EV27 ok at 9.9 static compression?

[Adam76]

 Hey guys, new to the evo section.

It started with just a bolt in cam... then I learned that the evo motor really needs more compression so then it became looking at milling and cleaning up the heads and 0.030 head gasket.... which then led to me ordering a set of wiseco tracker 10.1 comp pistons. Dyna 2000 ignition and coil.

Big boys compression calculator puts me at around 9.9 comp corrected at 9.28 and ccp at 192.5 with 83cc heads.

I'm starting to think this may be detonation territory, but I've read a lot of folks that do it with no problems and other builders who say too high comp?
Should l leave the heads at 85cc or whatever they are as stock?
Looking for any help before I go any further.

Thank you and have a great Easter.  👍

[Deye76]

IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.

[Adam76]

IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.

Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

[thumper 823]

Slipper slope -$$$$$$$$$$
the combustion chamber is your enemy in almost any scenario.
For any of us to answer this with any clarity you might want to put a dollar sign up as to what you are willing to spend.
serious.

To cut the cake and go  caveman,  a simple bump in CR and a "proper cam" will get by @10 to 1 .
But I will warn you it is a slippery slope if you are trying to extract one to one out of it.
You need to read and read some more or be a victim of the armchair internet crowd that will tell you all you need to know yet
I cannot explain VE to you.
You need to be absolutely honest with your self what you want from the bike and where you want it.

PS yes, Scott is a good man. He will never upsell you just give you the cold hard facts.

[Adam76]

Slipper slope -$$$$$$$$$$
the combustion chamber is your enemy in almost any scenario.

How can I simply and cheaply improve this part?

To cut the cake and go  caveman,  a simple bump in CR and a "proper cam" will get by @10 to 1 .

Yes, this is actually all I'm really trying to achieve. Not building a racing motor with a deep wallet 😊


But I will warn you it is a slippery slope if you are trying to extract one to one out of it.

80/80 Is the ideal, which I thought was possible with the ev27 or ev46 with a little help. 

Thanks thumper

[thumper 823]

I / we can tell you all kinds  of ways to spend your money and what has worked for me or us.
But before I tread dwn that road and have you fillet your checkbook please explain your goal as I stated earlier.

High miles b4 overhauls?
Touring?
1/4 mile?
Head turner light to light?

Be brutally honest.
If you are not you will spend unnecessary monies.

[JW113]

I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.

EV46 and EV27 are two different cams. The EV46 would have no problem with 10:1 or even higher. EV27 is a fairly tame cam, meant to be a "bolt in" but will have more low rpm torque if you bump the C/R a little. The basic rule of thumb is "follow the manufacturer's recommendation", as they typically know more about their product than your average Joe. But if you want too experiment, that is cool too, but just be prepared to deal with any unexpected behavior. i.e., if it pings, plan to swap the cam for one with more duration. Like the EV46, for example.

Also note that cam duration and C/R requirements are typically considered "at sea level". If you're at 5,000 feet, I'm sure a EV-27 and 10:1 C/R is no problem at all.

-JW

[Burnout]

Look at where the intake valve closes, this is what determines your dynamic compression.

Getting better squish improves detonation resistance.

If you are not going to rev it up an EV27 is a better choice, as it is a lower RPM cam.
If it pings you can retard the cam a degree or 2 to lower the cylinder pressure.
If it doesn't ping you can advance the cam a degree or 2 to get all you can out of it.

A EV46 is a higher RPM cam. and it closes the intake 5° later than a 27.
A 46 has 10° more intake duration and 6° more exhaust duration than a 27.
A 27 is also a a split duration cam favoring the exhaust while a 46 is symmetrical.
Both of these cams are compromised to allow "bolt in" status. (low lift).

To make a cam grinder smile remove the lift limitation. (Think Leineweber or RedShift.)

[turboprop]

IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.

Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.

[thumper 823]

 [attach=0,msg1341473] https://www.v-twinforum.com/threads/ [attach=0,msg1341473]   

[thumper 823]

As i said-sillllperyyyy slope ! [attach=0]

I am at 0.026 squish  so far nothing hitting ...LOL
There are lots of ways of beating the door dwn to bragg rites and I am not trying to.
There is so many caveats and ways of doing something .
My way may not be your way
I like the ceramic, double plug 10.5 to 1   on a HEAVY bike two!
But the list is a mile long of the mods

[jsachs1]

 [attach=0,msg1341541] I just finished the heads for this build today. K.B. 9 cc dome pistons, 83 cc heads, EV 27 cam, .030" head gaskets. Should be 9.5:1 compression and 9.0:1 corrected  It will be together early next week.
John

[Don D]

I do the same build here, 9.5 kb pistons. It could go 10 with compression releases added and an aftermarket  ignition

[Adam76]

I / we can tell you all kinds  of ways to spend your money and what has worked for me or us.
But before I tread dwn that road and have you fillet your checkbook please explain your goal as I stated earlier.

High miles b4 overhauls?
Touring?
1/4 mile?
Head turner light to light?

Be brutally honest.
If you are not you will spend unnecessary monies.

Hey thumper, to be brutally honest is none of those specifically, but a general mixture of all of them. If that makes sense. Cheers

[Adam76]

IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.

Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.

Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

[Adam76]

[attach=0,msg1341541] I just finished the heads for this build today. K.B. 9 cc dome pistons, 83 cc heads, EV 27 cam, .030" head gaskets. Should be 9.5:1 compression and 9.0:1 corrected  It will be together early next week.
John

Hi John, thanks for the input.
Can I ask exactly which 9.5 KB pistons you used? This is probably the route I should go. I can't afford any real head work anyways....
Would you prefer an ev27 at 9.5 comp or a "High comp" ev46 at whatever comp it needs to perform best?

[Adam76]

I do the same build here, 9.5 kb pistons. It could go 10 with compression releases added and an aftermarket  ignition

Thanks HD, I thought everyone steered clear of KB pistons, but there are obviously differed types?
Which ones did you use?  Do you have a part number? Thanks Adam

[thumper 823]

 hypereutectic pistons- work for 600 HP air-cooled Porsches.
For some reason those that have made them for HD have had problems.
Mahle may have some secrets?

I am sure KB makes other great products, not at all sure about their high silicone pistons 

[Adam76]

John / thumper.... I'm still confused. If I keep my ccp at around 195 with the ev27 and some Wiseco 10.1 pistons, theoretically shouldn't this be all good?

Big boys calc puts me at 191 with 83cc heads.
Thanks again. 🤔

[thumper 823]

The answer is not a "canned one" as I said -different people will approach this for what works for them.
Some things that work for Me-
always double plug ,
A proper ignition system such as Daytona TT.
All sharp edges removed in the combustion chamber.
A very tight squish.
A proper cam from your choice of vendor ( I no longer recommend cams as it becomes like an oil war)

SO far you have not listed what your bike will be used for ...(kind of important)
There are methods to get where you need to be and there will be other answers.
In the end, you will end up at a machine shop that has to carve things up to make it all work.
I highly recommend you give Scot @ Hillside a call.
He will not upsell you-I know him personally.
I will recommend Nodular cylinders and look at my combustion chambers again.

[JW113]

Adam, there is lots of nice data from computer programs in the virtual world, and then there is reality. Use the software to figure out a starting point if you wish, but just be prepared to makes some adjustments to it's recipe after you have an actual running machine. It's all part of the fun of "tuning".

-JW

[turboprop]

IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.

Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.

Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Define 'Good'. A cam with a later intake closing will never be as 'good' at a lower rpm as a cam with an earlier closing point. It is what it is, but I dont think it is as bad as the key board commandos will make it out to be.

[Adam76]

The answer is not a "canned one" as I said -different people will approach this for what works for them.
Some things that work for Me-
always double plug ,
A proper ignition system such as Daytona TT.
All sharp edges removed in the combustion chamber.
A very tight squish.
A proper cam from your choice of vendor ( I no longer recommend cams as it becomes like an oil war)

SO far you have not listed what your bike will be used for ...(kind of important)
There are methods to get where you need to be and there will be other answers.
In the end, you will end up at a machine shop that has to carve things up to make it all work.
I highly recommend you give Scot @ Hillside a call.
He will not upsell you-I know him personally.
I will recommend Nodular cylinders and look at my combustion chambers again.

Thanks for your knowledge and patience with my questions.

Yes I have a good programmable ignition system Dyna 2000
I will have the combustion chamber smoothed out and cc at 83
Squish at 35
Still have the ev27 cam
Bike will be used in all manner of ways, general street use, cruising, some spirited riding, etc.
Cannot afford new cylinders, live down under so can't use Scott (wish I could)

Just want to really know if I can use the Wiseco 10.1 pistons which puts me at 190-195 ccp or whether to play it much d safer and just use a 9.5 piston which puts me at 9.44 comp and a ccp of around 180.....
Just want to get the most bang for my buck and only do it once if you know what I mean. 
Cheers

[thumper 823]

Also about cams -
depending on the internal mods -
Porting, chamber design, etc, a cam in one engine will behave differently in another.
Ask a man that runs a dyno!
He will know!
Scott has a dyno and prolly set up hundreds of engines with all different scenarios.

[Adam76]

IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.

Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.

Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Define 'Good'. A cam with a later intake closing will never be as 'good' at a lower rpm as a cam with an earlier closing point. It is what it is, but I dont think it is as bad as the key board commandos will make it out to be.

Thanks turboprop, what first got me interested in the ev46 was the amazing dyno chart with a almost flay toque curve that night rider. Com posted AND that was just with 9.5 comp.... I reckon with 10.1 maybe the 46 would be an all-around better choice? 
Man this is hard when you only have the $$ to do it once and the pressure to get it right the first time 😂

[Adam76]

 

Also about cams -
depending on the internal mods -
Porting, chamber design, etc, a cam in one engine will behave differently in another.
Ask a man that runs a dyno!
He will know!
Scott has a dyno and prolly set up hundreds of engines with all different scenarios.

From what I've read from Scotts previous posts, he has said that the W6, ev27 and ev46 all respond well to 10.1 comp. But I don't think the 27 would be his first choice at that comp. He says the w6 at 10.1 is by far the best choice. I don't have a w6 unfortunately and can't afford another can.

[turboprop]

IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.

Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.

Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Define 'Good'. A cam with a later intake closing will never be as 'good' at a lower rpm as a cam with an earlier closing point. It is what it is, but I dont think it is as bad as the key board commandos will make it out to be.

