.

[nc-renegade]

Be careful when tuning the spark side of things as taking spark away from the main spark table many times is not the right thing to do. There are several spark tables to use and using them correctly will give you a better running bike along with greater overall power and mileage.

Hi Steve,
I have access to a Dyno 250 with inertia brake.  How do you recommend optimizing the timing using a dyno?

Thanks in advance!

[Steve Cole]

You need to look at the data to determine what is the right thing to do. Pay attention to the temperature and load (kPa) If you see  knock at say 80 kPa and only above 96* you may want to adjust the Spk Vs Temp table, if it's knock at all temperatures then you may want to pull timing from the main tables. A general rule of thumb is that you can run more Spk. at cooler temp to gain both power and fuel economy also the richer the mixture the more Spk you can run (PE SPK).  So when you ride on a hot day or double up the bike pings but on a cooler day by yourself it runs like a bat out of hell why would you take away the spark from the main tables? This is why we do not do a auto timing adjustment, yes it's easy to do but we feel it gives the customer a false sense that it's done right.

[nc-renegade]

You need to look at the data to determine what is the right thing to do. Pay attention to the temperature and load (kPa) If you see  knock at say 80 kPa and only above 96* you may want to adjust the Spk Vs Temp table, if it's knock at all temperatures then you may want to pull timing from the main tables. A general rule of thumb is that you can run more Spk. at cooler temp to gain both power and fuel economy also the richer the mixture the more Spk you can run (PE SPK). 

Steve, thanks!

[flhtci2006]

How the hell do you get the crimped sockets into the amp connector?

[Ram]

How the hell do you get the crimped sockets into the amp connector?

The ECM end have to push into the vacant spot.  Some times the use of a connector pin/socket insertion & extraction tool is recommended.

I used AMP Red. The red end is for pushing into back shell and the white end is for extraction.

For inserting into the o2 back shell you can just push them straight in place.  If they don't go its not crimped right, or the plug end has something obstructing it or your just not doing it right.  Do you have a photo of what your wanting to push in? And did you use the proper crimp on tools? Which end are you trying to insert? And if you have inserted into the o2 back shell and want to remove them those pin contact insertion and extraction tools will not work for the removal of the o2 sockets. Those require tools much like dental tools or lock smith pick tools.  Entirely different procedure to remove them opposed to removing from the ECM connector.

[flhtci2006]

Reference your reply #48.  My socket housings look like yours except, the is a red locking ring.  I have sockets like yours and also sockets that are similar but different.  The ones that are slightly different I got from the dealer and they were on a strip of 10 in a bag with the correct part number.

[blkfalc4]

The red lock ring snaps on after the pins have been inserted into the plug.
I take it you tried both ways. The hooks maybe hanging up on you.
Btw, your gonna love the bike with the 07 cals in it. My bike is running better than it ever has. And it ran really well before. YMMV

Mike

[Ram]

Reference your reply #48.  My socket housings look like yours except, the is a red locking ring.  I have sockets like yours and also sockets that are similar but different.  The ones that are slightly different I got from the dealer and they were on a strip of 10 in a bag with the correct part number.

The ones you have from the dealer, if they exact same part number listed above (way up above), then all you do is cut off the flashing strip they are attached to with a small set of wire cutters.  See photo below.

When you crimp on the wire with the yellow seal like in the photo attached above then that entire assembled end just pushes straight into the black big hole of the back shell and the seal plugs it so its all environmentally tight.  Only when you get both wires seated into the back shell, then you take that red part and slide it home and you then can mate the connector to the other one pig tailed from the o2 sensor.

Is this more clear?

[flhtci2006]

Well, it is as clear as can be.  I have tried this not sure how many times.  I'm gonna have the dealer crimp the pins and sockets and install the housings.  I will say, the sockets are just a bit different in looks compared to yours.  They are the same part number.  Anyway, dealer is pretty cool and will do the crimping no charge.
Now, any secret to getting the pin out of the ECU connector?  I want to remove the common wire so I can solder the 2 wires from the O2's and put the shrink sleeve on.

[blkfalc4]

Do you have the Electrical Diagnostic Manual (EDM) for your bike?
It explains it pretty well with pics in the last chapter.

Mike

[Steve Cole]

To remove the pin or install the pin into the ECM connector is very easy. Look at the grey part of the connector where the wires come in and you will find three small tabs holding the two halves closed. Using a small screwdriver lift up on the tab and open the two halves apart. Now look at the side that goes into the ECM. On each end you will see a small white tab that sticks out into the cover. Depress this tab and slide the cover off, you will have to do both ends before pulling to hard on the cover. Once the cover is off you can slide the wire and pin out the backside. When pushing new pins in place you may have to use a small sharp object and push it through the first time. There is a silicone seal and if there was no pin in a hole it is still sealed closed, a small straight pin will do the trick.

[flhtci2006]

I don't know why I couldn't get the sockets in the O2 connector end.  But, I will have them done by the dealer and also have the pins on the ECM connector end crimped on. That should be done tonight.  Tomorrow I'll disassemble the ECM side connector, run the 2 O2 harnesses and terminate them.  Should be ready to start the programming/mapping Wednesday.

A stupid question, How does the ECM know you have O2 sensors and what to do?  Is the ECM programmed at the factor to accept O2's or is this part of the TTS programming that will be done?  I assume the TTS software programs the ECM.  My reason for asking is that replacing "maps" is different than totally reconfiguring what the ECM sees and does.

