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EV27 ok at 9.9 static compression?

Started by Adam76, April 09, 2020, 05:52:52 AM

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Adam76

April 09, 2020, 05:52:52 AM Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 06:28:05 AM by Adam76
 Hey guys, new to the evo section.

It started with just a bolt in cam... then I learned that the evo motor really needs more compression so then it became looking at milling and cleaning up the heads and 0.030 head gasket.... which then led to me ordering a set of wiseco tracker 10.1 comp pistons. Dyna 2000 ignition and coil.

Big boys compression calculator puts me at around 9.9 comp corrected at 9.28 and ccp at 192.5 with 83cc heads.

I'm starting to think this may be detonation territory, but I've read a lot of folks that do it with no problems and other builders who say too high comp?
Should l leave the heads at 85cc or whatever they are as stock?
Looking for any help before I go any further.

Thank you and have a great Easter.  👍

Deye76

IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.
East Tenn.<br /> 2020 Lowrider S Touring, 2014 CVO RK,  1992 FXRP

Adam76

Quote from: Deye76 on April 09, 2020, 07:08:46 AM
IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.
Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

thumper 823

Slipper slope -$$$$$$$$$$
the combustion chamber is your enemy in almost any scenario.
For any of us to answer this with any clarity you might want to put a dollar sign up as to what you are willing to spend.
serious.

To cut the cake and go  caveman,  a simple bump in CR and a "proper cam" will get by @10 to 1 .
But I will warn you it is a slippery slope if you are trying to extract one to one out of it.
You need to read and read some more or be a victim of the armchair internet crowd that will tell you all you need to know yet
I cannot explain VE to you.
You need to be absolutely honest with your self what you want from the bike and where you want it.

PS yes, Scott is a good man. He will never upsell you just give you the cold hard facts.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Adam76

April 09, 2020, 07:59:08 AM #4 Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 08:03:49 AM by Adam76
Quote from: thumper 823 on April 09, 2020, 07:48:12 AM
Slipper slope -$$$$$$$$$$
the combustion chamber is your enemy in almost any scenario.

How can I simply and cheaply improve this part?


To cut the cake and go  caveman,  a simple bump in CR and a "proper cam" will get by @10 to 1 .

Yes, this is actually all I'm really trying to achieve. Not building a racing motor with a deep wallet
😊


But I will warn you it is a slippery slope if you are trying to extract one to one out of it.

80/80 Is the ideal, which I thought was possible with the ev27 or ev46 with a little help. 


Thanks thumper

thumper 823

I / we can tell you all kinds  of ways to spend your money and what has worked for me or us.
But before I tread dwn that road and have you fillet your checkbook please explain your goal as I stated earlier.

High miles b4 overhauls?
Touring?
1/4 mile?
Head turner light to light?

Be brutally honest.
If you are not you will spend unnecessary monies.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

JW113

Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.

EV46 and EV27 are two different cams. The EV46 would have no problem with 10:1 or even higher. EV27 is a fairly tame cam, meant to be a "bolt in" but will have more low rpm torque if you bump the C/R a little. The basic rule of thumb is "follow the manufacturer's recommendation", as they typically know more about their product than your average Joe. But if you want too experiment, that is cool too, but just be prepared to deal with any unexpected behavior. i.e., if it pings, plan to swap the cam for one with more duration. Like the EV46, for example.

Also note that cam duration and C/R requirements are typically considered "at sea level". If you're at 5,000 feet, I'm sure a EV-27 and 10:1 C/R is no problem at all.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Burnout

Look at where the intake valve closes, this is what determines your dynamic compression.

Getting better squish improves detonation resistance.

If you are not going to rev it up an EV27 is a better choice, as it is a lower RPM cam.
If it pings you can retard the cam a degree or 2 to lower the cylinder pressure.
If it doesn't ping you can advance the cam a degree or 2 to get all you can out of it.

A EV46 is a higher RPM cam. and it closes the intake 5° later than a 27.
A 46 has 10° more intake duration and 6° more exhaust duration than a 27.
A 27 is also a a split duration cam favoring the exhaust while a 46 is symmetrical.
Both of these cams are compromised to allow "bolt in" status. (low lift).

To make a cam grinder smile remove the lift limitation. (Think Leineweber or RedShift.)
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

turboprop

Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on April 09, 2020, 07:08:46 AM
IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.
Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

thumper 823

April 09, 2020, 10:22:59 AM #9 Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 10:28:29 AM by thumper 823
 [attach=0,msg1341473] https://www.v-twinforum.com/threads/ [attach=0,msg1341473]   
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

thumper 823

As i said-sillllperyyyy slope ! [attach=0]

I am at 0.026 squish  so far nothing hitting ...LOL
There are lots of ways of beating the door dwn to bragg rites and I am not trying to.
There is so many caveats and ways of doing something .
My way may not be your way
I like the ceramic, double plug 10.5 to 1   on a HEAVY bike two!
But the list is a mile long of the mods
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

jsachs1

April 09, 2020, 02:18:00 PM #11 Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 02:34:03 PM by jsachs1
 [attach=0,msg1341541] I just finished the heads for this build today. K.B. 9 cc dome pistons, 83 cc heads, EV 27 cam, .030" head gaskets. Should be 9.5:1 compression and 9.0:1 corrected  It will be together early next week.
John

Don D

I do the same build here, 9.5 kb pistons. It could go 10 with compression releases added and an aftermarket  ignition

Adam76

Quote from: thumper 823 on April 09, 2020, 08:06:53 AM
I / we can tell you all kinds  of ways to spend your money and what has worked for me or us.
But before I tread dwn that road and have you fillet your checkbook please explain your goal as I stated earlier.