Thanks turboprop, what first got me interested in the ev46 was the amazing dyno chart with a almost flay toque curve that night rider. Com posted AND that was just with 9.5 comp.... I reckon with 10.1 maybe the 46 would be an all-around better choice? 
Man this is hard when you only have the $$ to do it once and the pressure to get it right the first time 😂

To make it even more fun, not all 10:1 pistons are equal. Big differences in performance between a set of 10:1 pistons with a D-shaped bump vs a set of Axtell angle top pistons with the heads machined to match. The later setup is more efficient and less prone to detonation.

https://www.axtellsales.com/Evo-Big-Twin-Pro-Street-Series-pistons/

[Adam76]

IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.

Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.

Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Define 'Good'. A cam with a later intake closing will never be as 'good' at a lower rpm as a cam with an earlier closing point. It is what it is, but I dont think it is as bad as the key board commandos will make it out to be.

Thanks turboprop, what first got me interested in the ev46 was the amazing dyno chart with a almost flay toque curve that night rider. Com posted AND that was just with 9.5 comp.... I reckon with 10.1 maybe the 46 would be an all-around better choice? 
Man this is hard when you only have the $$ to do it once and the pressure to get it right the first time 😂

To make it even more fun, not all 10:1 pistons are equal. Big differences in performance between a set of 10:1 pistons with a D-shaped bump vs a set of Axtell angle top pistons with the heads machined to match. The later setup is more efficient and less prone to detonation.

https://www.axtellsales.com/Evo-Big-Twin-Pro-Street-Series-pistons/

Thanks for adding to the confusion hahaha.... those pistons may be better but I don't have a machinist here that is capable of matching heads to piston dome shapes 😣

[turboprop]

IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.

Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.

Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Define 'Good'. A cam with a later intake closing will never be as 'good' at a lower rpm as a cam with an earlier closing point. It is what it is, but I dont think it is as bad as the key board commandos will make it out to be.

Thanks turboprop, what first got me interested in the ev46 was the amazing dyno chart with a almost flay toque curve that night rider. Com posted AND that was just with 9.5 comp.... I reckon with 10.1 maybe the 46 would be an all-around better choice? 
Man this is hard when you only have the $$ to do it once and the pressure to get it right the first time 😂

To make it even more fun, not all 10:1 pistons are equal. Big differences in performance between a set of 10:1 pistons with a D-shaped bump vs a set of Axtell angle top pistons with the heads machined to match. The later setup is more efficient and less prone to detonation.

https://www.axtellsales.com/Evo-Big-Twin-Pro-Street-Series-pistons/

Thanks for adding to the confusion hahaha.... those pistons may be better but I don't have a machinist here that is capable of matching heads to piston dome shapes 😣

Yea you do. This is not a complex operation and Axtell provides good instructions that just about any machinist can follow.

[thumper 823]

Send them straight to axtell.
Ron is a great guy!
I do suppose from dwn under the freight will add up to be something.

[Hossamania]

You have the 27 now, but you talk about the 46. Is the 46 an option, or are you sticking with the 27? I only ask because I had a 46 on a stock motor, a little sluggish down low, but an absolute blast up top. I had no problem downshifting to keep it in the sweet spot (still do that with my Twin Cam). It walked away from all comers, 27s included. But I tend to enjoy motors that work higher in the rpms, drag track style. It will be even better with some compression dialed in, I'm sure it will cure the bottom end softness.
Having said that, the 27 works well in a stock motor, it will do very well with compression.
All things being equal, the 46 wins in the 1/4 mile, but will require a downshift running uphill. It all depends on what your end goal is.
I'm sorry, I really wish I could answer your question about your intended compression working with the 27. It will with the 46. I hope someone here can give you a straight answer.

[Adam76]

You have the 27 now, but you talk about the 46. Is the 46 an option, or are you sticking with the 27? I only ask because I had a 46 on a stock motor, a little sluggish down low, but an absolute blast up top. I had no problem downshifting to keep it in the sweet spot (still do that with my Twin Cam). It walked away from all comers, 27s included. But I tend to enjoy motors that work higher in the rpms, drag track style. It will be even better with some compression dialed in, I'm sure it will cure the bottom end softness.
Having said that, the 27 works well in a stock motor, it will do very well with compression.
All things being equal, the 46 wins in the 1/4 mile, but will require a downshift running uphill. It all depends on what your end goal is.
I'm sorry, I really wish I could answer your question about your intended compression working with the 27. It will with the 46. I hope someone here can give you a straight answer.

Thanks Hossamania it's not too late to swap my 27 to a 46 and go with my intended high comp pistons.... Is actually starting to look like a better option that pushing the compression on a ev27.... I'm no expert so I'm relying on the amazing knowledge and experience shared on this great site.  👍

[Don D]

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.

[Hossamania]

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression.

I agree 100%
The 27 is just a better choice in general for most riders. The 46 works better in light bikes with light riders better than it does in heavy bikes, but even then, it is a much narrower, or rather, much higher, power band. But damn, that 46 is a ball when it hits!

[Adam76]

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.

Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

[Arseclown]

Hi Adam Im also in Australia and there's a few of us on this board among others.  I've observed a few things different between here and the USA in relation to modifying harleys. They seem to get away with running higher compression than we can.  Maybe it's because we have pretty extreme temperatures pretty much everywhere in summer or maybe our fuel is worse. Maybe both. I know they've got a lot more expert tuners than we do too. In any event me and other Harley folk I know including respected builders and tuners generally play it safer than Americans with compression. Just my two cents. Hope it all works out no matter what you do.

[Adam76]

Hi Adam Im also in Australia and there's a few of us on this board among others.  I've observed a few things different between here and the USA in relation to modifying harleys. They seem to get away with running higher compression than we can.  Maybe it's because we have pretty extreme temperatures pretty much everywhere in summer or maybe our fuel is worse. Maybe both. I know they've got a lot more expert tuners than we do too. In any event me and other Harley folk I know including respected builders and tuners generally play it safer than Americans with compression. Just my two cents. Hope it all works out no matter what you do.

Hey thanks mate, that's something I always had in the back of my mind and appreciate you bringing it up. Cheers. 👍

[Don D]

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.

Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

[Hossamania]

What are your end goals? What is "the next mod" that you want to do?
How many miles on the motor?

[Hossamania]

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.

Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

Too late, he already has the Wisecos.
I forgot, it was mentioned earlier that compression releases probably needed with 10:1 pistons. Just one more piece of the puzzle.

[Adam76]

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.

Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

Too late, he already has the Wisecos.
I forgot, it was mentioned earlier that compression releases probably needed with 10:1 pistons. Just one more piece of the puzzle.

No, just had the pistons in my shipping cart , not paid for yet.... so the options are still open.  Going with a little less comp does make sense. Cheers

[Hossamania]

What are your end goals? What is "the next mod" that you want to do?
How many miles on the motor?

Answering these will help with decisions.

[Adam76]

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.

Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

👍 thanks

[thumper 823]

As I stated in the beginning -
State the goals.
I always tell people to take a sheet of paper and write the end goal at the bottom of the page.
This eliminates throwing a bunch of unnecessary parts at a bike hoping for a better results.
Cams- are not an exact science as to what they will do on each bike.
Trying a slightly different one is a good idea if we are
searching for the best results.
Most are about 250.00 bucks a whack, pretty cheap in a performance add ons esp when I see people
buying the doofus crap like trap door air filters for 400 bucks!
Every time I see one of those I know I am looking at an wax and wash rider.

[Adam76]

What are your end goals? What is "the next mod" that you want to do?
How many miles on the motor?

Answering these will help with decisions.

Thanks,  only 20K miles on the bike, and to be honest I don't have any planes for future upgrades, but you just can't say never can you?  😊

[Adam76]

As I stated in the beginning -
State the goals.
I always tell people to take a sheet of paper and write the end goal at the bottom of the page.
This eliminates throwing a bunch of unnecessary parts at a bike hoping for a better results.
Cams- are not an exact science as to what they will do on each bike.
Trying a slightly different one is a good idea if we are
searching for the best results.
Most are about 250.00 bucks a whack, pretty cheap in a performance add ons esp when I see people
buying the doofus crap like trap door air filters for 400 bucks!
Every time I see one of those I know I am looking at an wax and wash rider.

Thanks thumper, very good point. I have through the various posts pretty much stated what I intend to use the bike for and how it aul be ridden.... I'm a middle of the ris's type of rider, not extreme and not sedentary. 

[Hossamania]

If you do not have concrete plans for the future, then build it properly now.
Horsepower is in the heads. Pick your cam, set the heads for it. Again, just my opinion.
Even if you are just going for pistons, the cylinders need to be checked and matched to them, some machining likely necessary. Are you measuring the cylinders before ordering? Measuring for out of round? Are you getting .010 over and machining to fit?
Your riding style has me recommending the 27, heads to match. Do the pistons later, they can be set up to work with your heads.
We didn't even talk about exhaust. What are you using?

[thumper 823]

My bike is 10.5 to 1 , with no CR release buttons, no start problems, with three lbs lithium 3 lb battery.
We ride all the way to Sturgis two up and heavy.
The weather is usually HOT.
Doing 90 MPH most the day through Nebraska and a couple of other states is quite the norm.
As I said -the devil is in the details  [attach=0,msg1341737] 
CHOOSE the right piston rings!  Not the 30 lb variety from brand X 
I am running 10 lbs of pull or push and that was B4 break-in!
No problems.
The last set I ran was  set @  15 lbs
Why people continue to use crap is more then I will understand.

[Hossamania]

And as I think about this, if it is all budget driven, leave it as is, save up, and do it as a whole package, pistons, heads, cam when you can.
You could just put a 27 in it now and ride, you would be happy with that simple and affordable upgrade. Then build around that cam, or go a different cam and build. You wouldn't be the first to have an extra cam on the shelf, or sell it for a couple bucks later.

[JW113]

 

Adam I looked through your prior posts and maybe I missed it, but I did not see that you stated what model bike this is. If it is rubber mount (FL, FXR, Dyna), then no worries about high rpm cams. If you are working on a rigid mount softail, my advice would be to stick to the low/mid rpm torque cams. That is, unless you like breaking chassis bolts and parts falling off...