[Don D]

Use an .MT7 starter map.

[flhtci2006]

Just a quick note about those damn O2 sensor connectors.  I tried many times to crimp and install the sockets into the connectors (not the pins in the ECM connector).  Finally, wanting to make sure this was not a possible problem area for the future, I went to the dealer and asked to have them terminate the ends.  Well, they crimped on new sockets, had some problems and I bought 2 new housings, then after 1 1/2 hours, I left with the job still not done.  What I'm saying here is, even the trained professionals had the same problems I was having.  I cannot say the parts I had were the same parts listed in a reply before but, I can say the parts were in bags with the bar coded part numbers being the same.  Misbagged parts, possibly.  Don't know yet.

[Herko]

...even the trained professionals had the same problems...

Not likely that they had specific training for this connector or is it something that they do every day.
Having the the proper crimper at home would help but pricey. Or, they may or may not have grabbed the proper cripmer from their special tool stash.
But this crimping can be done with average tools such as needle nose pliers, wire cutters, hemostats etc. if a little finese is used.

As mentioned above there's some pretty good tutorials in the back of the SM's and EDM's.
Shows part numbers and style of cripmers per the given crimp task at hand. Got books?
Little more involved here than adding a fender light to a Ford 8N. 

Getting more than the required number of connector components will be a great asset for trial and error purposes.
Is the wire type/size at least in the ballpark?
Good lighting and maybe a magnifyer would help too.
Perform a pull test (crimp integrity) on the crimps.

Hang with it. Sucess will come.
It's worth the time and work.

[flhtci2006]

Herko,
I do agree with you.  I guess my only point in the reply was that typically, you expect the tecnician at the dealer to have a better understanding of the item than you.  They have been to some sort of motorcycle training and hd training, where I haven't.  I am not use to these connectors.  I have been in aerospace for 37 years and we use a different style, typically.
I do have the books/manuals.  Hell, I even researched Delphi's connector web page.  Let's just say that when the dealer couldn't do it, I felt a bit relieved in that it wasn't "ole stupid me".  Had they have done it in 5 minutes, I woulda questioned myself a bit more.
I hope loading the map and tuning isn't gonna be a hassle.  After all, you would think putting 4 sockets in a connector wouldn't be!
Oh, magnifyers and lighting.  Yes, this is a big issue with me as my eye sight sucks and it's getting where to do anything, I need high noon sunlight (which in Phoenix right now makes the outside temp over 100, sweat in the eyes, fried brain, etc. etc.

[nc-renegade]

I used the AMP/Tyco crimper and mine crimped on as the photos that Ram attached show.  I had no issues with the crimp or connector assembly.  When you do the Packard connector, it is as Steve mentioned...this is a very easy connector to deal with.

Hope you get it all straighten out.

Once you load in the MT7 file, you can view the O2 data through the Datamaster program by selecting the Generic o2 data setup.  The Vtune recording monitoring screen shows the AFR go/no go as well.

[Ram]

Herko,
I do agree with you.  I guess my only point in the reply was that typically, you expect the tecnician at the dealer to have a better understanding of the item than you.  They have been to some sort of motorcycle training and hd training, where I haven't.  I am not use to these connectors.  I have been in aerospace for 37 years and we use a different style, typically.
I do have the books/manuals.  Hell, I even researched Delphi's connector web page.  Let's just say that when the dealer couldn't do it, I felt a bit relieved in that it wasn't "ole stupid me".  Had they have done it in 5 minutes, I woulda questioned myself a bit more.
I hope loading the map and tuning isn't gonna be a hassle.  After all, you would think putting 4 sockets in a connector wouldn't be!
Oh, magnifyers and lighting.  Yes, this is a big issue with me as my eye sight sucks and it's getting where to do anything, I need high noon sunlight (which in Phoenix right now makes the outside temp over 100, sweat in the eyes, fried brain, etc. etc.

I'm sure that its very possiable that what ever the part you have recieved could be a wrong one.  It would be interesting to see a couple close up shots of that connector if you could picture it and either post or I can send you my e-mail in a PM and post it for you.

[flhtci2006]

Ram,
I have a digital camera but as life goes, the battery won't recharge.  Of course, everytime something is made, they have to design a new battery.  Now I have a camera that is only 2 years old and I can't find anyone that has the battery.  I'll have to order one online.  Send me your e-mail and I'll send the picture I drew of the parts.

Anyway, talked to the dealer today and it is done.  I'm not gonna question the issue with them since they did it under the table and spent so much time.

Lastly, I do appreciate yours and the others replies and help.  Thank you all.  I hope I don't have more issues/questions but, most likely I will.  Just trying to be optimistically realistic.

[FLTRI]

Ram,
I have a digital camera but as life goes, the battery won't recharge.  Of course, everytime something is made, they have to design a new battery.  Now I have a camera that is only 2 years old and I can't find anyone that has the battery.  I'll have to order one online. 

Check these guys out:
http://www.batteriesplus.com/manufacturer/51-0/Digital-Camera-Batteries.aspx

[wolf_59]

I know this is an old thread but I wanted to give a big THANKS out to all that contributed Ram, NC, Herko, Steve Cole and all the others, The information and pictures (especially the pictures ) in this thread was a huge help to me on successfully converting my 04 Fatboy over to closed loop, Got 1 Vtune run in yesterday ( easier than it sounds in the instructions ) once I get this tuned I'll do the conversion on the 06 Ultra
Thanks for sharing this information