High miles b4 overhauls?
Touring?
1/4 mile?
Head turner light to light?

Be brutally honest.
If you are not you will spend unnecessary monies.
Hey thumper, to be brutally honest is none of those specifically, but a general mixture of all of them. If that makes sense. Cheers

Adam76

Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on April 09, 2020, 07:08:46 AM
IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.
Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.
Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Adam76

Quote from: jsachs1 on April 09, 2020, 02:18:00 PM
[attach=0,msg1341541] I just finished the heads for this build today. K.B. 9 cc dome pistons, 83 cc heads, EV 27 cam, .030" head gaskets. Should be 9.5:1 compression and 9.0:1 corrected  It will be together early next week.
John
Hi John, thanks for the input.
Can I ask exactly which 9.5 KB pistons you used? This is probably the route I should go. I can't afford any real head work anyways....
Would you prefer an ev27 at 9.5 comp or a "High comp" ev46 at whatever comp it needs to perform best?

Adam76

Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 09, 2020, 03:13:16 PM
I do the same build here, 9.5 kb pistons. It could go 10 with compression releases added and an aftermarket  ignition
Thanks HD, I thought everyone steered clear of KB pistons, but there are obviously differed types?
Which ones did you use?  Do you have a part number? Thanks Adam

thumper 823

 hypereutectic pistons- work for 600 HP air-cooled Porsches.
For some reason those that have made them for HD have had problems.
Mahle may have some secrets?

I am sure KB makes other great products, not at all sure about their high silicone pistons 
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Adam76

John / thumper.... I'm still confused. If I keep my ccp at around 195 with the ev27 and some Wiseco 10.1 pistons, theoretically shouldn't this be all good?

Big boys calc puts me at 191 with 83cc heads.
Thanks again. 🤔

thumper 823

The answer is not a "canned one" as I said -different people will approach this for what works for them.
Some things that work for Me-
always double plug ,
A proper ignition system such as Daytona TT.
All sharp edges removed in the combustion chamber.
A very tight squish.
A proper cam from your choice of vendor ( I no longer recommend cams as it becomes like an oil war)

SO far you have not listed what your bike will be used for ...(kind of important)
There are methods to get where you need to be and there will be other answers.
In the end, you will end up at a machine shop that has to carve things up to make it all work.
I highly recommend you give Scot @ Hillside a call.
He will not upsell you-I know him personally.
I will recommend Nodular cylinders and look at my combustion chambers again.

D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

JW113

Adam, there is lots of nice data from computer programs in the virtual world, and then there is reality. Use the software to figure out a starting point if you wish, but just be prepared to makes some adjustments to it's recipe after you have an actual running machine. It's all part of the fun of "tuning".

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

turboprop

Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on April 09, 2020, 07:08:46 AM
IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.
Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.
Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Define 'Good'. A cam with a later intake closing will never be as 'good' at a lower rpm as a cam with an earlier closing point. It is what it is, but I dont think it is as bad as the key board commandos will make it out to be.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

Adam76

Quote from: thumper 823 on April 09, 2020, 06:59:11 PM
The answer is not a "canned one" as I said -different people will approach this for what works for them.
Some things that work for Me-
always double plug ,
A proper ignition system such as Daytona TT.
All sharp edges removed in the combustion chamber.
A very tight squish.
A proper cam from your choice of vendor ( I no longer recommend cams as it becomes like an oil war)

SO far you have not listed what your bike will be used for ...(kind of important)
There are methods to get where you need to be and there will be other answers.
In the end, you will end up at a machine shop that has to carve things up to make it all work.
I highly recommend you give Scot @ Hillside a call.
He will not upsell you-I know him personally.
I will recommend Nodular cylinders and look at my combustion chambers again.
Thanks for your knowledge and patience with my questions.

Yes I have a good programmable ignition system Dyna 2000
I will have the combustion chamber smoothed out and cc at 83
Squish at 35
Still have the ev27 cam
Bike will be used in all manner of ways, general street use, cruising, some spirited riding, etc.
Cannot afford new cylinders, live down under so can't use Scott (wish I could)

Just want to really know if I can use the Wiseco 10.1 pistons which puts me at 190-195 ccp or whether to play it much d safer and just use a 9.5 piston which puts me at 9.44 comp and a ccp of around 180.....
Just want to get the most bang for my buck and only do it once if you know what I mean. 
Cheers

thumper 823

Also about cams -
depending on the internal mods -
Porting, chamber design, etc, a cam in one engine will behave differently in another.
Ask a man that runs a dyno!
He will know!
Scott has a dyno and prolly set up hundreds of engines with all different scenarios.

D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Adam76

Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on April 09, 2020, 07:08:46 AM
IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.
Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.
Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Define 'Good'. A cam with a later intake closing will never be as 'good' at a lower rpm as a cam with an earlier closing point. It is what it is, but I dont think it is as bad as the key board commandos will make it out to be.
Thanks turboprop, what first got me interested in the ev46 was the amazing dyno chart with a almost flay toque curve that night rider. Com posted AND that was just with 9.5 comp.... I reckon with 10.1 maybe the 46 would be an all-around better choice? 
Man this is hard when you only have the $$ to do it once and the pressure to get it right the first time 😂