-JW

[Adam76]

Adam I looked through your prior posts and maybe I missed it, but I did not see that you stated what model bike this is. If it is rubber mount (FL, FXR, Dyna), then no worries about high rpm cams. If you are working on a rigid mount softail, my advice would be to stick to the low/mid rpm torque cams. That is, unless you like breaking chassis bolts and parts falling off...

-JW

Sorry JW, is a 1996 heritage softail.  Not a light bike by any means, but not a touring bike either.  Low and midrange is what I'm looking for, just trying to get the best package together if I'm going to be pulling the engine down for pistons and some head work..... only want to do it once, my pockets aren't deep 😁

[Adam76]

If you do not have concrete plans for the future, then build it properly now.
Horsepower is in the heads. Pick your cam, set the heads for it.
Your riding style has me recommending the 27, heads to match.

If I'm ONLY doing the heads to match the 27 cam,  what exactly do you suggest that headwork includes?

Thank you  😆

[Adam76]

Deleted

[Adam76]

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.

Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

Sorry, I misunderstood your reply. So you're suggesting that if all I'm going to do to support the ev27 cam is simply drop in a high compression piston and leave the heads stock and deck height at whatever it ends up being,  I should go with the KB 9.5 rather that the Wiseco 10.1  ?
Thank you

[Arseclown]

Mate have you considered just changing the cam, cam bearing (and pushrods with adjustables if easier and/or required) and nothing else. Less money and stuffing about for a nice little bump in performance.

I don't know what work has been done to my evo and happy not to open it up to look but mine goes really well as is for me and from roll on acceleration tests with a mate who had some work done to his evo which is also much younger than mine mine goes noticeably better.

[Adam76]

Mate have you considered just changing the cam, cam bearing (and pushrods with adjustables if easier and/or required) and nothing else. Less money and stuffing about for a nice little bump in performance.

I don't know what work has been done to my evo and happy not to open it up to look but mine goes really well as is for me and from roll on acceleration tests with a mate who had some work done to his evo which is also much younger than mine mine goes noticeably better.

Hey mate, yes I had considered that, but always keep hearing about how much better tne evo motors go with a bit more compression. Especially when a cam is instated.

I've got a mate with two evos, one had the 27 cam installed and no other mods. And the second has recently been rebuilt also had the ev27 in it but in the rebuild he got some 9.5 KB pistons put in and he reckons three is a very significant difference between the two.....

What is your set up exactly? 
Cheers

[Arseclown]

Fair enough I understand. I don't have a lot of evo experience and know much more about twin cams.

Bought my evo on a whim and sight unseen when I was living overseas. I wanted a bike to ride when I was home on holidays. Mate had a 1996 evo bad boy springer and checked out this 1989 softail springer and he said it was better than his in every way despite mods to his.  Funnily enough his bad boy springer came from Perth and was a well looked after club bike. Mate and I are on the east coast though.

So bought it. It was imported from the USA about 6 years ago or so. Had all the import paperwork and was complied and registered here. Has 20k miles on it and the only non stock part about it was the dash surround. Still has oem headers. All ive changed is handle bars to mini apes and indicator lenses. It has slash cut mufflers which I'm gonna change over to tapered turbo mufflers. It has the original air cleaner cover but a k&n filter inside. Unsure if it's had a cam change or not but it goes really well. I haven't inspected the carb but can only presume it likely had jet changes because it runs so well with the stage 1 changes.

I think 1989 was the first year for the cv carb. And the oem camshaft used in later evo engines were changed and inferior, perhaps for emissions.

It's for sale on gumtree at the moment if you want to look. Don't really want to sell it but I don't have space for all my toys. I reckon it might take a while to sell in these times because lots of people doing it tough right now. I'm lucky I've still got work and money coming in as many don't.

[Adam76]

Yeah, tough times right now for all....

I think I'm going with most people's advice and not go too crazy and complicated.

I'm going to put the ev27 in it and swap out the pistons to 9.5 comp to get the best out of the motive and the cam and call it a day. Probably the most bang for the buck and gave a very nice streetable easy to ride bike.

[Arseclown]

Sounds good Adam. Good luck doing the work and hope it comes out ok. Guys here are so knowledgeable and helpful as long as you take the differences with our climate and fuel into account which probably aren't gonna matter much with your more basic plan now. I'm sure you'll keep us all updated on the work and outcome. All the best.

[Adam76]

Sounds good Adam. Good luck doing the work and hope it comes out ok. Guys here are so knowledgeable and helpful as long as you take the differences with our climate and fuel into account which probably aren't gonna matter much with your more basic plan now. I'm sure you'll keep us all updated on the work and outcome. All the best.

👍👍

[thumper 823]

We want to spend your money!
As I said it is a very slippery slope

[cheech]

I think I'm going with most people's advice and not go too crazy and complicated.

I'm going to put the ev27 in it and swap out the pistons to 9.5 comp to get the best out of the motive and the cam and call it a day. Probably the most bang for the buck and gave a very nice streetable easy to ride bike.

IMHO At the end of the day, you do this, you'll have a good strong running tolerant bike, Your butt will be satisfied, anything above and beyond such as head work or whatnot might net some more numbers on the dyno.
You do have to draw the line either with budget or just simply saying this is good enough.

[hbkeith]

Yeah, tough times right now for all....

I think I'm going with most people's advice and not go too crazy and complicated.

I'm going to put the ev27 in it and swap out the pistons to 9.5 comp to get the best out of the motive and the cam and call it a day. Probably the most bang for the buck and gave a very nice streetable easy to ride bike.

JMHO , the best bang for buck is deck the heads ,have them ported , leave the stock 200000 mile pistons in the bike , EV27

[Adam76]

Hi, thanks.
Yes decking and porting the heads is definitely a tried and true method that gets good results.
Exactly what kind of headwork would be done to compliment this cam only upgrade with the sick pistons??
Thanks.
I guess it's always something l could add in later stage down the track.

[Don D]

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.

Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

Sorry, I misunderstood your reply. So you're suggesting that if all I'm going to do to support the ev27 cam is simply drop in a high compression piston and leave the heads stock and deck height at whatever it ends up being,  I should go with the KB 9.5 rather that the Wiseco 10.1  ?
Thank you

I prefer the KB pistons and their hastings rings in that motor. Your wiseco will be fine however.
9.5 is a good number for the EV27. Headwork? Well all I typically do on those is a good valve job on the Serdi, the guides are usually not worn, and fix the ridge under the intake seats and a little work on the short turn. This is a $275 job I call a "Blueprint" and a little more if I CC the heads and/or replace the guides. They make 80hp and 90tq with a strong torque rise every time even with a stock CV rejetted. An adjustable ignition is a big bonus such as the Daytona Twin Tec 1005. Single fire with a 2,5 curve to start. No need for the VOES.

[Adam76]

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.

Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

Sorry, I misunderstood your reply. So you're suggesting that if all I'm going to do to support the ev27 cam is simply drop in a high compression piston and leave the heads stock and deck height at whatever it ends up being,  I should go with the KB 9.5 rather that the Wiseco 10.1  ?
Thank you

I prefer the KB pistons and their hastings rings in that motor. Your wiseco will be fine however.
9.5 is a good number for the EV27. Headwork? Well all I typically do on those is a good valve job on the Serdi, the guides are usually not worn, and fix the ridge under the intake seats and a little work on the short turn. This is a $275 job I call a "Blueprint" and a little more if I CC the heads and/or replace the guides. They make 80hp and 90tq with a strong torque rise every time even with a stock CV rejetted. An adjustable ignition is a big bonus such as the Daytona Twin Tec 1005. Single fire with a 2,5 curve to start. No need for the VOES.

Thanks HD, that's great to know -- I wish you were around the corner from me to drop my heads off for some work.

I do have the programmable Dyna 2000 ignition and coil so that will help. But l would definitely go for the $275 headwork if l had the option. The best head porter I know is 3000 kms away and freight is a big cost in the equation....

Cheers and happy Easter all.

[thumper 823]

Unshroud your exhaust valves, move the seats up, narrow them, deburr the ports, take about 0.50 to.70 of the heads. (virgin)
But remember performance mods is linear to overhaul schedule.
Notin is for free.

[Don D]

Everything you describe I do at the price I stated. It is nothing special, just a machine form tool valve job and top cut on the exhaust opens the wall up to unschroud the valve. Cutter looks similar to the one I attached but not the exact same.
The OP wants to use pistons instead of milling, OK fine too, it is a small dome and works well.

[Adam76]

Thanks guys, if l can find some one local to do the basic headwork that you are describing l will seriously look into it. Nothing fancy, just a clean up while the heads are off 😁

[thumper 823]

You can buy hard seat stuff used pretty cheaply here as fewer and fewer people do it.
Not sure about there..
A pilot, stone facer a few stones and the motor.
Prolly less than 300 bucks here.
A valve facer is almost not necessary anymore but I like to check the face even with new valves, plus I don't run 45 deg seats .
I refuse to use used valves as they live in proverbial hell.
A good machine if you look hard can be had for under 600 here.
These old Sioux machines may not be as nice as 200K dollar machine but it has worked for me for 50 years .
I have gradually moved up from dry stones to wet.
I started with dry when i was in my 20s   but about 30 years ago switched to the oil bath.
As I said it is all a slippery slope.
Once you take that step ....

[Hossamania]

I don't think Adam is looking to buy a machine and start working on heads...

[Don D]

As far as quality seats, valves and even the guides on most year evos are very high quality. If the margin is sufficient and stems not worn I have no issue grinding them on my Sunnen VR6500. I was told the exhaust valves are Inconel but have not verified that.

[JW113]

Adam, just my 2 cents. If I read this correctly, you have a softail that's just a reliable daily rider, and you want a little more kick when you twist the wick, rarely taken above 4500rpm. Point A to Point B with a little fun in between. This pretty much describes my '92 softail. Mine is also 9.5:1 done via 50 thou off the heads, using a Crane 300-2B cam which is more or less like an Andrews EV-13. No fancy port work, if you are not going to be reving it up, it doesn't need it. Not saying it will hurt, but it doesn't really add anything either. A HP or two, in the noise, unnoticeable in the real world. I say listen to your new Aussie pal Arseclown, keep it basic, ride it and have fun.

-JW

[thumper 823]

HEY!
We want to spend his money!  LOL

[Hossamania]

Well we had him up to a $3500 top end on an Evo!

[Ohio HD]

Adam, just my 2 cents. If I read this correctly, you have a softail that's just a reliable daily rider, and you want a little more kick when you twist the wick, rarely taken above 4500rpm. Point A to Point B with a little fun in between. This pretty much describes my '92 softail. Mine is also 9.5:1 done via 50 thou off the heads, using a Crane 300-2B cam which is more or less like an Andrews EV-13. No fancy port work, if you are not going to be reving it up, it doesn't need it. Not saying it will hurt, but it doesn't really add anything either. A HP or two, in the noise, unnoticeable in the real world. I say listen to your new Aussie pal Arseclown, keep it basic, ride it and have fun.

-JW

^^^^^^^^^
What he says.


   

[thumper 823]

AT the very beginning he was warned of the slippery slope and we barely got started.
I could quite is go though 5K doing this in just parts.
But some of us are just gearhead nutz!
I love watching twinks trying to catch me!
We are all victims of our own experiences, know-how, and what works for us.
For instance, -piston rings as I stated.  Why run 30 lbs of resistance and be turning all the energy into heat? 
It could be better used at the rear tire.
If an engine is being resisted by 30 lbs per stroke per piston that is a "*HOLE"  lot of energy up in smoke.  (*whole of course)
I hope it all goes well for you Adam and good luck.
Take special care of your piston rings no matter whose you use.  (go back to my thread)

[98fxstc]

Sounds good Adam. Good luck doing the work and hope it comes out ok. Guys here are so knowledgeable and helpful as long as you take the differences with our climate and fuel into account which probably aren't gonna matter much with your more basic plan now. I'm sure you'll keep us all updated on the work and outcome. All the best.

Don't take any notice of this crap.
This is the excuse that the local 'experts' on our hdforums australia trot out for not getting the same results with their builds.
Gas and climate and altitude vary much more in the US than they do in Australia.
A build comes down to the method and the combination of parts.

These guys in the US have been working on Harleys since they were old enough to ride and are happy to share their knowledge and experience.
The forum 'experts' in Australia regurgitate the crap that they pick up from the Dealers.

My first Evo mods were EV27 (a recommendation from Nightrider.com) and Crane Hi4 ignition, S&S lifters and Andrews adjustable push rods and lose the crossover exhaust.
My next step was SE heads and 10.5:1 pistons with SE57 cam.
I have zero deck and 0.027" head gasket for a beautiful running motor and about 90hp.
Not long after I built it I put it in the local Dealers dyno shootout and won the Evo section.
A few months later I did an Ironbutt 1000 Ride from Melbourne to Brisbane. Never missed a beat.
I rode solo from south of Tassie to Margaret River WA , crossed the Nullabor in stinkin' heat and never missed a beat.

I have a 09 110 Fatbob at 126hp, 118 ftlb built with tips and information gleaned from this site.
You will get the same results as these guys if you listen and learn.

You were looking at 0.030" hg , then went back out to 0.035''
0.030 is better for combustion efficiency and a sweeter running bike.

And when you finish get it tuned.
By someone who knows what they are doing.

[Adam76]

Adam, just my 2 cents. If I read this correctly, you have a softail that's just a reliable daily rider, and you want a little more kick when you twist the wick, rarely taken above 4500rpm. Point A to Point B with a little fun in between. This pretty much describes my '92 softail. Mine is also 9.5:1 done via 50 thou off the heads, using a Crane 300-2B cam which is more or less like an Andrews EV-13. No fancy port work, if you are not going to be reving it up, it doesn't need it. Not saying it will hurt, but it doesn't really add anything either. A HP or two, in the noise, unnoticeable in the real world. I say listen to your new Aussie pal Arseclown, keep it basic, ride it and have fun.

-JW

Hey JW,  I think you have our summed up pretty good.
Cheers

[Adam76]

Sounds good Adam. Good luck doing the work and hope it comes out ok. Guys here are so knowledgeable and helpful as long as you take the differences with our climate and fuel into account which probably aren't gonna matter much with your more basic plan now. I'm sure you'll keep us all updated on the work and outcome. All the best.

Don't take any notice of this crap.
This is the excuse that the local 'experts' on our hdforums australia trot out for not getting the same results with their builds.
Gas and climate and altitude vary much more in the US than they do in Australia.
A build comes down to the method and the combination of parts.

These guys in the US have been working on Harleys since they were old enough to ride and are happy to share their knowledge and experience.
The forum 'experts' in Australia regurgitate the crap that they pick up from the Dealers.

My first Evo mods were EV27 (a recommendation from Nightrider.com) and Crane Hi4 ignition, S&S lifters and Andrews adjustable push rods and lose the crossover exhaust.
My next step was SE heads and 10.5:1 pistons with SE57 cam.
I have zero deck and 0.027" head gasket for a beautiful running motor and about 90hp.
Not long after I built it I put it in the local Dealers dyno shootout and won the Evo section.
A few months later I did an Ironbutt 1000 Ride from Melbourne to Brisbane. Never missed a beat.
I rode solo from south of Tassie to Margaret River WA , crossed the Nullabor in stinkin' heat and never missed a beat.

I have a 09 110 Fatbob at 126hp, 118 ftlb built with tips and information gleaned from this site.
You will get the same results as these guys if you listen and learn.

You were looking at 0.030" hg , then went back out to 0.035''
0.030 is better for combustion efficiency and a sweeter running bike.

And when you finish get it tuned.
By someone who knows what they are doing.

Hey 98, thanks for the input.... now you've thrown a cat amongst the pigeons.... 😁.
I was all set at the beginning to do a 10.1 comp build but got scared out of it... Oh well. I'm sure I'll be happy with my basic build.
Cheers.  👍

[Arseclown]

Where I live sees sub 30 degrees Fahrenheit in winter and up to 115 degrees in summer. And it's an urban location (not a dessert).  And I can go riding not too far from home like I do to visit family regularly and higher octane fuel is not available. Unsure how many places in the USA have that environment other than desserts. And then the variation in cost (exchange rate and freight) and availability of expert tuners. How many expert tuners in perth where the op lives? How many reputable Harley head guys there too?

I'm no expert on anything but the factors above matter to me and where I live and travel regularly (not just on a one off trip). It may or may not matter to the op but I'm sure he'll make his own mind.

Notice I could say that without attitude. Lots of things to learn here.

[Don D]

It isn't all that hard to move up the ladder as explained in nightrider.com. My go to cam back in the day after the EV27 wasn't enough was the Crane H286-2B at 10.5:1. That with the SE performance heads would get you 90+hp and now be looking at a bigger carb, E or Mik 42, for more power. Back in the day the SE heads were a fair value compared to what shops were charging to weld and rework the stock heads to get them to work. Time moves on and there are different and better ways today, plus the SE heads are gone unless you find them used and they are decent.  Doug Coffey did a nice job on the stock heads years ago and had a good solution for the wall next to the valves, The heads ended up at 72cc IIRC and he had special domes to fit the chamber.

[Adam76]

It isn't all that hard to move up the ladder as explained in nightrider.com. My go to cam back in the day after the EV27 wasn't enough was the Crane H286-2B at 10.5:1. That with the SE performance heads would get you 90+hp and now be looking at a bigger carb, E or Mik 42, for more power. Back in the day the SE heads were a fair value compared to what shops were charging to weld and rework the stock heads to get them to work. Time moves on and there are different and better ways today, plus the SE heads are gone unless you find them used and they are decent.  Doug Coffey did a nice job on the stock heads years ago and had a good solution for the wall next to the valves, The heads ended up at 72cc IIRC and he had special domes to fit the chamber.

Appreciate the feedback and experience you have , but this level of complexity of build is definitely not what I'm looking for.  I need a simple and reliable combo which I think I now have.
Thanks

[Adam76]

Where I live sees sub 30 degrees Fahrenheit in winter and up to 115 degrees in summer. And it's an urban location (not a dessert).  And I can go riding not too far from home like I do to visit family regularly and higher octane fuel is not available. Unsure how many places in the USA have that environment other than desserts. And then the variation in cost (exchange rate and freight) and availability of expert tuners. How many expert tuners in perth where the op lives? How many reputable Harley head guys there too?

I'm no expert on anything but the factors above matter to me and where I live and travel regularly (not just on a one off trip). It may or may not matter to the op but I'm sure he'll make his own mind.

Notice I could say that without attitude. Lots of things to learn here.

Thanks mate, and is great to see posts where opinions differ without any attitude or insult.
Cheers

[98fxstc]

Where I live sees sub 30 degrees Fahrenheit in winter and up to 115 degrees in summer. And it's an urban location (not a dessert).  And I can go riding not too far from home like I do to visit family regularly and higher octane fuel is not available. Unsure how many places in the USA have that environment other than desserts. And then the variation in cost (exchange rate and freight) and availability of expert tuners. How many expert tuners in perth where the op lives? How many reputable Harley head guys there too?

I'm no expert on anything but the factors above matter to me and where I live and travel regularly (not just on a one off trip). It may or may not matter to the op but I'm sure he'll make his own mind.

Notice I could say that without attitude. Lots of things to learn here.

The temperature where I live varies from 0° to 40°C  (32° to 105° F) and I ride all year round.
I have ridden at 0° in the Central Highlands in the middle of winter and I have ridden from one end of the state to the other when the tar snakes were melting and some bitumen repairs were moving under the wheels.
We can run equivalent compression here to what they run in the US
I tune my Fatbob with TTS and put it on the dyno to do WOT and get final numbers.
My ccp is 220psi and my bike runs happily on 95 and I can go to 92 or 98 with no problems.
Anyone who believes they have to run their bike on 98 is having a lend of themselves.

Back to Adam's bike:
Once he gets his compression worked out, any competent Auto head shop should be able to shave the heads and cc them.
Any dyno shop can check the tune with a tailpipe sniffer and swap the jets.
Then again there is a shop at Mundaring, less than 30 kms from Perth where one of the country's top Tuners operates.

[Adam76]

Where I live sees sub 30 degrees Fahrenheit in winter and up to 115 degrees in summer. And it's an urban location (not a dessert).  And I can go riding not too far from home like I do to visit family regularly and higher octane fuel is not available. Unsure how many places in the USA have that environment other than desserts. And then the variation in cost (exchange rate and freight) and availability of expert tuners. How many expert tuners in perth where the op lives? How many reputable Harley head guys there too?

I'm no expert on anything but the factors above matter to me and where I live and travel regularly (not just on a one off trip). It may or may not matter to the op but I'm sure he'll make his own mind.

Notice I could say that without attitude. Lots of things to learn here.

The temperature where I live varies from 0° to 40°C  (32° to 105° F) and I ride all year round.
I have ridden at 0° in the Central Highlands in the middle of winter and I have ridden from one end of the state to the other when the tar snakes were melting and some bitumen repairs were moving under the wheels.
We can run equivalent compression here to what they run in the US
I tune my Fatbob with TTS and put it on the dyno to do WOT and get final numbers.
My ccp is 220psi and my bike runs happily on 95 and I can go to 92 or 98 with no problems.
Anyone who believes they have to run their bike on 98 is having a lend of themselves.

Back to Adam's bike:
Once he gets his compression worked out, any competent Auto head shop should be able to shave the heads and cc them.
Any dyno shop can check the tune with a tailpipe sniffer and swap the jets.
Then again there is a shop at Mundaring, less than 30 kms from Perth where one of the country's top Tuners operates.

98, appreciate the input.
With such a simple build like mine, is cc'ing the heads even worth it? What should they be cc'ed down to?
The workshop and dyno tuner you're referring to has changed hands.

And also, how do you get your bike to 220psi and not have pinging issues??
Cheers

[jsachs1]

Everything you describe I do at the price I stated. It is nothing special, just a machine form tool valve job and top cut on the exhaust opens the wall up to unschroud the valve. Cutter looks similar to the one I attached but not the exact same.
The OP wants to use pistons instead of milling, OK fine too, it is a small dome and works well.

Serdi # 620 is the one I use. Very versatile.
John

[thumper 823]

"Salip-rery slope>"  LOL
If you are going to run a higher Cr ratio I would install AFR gauge .
It brings me much comfort.
Takes the guesswork out of carb tunning and the system can be monitored.

[Adam76]

For instance, -piston rings as I stated.  Why run 30 lbs of resistance and be turning all the energy into heat?
It could be better used at the rear tire.
If an engine is being resisted by 30 lbs per stroke per piston that is a "*HOLE"  lot of energy up in smoke.  (*whole of course)
I hope it all goes well for you Adam and good luck.
Take special care of your piston rings no matter whose you use.  (go back to my thread)

Hey thumper, can you please explain what you mean with the piston rings and their resistance , and how to avoid it?  My KB forged pistons come with a set of rings....
Thanks 👍

[thumper 823]

All resistance in an engine is a waste. So one tries to minimize the losses.
Stock piston rings will take up to and even over (depending on brand) 30 pounds and more to push the piston dwn the cylinder.!! [attach=0,msg1342611]
This is wasted power and it all goes up in friction which is heat.
Ideally, you would have zero resistance in a purrfect world which we have not done yet..
A good ring pack will net a lot less if you ask for it,  some are adjustable by bending the oil control ring tabs slightly in.
also, note there is a "right-side-up using the typical  oil control ring spacer
most of these points are very much overlooked all the time to a person that wants to slam on a set of big-bore /high CR slugs .
The devil is in the details .
Note the special coating on the piston? [attach=1,msg1342611]
adjusting ring drag [attach=3,msg1342611]

[Adam76]

Thanks thumper, that's great info.  👍

[Racepres]

Thanks thumper, that's great info.  👍

Been doing it for years... But, be aware... I do Not do that with street motors anymore... good way to make an oil burner... or... carry on if ya don't care about a bit of Smoke at lower cylinder pressures [Idle]

[thumper 823]

I had 20k on the last rebuild.It never burned drop a drop. I had them set at 15 pounds.
Every internet guy said the same thing to me too. It might be true for the aluminum cylinders as they move and change shape.
The nodular type are solid.
Last year I went to 10 lbs of drag.
Still no problems.
The devil is in the details I say over and over again.
Dont INSTALL rings with out a proper ring expander either as doing so with fingers deforms them.
Did i say the devil is in the details?
RINGS and exhaust valves are the hardest working parts in any engine.
Take time to understand more then the average instructions.

[Racepres]

I had 20k on the last rebuild.It never burned drop a drop. I had them set at 15 pounds.
Every internet guy said the same thing to me too. It might be true for the aluminum cylinders as they move and change shape.
The nodular type are solid.
Last year I went to 10 lbs of drag.
Still no problems.
The devil is in the details I say over and over again.
Dont INSTALL rings with out a proper ring expander either as doing so with fingers deforms them.
Did i say the devil is in the details?
RINGS and exhaust valves are the hardest working parts in any engine.
Take time to understand more then the average instructions.

Yup...Average instructions... last bike we reduced Oil ring "drag" on,  set 7 National records!!!
We shoulda done better...

[thumper 823]

Yup...Average instructions... last bike we reduced Oil ring "drag" on,  set 7 National records!!!
We shoulda done better...
[/quote]


Are you being cantankerous ??

If so-
This really gets old .
If you want to post what you know please do so.
We are all here to learn.
I pass on what works for me .
Simple.
I don't need to jade anyone.
In this forum, I /we pass on what we have learned. I don't repeat internet chatter, or try to be an armchair racer which I am not.
I post from experience with my stuff.
Yes you know it all cause you are on a quarter-mile ticket, hats off, the rest of us are just plain ass stupid.
Right?
LOL
Maybe you should have done better?
IDK and don't care.
Are you being caustic and sarcastic about the piston rings friction?
No amount of ring friction is going to match the force generated by the outward ring force generated at TDC on the compression/power stroke.
What we can do is recoup the losses on the exhaust to intake stroke.
There is no reason for a good ring pack to allow blow-by.
I have the living proof right here anyone can come see, come look.
I have the picture of the scale pressing the piston dwn
This all works for me!
As I said- i don't run AL cylinders which may allow this all of this to work.

I/we actually ride this bike top Sturgis and everywhere and trailer it no fkn where.
The point is you cannot build a street engine for the race track and versa visa.
You can reach a lot of pf compromises and get a very good street engine.
I run 50 deg seats and a LOT of other little mods , Very unheard of on the street.

Do I expect 100K out of this thing?
Hell no.
If you make a lot of mods and ask a lot from any engine, should you expect to be a high mileage machine?
NO
The devil is the details?

Yes,  they are!    And TBO is linear  (time B4 overhaul)
The more asked the less time and miles  it will give you.
I don't expect 100K miles out of my machine as it is way over one to one. Does anyone Notice  HD build to about 65%?
If you get near or past one to one,  the overhaul line on the graph gets shorter and shorter

I am not here to Bragg not even one OZ of anything.
So I will agree to disagree with your snide remark if it was- if not I had a good rant -LOL

[thumper 823]

 [attach=0,msg1342719]  [attach=1,msg1342719]  [attach=2,msg1342719]  [attach=3,msg1342719]

showing 0.026 squish,
Ceramic parts, magic skirts all done at Swains .
Lightened balanced pistons  all done in my caveman two-car garage

[JW113]

Huh???

Adam, ignore all that, I don't think any of it applies to what you are trying to do with your bike. I think you're on the right course, so steady as she goes.

-JW

[thumper 823]

I have run the D.M 530 Cam B4 and it pulls really well.
No complaints.
It works great even on my bike which is Heavy and two-up touring machine.
It is sort of a bolt in. I think Dave recommends better springs.
Coil bind and rocker clearance ETC should always be checked anyway.
Always replace your cam bearing with any cam if yours has not already been replaced.
People argue this point with me and feel free too-
I had a problem with the pinion nut coming  loose on my bike! 
That is why I took it apart at 20K (slightly bent valves ) and I mean ever so slightly
With this rebuild and a bigger cam, I followed all the golden rules checked the TIR ETC( which is 3.5 thou) Using Fueling measuring jig, not a  cobbed apparatus.
Then...and then I tigged  the nut it in two spots     LOL
I dont want this to EVER happen again.
I can quite EZ grind the welds off when the time comes.
That pinion Nut is so small and the woodruff key that locks the pinion gear is only a hangnail of protrusion...
I will not ever trust another with an above-average bump stick.
You all carry on.
We love to help spend your money!

[Deye76]

Huh???

Adam, ignore all that, I don't think any of it applies to what you are trying to do with your bike. I think you're on the right course, so steady as she goes.

-JW

As usual JW113 giving practical, street usable information.
Who gives a flyin' flip about what someone did on the track years ago. Doesn't come close to applying to what the OP is trying to accomplish.

[Adam76]

Thanks guys, I think I pretty much have the cam / compression sorted. Keeping it real simple and very practical for budget and streetability reasons.
It will be either ev27 with 9.5 forged pistons, 0.032 squish at 9.5 comp and heads cc'd at 83, 183ccp,  9.2 dynamic comp

Or DME 500 with 10.1 Wiseco pistons, 0.032 squish set at 9.9 static comp and 9.2 dynamic comp 191 ccp.

Both will be great builds I'm sure and definitely pushing the upper limits of how far I want to go with this build. Also doing this with no headwork.

I'd like to go with the DME 500 build if I can even though I can't find a single mild build with this cam.  Maybe I'll be the test mule 😀

Thanks again for all the advice, I'll be starting a thread during the build as I'm sure I'll need a tip or two.

Cheers

[JW113]

 

-JW

[tdrglide]

If you do go with a DME 500, let us know how it performs. I run a andrews 27 in my fxr at 9.5. Runs great. Lot of fun. I've thought about trying the DME 500. Might be a little bit better on the super slab.

[nmainehunter]

I have run both of the cams, EV27 and EV46 in my 95 FX springer. I have 10-1 Wiseco pistons and .030 gaskets and a Dyna 2000 ignition. I put the 46 in last winter for a change in scenery but I'm taking it out and putting the 27 back in. Not that there is anything wrong with the 46 but my riding style has me under 3 grand a lot and this cam really like the revs. For what the 46 delivers the 27 gives it a good run for it's money but in a broader window.

[JW113]

EV-46 is happier north of 4000rpm. FXR and Dyna cam. My '92 cam with a EV-46. Now has a Crane 300-2B. IMHO, much more practical in a Evo Softail for all around use. Drag race? Nope. Ride it to Key West and back, no problem.

-JW

[thumper 823]

https://www.davemackie.com/cams.html

As I said i ran this one for three  years .
It hauls the mail!
It does suggest HIPO springs -I thought it needed the guides shortened -nope

I suggest you look at this again.




DM530   INTAKE   28   42   .530   .221   250°   97°   Excellent for 80, 88 and 89 inchers. Likes 8.5 to 10.0 C.R. 2000 to 6000+. High performance springs recommended.
EXHAUST   55   15   .530   .141   250°   110°

[Hossamania]

https://www.davemackie.com/cams.html

As I said i ran this one for three  years .
It hauls the mail!
It does suggest HIPO springs -I thought it needed the guides shortened -nope

I suggest you look at this again.




DM530   INTAKE   28   42   .530   .221   250°   97°   Excellent for 80, 88 and 89 inchers. Likes 8.5 to 10.0 C.R. 2000 to 6000+. High performance springs recommended.
EXHAUST   55   15   .530   .141   250°   110°

The op is doing no headwork, so hipo springs are out, that puts that cam out of the list.

[Adam76]

Looks like a great performing cam with the right compression and the supporting components. But probably just outside of the realm of this build..... have to draw the line somewhere l guess.
Cheers

[Adam76]

Huh???

Adam, ignore all that, I don't think any of it applies to what you are trying to do with your bike. I think you're on the right course, so steady as she goes.

-JW

As usual JW113 giving practical, street usable information.
Who gives a flyin' flip about what someone did on the track years ago. Doesn't come close to applying to what the OP is trying to accomplish.

Hi Deye, thanks for your input.

With the ev27 cam set up at 9.5 comp, with the heads cc'd at 83...... is any other type of basic headwork going to improve things or be worth while? I keep reading about 3 or 5 angle valve jobs and unshrouding the ports (whatever that means). I don't want to spend money on a pretty mild build unless it's going to make a real world benefit. Cost to benefit ratio if you know what i mean.

What do you suggest regarding headwork?
Thanks Adam

[Racepres]

Huh???

Adam, ignore all that, I don't think any of it applies to what you are trying to do with your bike. I think you're on the right course, so steady as she goes.

-JW

As usual JW113 giving practical, street usable information.
Who gives a flyin' flip about what someone did on the track years ago. Doesn't come close to applying to what the OP is trying to accomplish.

Hi Deye, thanks for your input.

With the ev27 cam set up at 9.5 comp, with the heads cc'd at 83...... is any other type of basic headwork going to improve things or be worth while? I keep reading about 3 or 5 angle valve jobs and unshrouding the ports (whatever that means). I don't want to spend money on a pretty mild build unless it's going to make a real world benefit. Cost to benefit ratio if you know what i mean.

What do you suggest regarding headwork?
Thanks Adam

Any Old school Indy will be able to do at minimum a 3 angle valve job... the Only way to do it Right... unless you have a Serti or something!!!It is mapped out in the "Book" and beats the Crap out of "Lapping" which to me... is just Silly!!!

[Adam76]

Huh???

Adam, ignore all that, I don't think any of it applies to what you are trying to do with your bike. I think you're on the right course, so steady as she goes.

-JW

As usual JW113 giving practical, street usable information.
Who gives a flyin' flip about what someone did on the track years ago. Doesn't come close to applying to what the OP is trying to accomplish.

Hi Deye, thanks for your input.

With the ev27 cam set up at 9.5 comp, with the heads cc'd at 83...... is any other type of basic headwork going to improve things or be worth while? I keep reading about 3 or 5 angle valve jobs and unshrouding the ports (whatever that means). I don't want to spend money on a pretty mild build unless it's going to make a real world benefit. Cost to benefit ratio if you know what i mean.

What do you suggest regarding headwork?
Thanks Adam

Any Old school Indy will be able to do at minimum a 3 angle valve job... the Only way to do it Right... unless you have a Serti or something!!!It is mapped out in the "Book" and beats the Crap out of "Lapping" which to me... is just Silly!!!

Thanks racepress..... what is "the book"  ?
We don't have any old school indys that I know of around here, and my question really is - is it worth doing in a build like mine? I'm happy to pay $350 for a valve job etc if it actually makes a difference in a mild build.

If I was doing a higher compression build with a higher lift cam then I would think it would be definitely necessary to get the most out of the entire build.

Cheers.

[thumper 823]

 3 angle is a very simple standard valve to hard seat angles typically 30 , 45, 60
45 is the contact where the seat width is adjusted.

The power is in multi-angles, back cutting, unshroud the valve if needed.    On and on and on I / we can go.
As i said i now use 50 deg seats.
Usually and always there is a compromise somewhere to every gain.

You can study this for a few hours on the net every single night for homework.
If you use tulip valves they are said to flow more.
Back to you,- if you are removing springs I would replace guide stem seal just because you are there.
Don't forget to check your Spring HT  if changing springs.
This is a simple operation and most any machine shop can do it if you don't know-how.

[FXDBI]

Adam PM up FSG he is in Australia he might be able to hook you up with some one to freshen up your heads for you.   Bob

[Racepres]

Thanks racepress..... what is "the book"  ?
We don't have any old school indys that I know of around here, and my question really is - is it worth doing in a build like mine? I'm happy to pay $350 for a valve job etc if it actually makes a difference in a mild build.

If I was doing a higher compression build with a higher lift cam then I would think it would be definitely necessary to get the most out of the entire build.

Cheers.

The book is the service manual.. it shows exactly what should be done...and if done properly...yes it does make a Difference..
on valve guide seals i do Not see how you could remove a Valve without compromising the seal, let alone shoving the seat grinding pilot in and out... get new seals ans Install Properly... that Damn Book again!!!!

[thumper 823]

I have 4 seals brand new from granger here if you want them free!  PM me an address.

[Adam76]

Thanks racepress..... what is "the book"  ?
We don't have any old school indys that I know of around here, and my question really is - is it worth doing in a build like mine? I'm happy to pay $350 for a valve job etc if it actually makes a difference in a mild build.

If I was doing a higher compression build with a higher lift cam then I would think it would be definitely necessary to get the most out of the entire build.

Cheers.

The book is the service manual.. it shows exactly what should be done...and if done properly...yes it does make a Difference..
on valve guide seals i do Not see how you could remove a Valve without compromising the seal, let alone shoving the seat grinding pilot in and out... get new seals ans Install Properly... that Damn Book again!!!!

Ahhh the book. Yes I have a Haynes manual because I could not find or buy a genuine Harley workshop manual for love or money.

One more question,  at what ccp do ypu need to ijnstall compression releases?  180?  185? 190? 
Thank

[Adam76]

3 angle is a very simple standard valve to hard seat angles typically 30 , 45, 60
45 is the contact where the seat width is adjusted.

The power is in multi-angles, back cutting, unshroud the valve if needed.    On and on and on I / we can go.
As i said i now use 50 deg seats.
Usually and always there is a compromise somewhere to every gain.

You can study this for a few hours on the net every single night for homework.
If you use tulip valves they are said to flow more.
Back to you,- if you are removing springs I would replace guide stem seal just because you are there.
Don't forget to check your Spring HT  if changing springs.
This is a simple operation and most any machine shop can do it if you don't know-how.

👍  thanks thumper

[Adam76]

Adam PM up FSG he is in Australia he might be able to hook you up with some one to freshen up your heads for you.   Bob

Hey Bob, thanks for that, l hadn't spoken to FSG for a long time.
Cheers

[Adam76]

I have 4 seals brand new from granger here if you want them free!  PM me an address.

Thanks, will pm you

[thumper 823]

One more question,  at what ccp do ypu need to ijnstall compression releases?  180?  185? 190?


They are mostly sold to people who have cams for the wrong application AFAIAC
Others may have other opinions and that is OK too
I would spend my money on double plus heads and ignition, not buttons.
Anyway, you don't need them, cause I don't use them.  !  LOL

Static CCR is determined by several things-  Stroke, bore, piston ring placement, CC volume @ TDC  and a couple more things
Next the cam also determines CR in the real world.

Illustration? Listen to a Lumpy Old school dragster or Hot rod motor.
With  both valves  open for so long it has no power low RPM and low compression until VE is achieved (high RPM)
SO, The wrong cam will make CR at the wrong RPM range.
Plus as I said that is why I had to change cams as everything was fine,,,,,,, until I raised to Ports up  1/2 inch . (and some other stuff)
Now I had the tink tinks at Low RPM with mid throttle.
This porting raising raised my CR UP! with same cam and pistons etc

Hope this helps
I am not the end-all, others have good info on here too.  To this point, I have not seen anyone give you bad information -There are other places full of shet.
One place has members - idiots follow  BS and advice that they have all read elsewhere and try to sound like experts.
Thankfully they have not shown here.
Tis a great crew here!
I might be the worse as I want to spend your money!

[Adam76]

Haha.... yes thumper, you are very good at spending my money.  😆

[Racepres]

I think Thumpers is tying to say... You should not require Compression releases if you do things [certainly Cams] the right way..I have a 74 inch gas Harley that has been High 9's @135MPH 1/4mi... no Releases!!! Used them "Holes" for Spark Plugs!!!!

[thumper 823]

I think Thumpers is tying to say... You should not require Compression releases if you do things [certainly Cams] the right way..I have a 74 inch gas Harley that has been High 9's @135MPH 1/4mi... no Releases!!! Used them "Holes" for Spark Plugs!!!!

Absolutely correct!

9s?
That is dam fast!  I would love to know your blueprint. ( or anyones but mine )My secrets if I have any, I have prolly stolen from someone else !  LOL
Are you running and CF parts?  Wheels??
I have to admit my weakness....lightweight parts  !   LOL

[Racepres]

I think Thumpers is tying to say... You should not require Compression releases if you do things [certainly Cams] the right way..I have a 74 inch gas Harley that has been High 9's @135MPH 1/4mi... no Releases!!! Used them "Holes" for Spark Plugs!!!!

Absolutely correct!

9s?
That is dam fast!  I would love to know your blueprint. ( or anyones but mine )My secrets if I have any, I have prolly stolen from someone else !  LOL
Are you running and CF parts?  Wheels??
I have to admit my weakness....lightweight parts  !   LOL

Yup, and some other off the wall "experimental" stuff ... Besides... it is an IronHead!!!!!
can't hardly get any Parts Now...
[attach=0,msg1343457]

That is a Picture from a 135MPH pass... But Not a 9... 10.03 or 6 or Sumpin!!! Nuff to win tho!!!!
She was always good for a Flat 10

[thumper 823]

I see you have sparky plugs on the wrong side too.
What CF parts are you invested in? 
wheels?
swing arm?
?

[Racepres]

I see you have sparky plugs on the wrong side too.
What CF parts are you invested in? 
wheels?
swing arm?
?

IDK what CF parts is... but if that means Custom and one off... Alot!!! No real swingarm on that one... it is a Two Wheel travel [Dave Feazel] Chassis, 8 inch Good Year Slick,  on a Custom PMFR wheel's,  Cheriani fork,  custom trees, PM Brakes... sometimes change to Gramica...I make the Tank Shells, don't recall where the cute little fairing came from... Two Wheel Travel did the seat..and the Clip-ons..
I fabbed an Off board bearing support.
The Engine... 3.5 bore 3.875 Stroke... Some Over bore... she is Pushing 76 Inches ... the limit by rule then for a Sportster.
Unobtainium nail headed Valves... Secret Cams and Headwork by RHC [RIP Ron] Bored and modified S&S "G", custom velocity stack. MSD Ignition... I fabbed the pipes... change about every race till I got that figured out!!
Anything else???

[JW113]

One more question,  at what ccp do ypu need to ijnstall compression releases?  180?  185? 190? 

You install them if the starter won't turn the bike over. Often the case when the compression ratio is high, the bike is hot but sat for several minutes, and the tappets bleed down. S&S tappet travel limiters usually solve that.

In your case, don't worry about it. I don't think you're going to need any of it.

-JW

[thumper 823]

All good to know
CF=  Carbon Fiber parts

[turboprop]

Good grief.

[Adam76]

One more question,  at what ccp do ypu need to ijnstall compression releases?  180?  185? 190? 

You install them if the starter won't turn the bike over. Often the case when the compression ratio is high, the bike is hot but sat for several minutes, and the tappets bleed down. S&S tappet travel limiters usually solve that.

In your case, don't worry about it. I don't think you're going to need any of it.

-JW

Thanks JW, so I'm ok at 183 ccp?
Cheers

[Deye76]

"Keeping it real simple and very practical for budget and streetability reasons."

Then you ask me about "head work". 

[Racepres]

All good to know
CF=  Carbon Fiber parts

LOL... In 1996? None!!!!

[JW113]

Thanks JW, so I'm ok at 183 ccp?

Yep.

-JW

(p.s. lay off the calculators...)

[Adam76]

"Keeping it real simple and very practical for budget and streetability reasons."

Then you ask me about "head work". 

Sorry, if you misunderstood.

I was basically asking if I did go ahead and include basic headwork to the build, how much difference would it make and would it be worth it... that's all.

Thanks. But I'm guessing not.

[Adam76]

Thanks JW, so I'm ok at 183 ccp?

Yep.

-JW

(p.s. lay off the calculators...)

Cheers, yes l definitely need to lay off the calculators.... making my brain hurt

[thumper 823]

The trouble is, is what is basic?
It will mean different things to different people.
The three angle typical street valve grind settings are pretty basic.
It is all a very slippery slope from here as I have said.
If you pop off your springs you can at least check your you stem to guide wear, polish the backside of the valves .
Replace the stem seals.
look at the seat width...now we are well onto the "devil is in the details" which are getting way out of your parameters.
Wide seats for the million-mile bike
Narrow seats for the sport-minded ......needless to say I will stop.

[JW113]

For your application as I understand it, head work is a waste of money. But it's you're money, so you need to decide how to spend it to get the most return on investment. Have to point out once again, softail, rigid mount, probably not going to be banging a 6500rpm rev limiter very often if ever...

-JW

[Adam76]

For your application as I understand it, head work is a waste of money. But it's you're money, so you need to decide how to spend it to get the most return on investment. Have to point out once again, softail, rigid mount, probably not going to be banging a 6500rpm rev limiter very often if ever...

-JW

Thanks JW,   appreciate your keeping it real and keeping my feet on the ground  😂

[Adam76]

[attach=0,msg1341541] I just finished the heads for this build today. K.B. 9 cc dome pistons, 83 cc heads, EV 27 cam, .030" head gaskets. Should be 9.5:1 compression and 9.0:1 corrected  It will be together early next week.
John

Hey John, just curious with your builds like this one, do you ever suggest or use a good programmable ignition and single fire coil?  Does it add anything to the outcome?  Or is it really only helpful for more complex higher comp builds?
Thanks Adam

[thumper 823]

I use Daytona twinn tech as it allows you all sorts of options and dual plug if you ever want.
Plus it is SIMPLE

[hbkeith]

of all the EVO,s ive had , a REAL ( not a $350 one )port job did more than anything

[Racepres]

of all the EVO,s ive had , a REAL ( not a $350 one )port job did more than anything

Not without the Cam and Intake and even Pipe that compliment it... BTDT

[remington007]

We did a lot of Wiseco 10-1's with EV 27's back in the day. One thing i have not seen mentioned is to change the VOES setting to 6" HG. That will change to the retard curve in the ignition sooner. I think Softails stock are around 3 to 4" HG.

[jsachs1]

[attach=0,msg1341541] I just finished the heads for this build today. K.B. 9 cc dome pistons, 83 cc heads, EV 27 cam, .030" head gaskets. Should be 9.5:1 compression and 9.0:1 corrected  It will be together early next week.
John

Hey John, just curious with your builds like this one, do you ever suggest or use a good programmable ignition and single fire coil?  Does it add anything to the outcome?  Or is it really only helpful for more complex higher comp builds?
Thanks Adam

This bike rolled in with a non programable SE ign. module. Since the bike is 1 in the owners collection, I'll just set up the VOES, and leave all else as is. If it was going to be a hot rod, I would change it to programable.
John

[98fxstc]

[attach=0,msg1341541] I just finished the heads for this build today. K.B. 9 cc dome pistons, 83 cc heads, EV 27 cam, .030" head gaskets. Should be 9.5:1 compression and 9.0:1 corrected  It will be together early next week.
John

Hey John, just curious with your builds like this one, do you ever suggest or use a good programmable ignition and single fire coil?  Does it add anything to the outcome?  Or is it really only helpful for more complex higher comp builds?
Thanks Adam

This bike rolled in with a non programable SE ign. module. Since the bike is 1 in the owners collection, I'll just set up the VOES, and leave all else as is. If it was going to be a hot rod, I would change it to programable.
John

What was ccp on that one John ?

[Adam76]

of all the EVO,s ive had , a REAL ( not a $350 one )port job did more than anything

Thanks, when you say a REAL port job did more than anything else, what exactly do you mean? What did it really do above what was already achieved?
And what do you consider a "real" port job?
Cheers

[Adam76]

[attach=0,msg1341541] I just finished the heads for this build today. K.B. 9 cc dome pistons, 83 cc heads, EV 27 cam, .030" head gaskets. Should be 9.5:1 compression and 9.0:1 corrected  It will be together early next week.
John

Hey John, just curious with your builds like this one, do you ever suggest or use a good programmable ignition and single fire coil?  Does it add anything to the outcome?  Or is it really only helpful for more complex higher comp builds?
Thanks Adam

This bike rolled in with a non programable SE ign. module. Since the bike is 1 in the owners collection, I'll just set up the VOES, and leave all else as is. If it was going to be a hot rod, I would change it to programable.
John

What was ccp on that one John ?

98,  with that build bigboyz calc says  183ccp.  Be interesting to see what it actually comes out at.

[JW113]

Thanks, when you say a REAL port job did more than anything else, what exactly do you mean? What did it really do above what was already achieved?
And what do you consider a "real" port job?
Cheers

He means somebody with flow bench, knows what he's doing, and maybe 700 to 1500 bucks later, has heads that flow gobs of air north of 6000 rpm.

Mr. Tractor Motor, is that what you are after? Or just a nice running Softail that is fun to ride on a daily basis? Your money. Don't listen to these guys. Don't listen to me either. What did Fleetwood Mac say? Go your own way.

-JW

[Adam76]

Thanks, when you say a REAL port job did more than anything else, what exactly do you mean? What did it really do above what was already achieved?
And what do you consider a "real" port job?
Cheers

He means somebody with flow bench, knows what he's doing, and maybe 700 to 1500 bucks later, has heads that flow gobs of air north of 6000 rpm.

Mr. Tractor Motor, is that what you are after? Or just a nice running Softail that is fun to ride on a daily basis? Your money. Don't listen to these guys. Don't listen to me either. What did Fleetwood Mac say? Go your own way.

-JW

What's with the attitude?

I know absolutely  nothing about head work and I'm just trying to learn.......
I have some people telling me that head work is essential and others a waste of money. Again,  I'm just trying to be really well informed.

Your input is respected,

Thanks

[ecir50]

get a 3 angle valve job and be done with it for your combo, the heads already flow good enough.

[Ohio HD]

If it were mine, I would while the heads are off install AV&V tulip shaped valves, Stock size exhaust, 1.900" intake. Have a known to understand Harley motor head flow and velocity needed for your application. Clean and match the seat to casting connections, smooth the intake walls and leave a light sanded finish in the intake side. The exhaust just cleaned up and matched, the polish the exhaust ports. Three angle valve job.

As long as the velocity is as good or better than OEM, you'll see a little more flow that will also improve mid-range and low end  little. Keeping the velocity as high as possible keeps the low end strong. 

[Adam76]

If it were mine, I would while the heads are off install AV&V tulip shaped valves, Stock size exhaust, 1.900" intake. Have a known to understand Harley motor head flow and velocity needed for your application. Clean and match the seat to casting connections, smooth the intake walls and leave a light sanded finish in the intake side. The exhaust just cleaned up and matched, the polish the exhaust ports. Three angle valve job.

As long as the velocity is as good or better than OEM, you'll see a little more flow that will also improve mid-range and low end  little. Keeping the velocity as high as possible keeps the low end strong.

Thanks Ohio, is great to know what can be done and what to do IF l choose to do it.
Especially if I think that down the track l might decide to put a slightly bigger cam in or up the compression...
Cheers

[thumper 823]

There are a lot of little things that would help.
Look at previously sent links.
The devil is in the details and a shop will charge you for these little things. 
Like Porsche, Chevy, they,  and Harley heads have been around for so long -there are some "knowns"  that will work.
No exotic flow bench needed.
No secrets required.
Virgin head needs to be shaved to raise CR  using stock pistons
Unshroud the exhaust valves is a  known.
Back cut valves is another and works on most engines.
On and on we can go.
But it becomes nickel dime stuff and adds up to bigger end bill. If you have no access to a face and hard seat grinder it will cost.
For instance, you can go larger valves using the same seats.
The port work- a novice can knock off ruff edges and feel good about it - Real port work requires welding, moving and reshaping.
That is what Basily does.
Scott at HillSide Harley does very impressive stuff too!
I have been in his shop and looked at dyno reports. I am not knowing at all what tricks he has up his sleeve.
I am impressed. He will share what he knows -but like most that actually know he is doing, is Not going to argue and waste time with the zillions of armchair fools on the net.
Do you want to read a fool's fool?  Go read the BS over where  Thermodyne hangs out. -
Endless BS from him and his little tribe of the cadre . An Arm chair chorus repeating what they have picked up through the years.
I will tell you this-those that shuffle words and make veiled secrets have every few to hide. (if any)
They can be read on most any forum every day and talk like they have the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
Most that leave open-end comments don't know shet and want to pretend.
Period.
I have earned every one of mine, trial, and error . More than willing to share.
Scott  from Hill Side is on here a Lot.
He is a SMART man. You can ask him what he does, he is more than happy to point out the armchair BS people from the real.
Baisley does not play on any of the forums and is     -S L O W-  and did I say expensive? Yes, he is.
B4 I met Scott I had him do a set, porting my heads------over 6 months to get them back. I lost a year there.
But I do know what his secrets are LOL!  (not that they are secrets ..)

So a LOT of people can talk about stuff, some of the track stars (1/4 milers) can add input-- But when they play cloak and dagger,- they can go to hell. Why should they ever bother here? 
What's the point?
To get all puffy chest and say I know and will not say??    LOL
There are a couple on here........Have not seen them on this thread.
You and those reading this have got a very good education this round. This time.
Glean all you can.
Read joe Mondello
and other great references.
http://johnmaherracing.com/tech-talk/3-angle-valve-job/
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/89678-valve-angles

https://www.tabperformance.com/How-to-Choose-Motorcycle-Cams-s/215.htm

[Adam76]

You and those reading this have got a very good education this round. This time.
Glean all you can.
Read joe Mondello
and other great references.
http://johnmaherracing.com/tech-talk/3-angle-valve-job/
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/89678-valve-angles

https://www.tabperformance.com/How-to-Choose-Motorcycle-Cams-s/215.htm

No doubt about that, this has been an incredibly informative thread for me, and I am appreciative to all the knowledgeable people who have generously shared good information.

Thanks guys, l have learned a lot.
Cheers

[Hossamania]

Adam, I missed or have forgotten which model bike you have, and what exhaust you are using.

[Adam76]

Adam, I missed or have forgotten which model bike you have, and what exhaust you are using.

'96 Heritage softail nostalgia. Currently has the stock header with the high crossover and SE slash cut mufflers. But I'm planning on probably going with a thunder header / pro pipe / road rage long megaphone....
Already has a Mikuni carb and S&S teardrop air cleaner.
I've had so much good info from this thread, very helpful and very appreciated.   

[jsachs1]

Adam, I missed or have forgotten which model bike you have, and what exhaust you are using.

'96 Heritage softail nostalgia. Currently has the stock header with the high crossover and SE slash cut mufflers. But I'm planning on probably going with a thunder header / pro pipe / road rage long megaphone....
Already has a Mikuni carb and S&S teardrop air cleaner.
I've had so much good info from this thread, very helpful and very appreciated.   

I had to stop work on the springer, to knock out a couple sets of heads, so no I don't have cranking compression numbers. Maybe end of next week. IMO, I would use a Thunder Header, my favorite EVO 2 into 1.
John

[thumper 823]

Adam, I missed or have forgotten which model bike you have, and what exhaust you are using.

'96 Heritage softail nostalgia. Currently has the stock header with the high crossover and SE slash cut mufflers. But I'm planning on probably going with a thunder header / pro pipe / road rage long megaphone....
Already has a Mikuni carb and S&S teardrop air cleaner.
I've had so much good info from this thread, very helpful and very appreciated.   

I had to stop work on the springer, to knock out a couple sets of heads, so no I don't have cranking compression numbers. Maybe end of next week. IMO, I would use a Thunder Header, my favorite EVO 2 into 1.
John

99 out of a 100 dyno shops say the Thunder header is best ... actually I don't know the percentage but most would agree to that statement.

[JW113]

What's with the attitude?

It's call GIN. Bombay Sapphire to be specific.


And with that, I think it's time for me to stop doling out the opinions and just step back.

-JW

[thumper 823]

All we have to offer here is opinions from our own experience.

I will offer mine cause I am RIGHT !   LOL
Seriously none of us has steered him wrong,  I just want to spend more of his money!

Adam -being you are replacing stem seals ..OS valves are not that much more money.....hahah
It is such a slippery slope but the fall is usually gentle ..unless you get tied up with a guy called a mechanic in  Sedro-Woolley...

[Don D]

I do the same build here, 9.5 kb pistons. It could go 10 with compression releases added and an aftermarket  ignition

Thanks HD, I thought everyone steered clear of KB pistons, but there are obviously differed types?
Which ones did you use?  Do you have a part number? Thanks Adam

I was refering to KB forged 4032 allow pistons with coated skirts. They are a high quality and affordable alternative.

[Deye76]

Adam, I think you set a record, 7 pages, and 16 days, for a top end overhaul with a bolt in cam. Winter time (long time members know what I'm talking about)  never elicited this much enthusiasm, my hat is off to you for keeping people engaged in tough times.

[Adam76]

Adam, I think you set a record, 7 pages, and 16 days, for a top end overhaul with a bolt in cam. Winter time (long time members know what I'm talking about)  never elicited this much enthusiasm, my hat is off to you for keeping people engaged in tough times.

Yes Deye, l was just thinking that exact thought yesterday!!  Suprised myself, hope I didn't piss too many people off.

I think the  problem is - a complete top end build with a "bolt in Cam".... oxymoron right there. A bolt in Cam is a bolt in Cam... maybe with a few tweaks.  Not all that complicated really.

The trouble and expense of a complete  top end engine build should probably include a cam which is a little bigger than a bolt in seeing as though there are high comp pistons, zero decking, engine blue printing, head milling/ head work involved etc.. ?     I think this is where things got a little complicated (me confused).

but on a serious note l did really appreciate everybody's input, and learned a helluva lot even if it dragged out way too long for most people.  😂

[thumper 823]

R U kidding?
There is another top end rebuild on here somewhere that has been going on for months!
Truly it was great to see you get all the real comments.

[Adam76]

R U kidding?
There is another top end rebuild on here somewhere that has been going on for months!
Truly it was great to see you get all the real comments.

[thumper 823]

Perhaps the subject TBO should be addressed here one more time . (time b4 overhaul)
Lots here talk about performance mods.
What is not mentioned is the shortened graph of components.
  I usually mentioned this somewhere (most the time all the time.)
Milage is linear to the mods.
We can not expect narrow seats at the top of the margin to go the same distance as 0.050 seats centered.
Simple.
  The old tried and true 8.5 CR stock everything will go easily twice as far as any moded bike with real performance  additions ( not counting flapper valve air cleaners)
(I love picking on that POS)

[thumper 823]

If it was me I would replace the plastic breather gear whilst there.
They warp, gather crap as it gets embedded in the plastic, and ruins the bore it spins in.

[hbkeith]

of all the EVO,s ive had , a REAL ( not a $350 one )port job did more than anything

Not without the Cam and Intake and even Pipe that compliment it... BTDT

Yes , and of coarse that LOL

[Adam76]

If it was me I would replace the plastic breather gear whilst there.
They warp, gather crap as it gets embedded in the plastic, and ruins the bore it spins in.

Yep, thanks.
Already have the S&S kit on the way 👍

[thumper 823]

Your stuff is on the way.

[Adam76]

Your stuff is on the way.

Thanks man, appreciated  👌

[thumper 823]

Now you are a victim of pay it forward.

[Adam76]

Now you are a victim of pay it forward.

LOVE paying it forward!  😉

[jsachs1]

Finally got around to starting the springer up. 3 heat cycles, lifters quiet during the 2nd heat cycle. Compression test this am cold cranking 180 PSI both cylinders. May ride it Saturday so customer can have it early next week.
John

[98fxstc]

Finally got around to starting the springer up. 3 heat cycles, lifters quiet during the 2nd heat cycle. Compression test this am cold cranking 180 PSI both cylinders. May ride it Saturday so customer can have it early next week.
John

[nmainehunter]

Got to this way late, good stuff. I think all the good work depends on the way it's going to be run. I put a 46 in my FX Springer with Wiseco 10-1 and springs and Cometec .030 gaskets. It doesn't suit my riding style, I'm putting the 27 back in. It's not that the 46 didn't run, just the opposite, I just spent a lot of time outside of it's sweet spot as in it and I feel the 27 is better suited. They both run great at 85 , it's just how they get there.

[jsachs1]

Console and seat it's ready for the road test. [attach=0] 

[Adam76]

Got to this way late, good stuff. I think all the good work depends on the way it's going to be run. I put a 46 in my FX Springer with Wiseco 10-1 and springs and Cometec .030 gaskets. It doesn't suit my riding style, I'm putting the 27 back in. It's not that the 46 didn't run, just the opposite, I just spent a lot of time outside of it's sweet spot as in it and I feel the 27 is better suited. They both run great at 85 , it's just how they get there.

Are you keeping the 10.1 pistons on there when you go back to the 27?  Do you know what your corrected compression and ccp will be?

[Adam76]

Console and seat it's ready for the road test. [attach=0,msg1346007]

👌 looking forward to your feedback John.

[nmainehunter]

Adam I'm keeping the pistons. Honestly I don't try to wring it out. I checked my squish and it was under .030 which is OK and for how I ride it performs well. I tweek my carb and run a quality clutch. I love to go and be happy with 80 on the highway and it does it easily. I did do something different with my exhaust that I have never seen done. I like 2-1 pipes, I think they run better but the set that I bought had me fighting a decell pop that drove me crazy. I ended up modifying the muffler by putting a fixture so I could run Supertrapp discs. It works great. I think the pipes that I bought were better suited to fuel injected engines and dyno tuned machines.