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EV27 ok at 9.9 static compression?

Started by Adam76, April 09, 2020, 05:52:52 AM

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Adam76

 :doh:
Quote from: thumper 823 on April 09, 2020, 07:12:04 PM
Also about cams -
depending on the internal mods -
Porting, chamber design, etc, a cam in one engine will behave differently in another.
Ask a man that runs a dyno!
He will know!
Scott has a dyno and prolly set up hundreds of engines with all different scenarios.
From what I've read from Scotts previous posts, he has said that the W6, ev27 and ev46 all respond well to 10.1 comp. But I don't think the 27 would be his first choice at that comp. He says the w6 at 10.1 is by far the best choice. I don't have a w6 unfortunately and can't afford another can.

turboprop

Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:14:12 PM
Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on April 09, 2020, 07:08:46 AM
IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.
Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.
Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Define 'Good'. A cam with a later intake closing will never be as 'good' at a lower rpm as a cam with an earlier closing point. It is what it is, but I dont think it is as bad as the key board commandos will make it out to be.
Thanks turboprop, what first got me interested in the ev46 was the amazing dyno chart with a almost flay toque curve that night rider. Com posted AND that was just with 9.5 comp.... I reckon with 10.1 maybe the 46 would be an all-around better choice? 
Man this is hard when you only have the $$ to do it once and the pressure to get it right the first time 😂

To make it even more fun, not all 10:1 pistons are equal. Big differences in performance between a set of 10:1 pistons with a D-shaped bump vs a set of Axtell angle top pistons with the heads machined to match. The later setup is more efficient and less prone to detonation.

https://www.axtellsales.com/Evo-Big-Twin-Pro-Street-Series-pistons/
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

Adam76

Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 07:23:03 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:14:12 PM
Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on April 09, 2020, 07:08:46 AM
IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.
Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.
Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Define 'Good'. A cam with a later intake closing will never be as 'good' at a lower rpm as a cam with an earlier closing point. It is what it is, but I dont think it is as bad as the key board commandos will make it out to be.
Thanks turboprop, what first got me interested in the ev46 was the amazing dyno chart with a almost flay toque curve that night rider. Com posted AND that was just with 9.5 comp.... I reckon with 10.1 maybe the 46 would be an all-around better choice? 
Man this is hard when you only have the $$ to do it once and the pressure to get it right the first time 😂

To make it even more fun, not all 10:1 pistons are equal. Big differences in performance between a set of 10:1 pistons with a D-shaped bump vs a set of Axtell angle top pistons with the heads machined to match. The later setup is more efficient and less prone to detonation.

https://www.axtellsales.com/Evo-Big-Twin-Pro-Street-Series-pistons/
Thanks for adding to the confusion hahaha.... those pistons may be better but I don't have a machinist here that is capable of matching heads to piston dome shapes 😣

turboprop

Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:36:22 PM
Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 07:23:03 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:14:12 PM
Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 05:33:14 PM
Quote from: turboprop on April 09, 2020, 09:24:30 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 09, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on April 09, 2020, 07:08:46 AM
IIRC Andrews suggests 9.5:1. Maybe contact them.
Hi Deye, yes they do recommend 9.5 but that doesn't mean that it can take a little more with it any detriment?? They may be saying 9.5 to be on the safe conservative side of things?
I have read Scott from hillside say from what l can remember that he has done many W6  ev46 and ev27 builds at 10.1 with great results.... hence my confusion.
Thanks

I used to have an 80" Evo with the EV46, 10:1 compression and about $400 worth of head work (Mid 1990s dollars). It ran very well and was very friendly on the street.  Cant speak to the little EV27 cam, but would not hesitate to build another 80" with the EV46 and 10:1. I should mention this was in a light bike with 32/70 gearing.
Hey thanks turboprop. In your experience what compression wold the ev46 need so that the bottom end is still good and it starts pulling strong down low say by 2300/2500 ?  Instead of the 3000rpm it usually starts at.
Thank you

Define 'Good'. A cam with a later intake closing will never be as 'good' at a lower rpm as a cam with an earlier closing point. It is what it is, but I dont think it is as bad as the key board commandos will make it out to be.
Thanks turboprop, what first got me interested in the ev46 was the amazing dyno chart with a almost flay toque curve that night rider. Com posted AND that was just with 9.5 comp.... I reckon with 10.1 maybe the 46 would be an all-around better choice? 
Man this is hard when you only have the $$ to do it once and the pressure to get it right the first time 😂

To make it even more fun, not all 10:1 pistons are equal. Big differences in performance between a set of 10:1 pistons with a D-shaped bump vs a set of Axtell angle top pistons with the heads machined to match. The later setup is more efficient and less prone to detonation.

https://www.axtellsales.com/Evo-Big-Twin-Pro-Street-Series-pistons/
Thanks for adding to the confusion hahaha.... those pistons may be better but I don't have a machinist here that is capable of matching heads to piston dome shapes 😣

Yea you do. This is not a complex operation and Axtell provides good instructions that just about any machinist can follow.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

thumper 823

Send them straight to axtell.
Ron is a great guy!
I do suppose from dwn under the freight will add up to be something.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Hossamania

You have the 27 now, but you talk about the 46. Is the 46 an option, or are you sticking with the 27? I only ask because I had a 46 on a stock motor, a little sluggish down low, but an absolute blast up top. I had no problem downshifting to keep it in the sweet spot (still do that with my Twin Cam). It walked away from all comers, 27s included. But I tend to enjoy motors that work higher in the rpms, drag track style. It will be even better with some compression dialed in, I'm sure it will cure the bottom end softness.
Having said that, the 27 works well in a stock motor, it will do very well with compression.
All things being equal, the 46 wins in the 1/4 mile, but will require a downshift running uphill. It all depends on what your end goal is.
I'm sorry, I really wish I could answer your question about your intended compression working with the 27. It will with the 46. I hope someone here can give you a straight answer.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Adam76

Quote from: Hossamania on April 09, 2020, 07:40:42 PM
You have the 27 now, but you talk about the 46. Is the 46 an option, or are you sticking with the 27? I only ask because I had a 46 on a stock motor, a little sluggish down low, but an absolute blast up top. I had no problem downshifting to keep it in the sweet spot (still do that with my Twin Cam). It walked away from all comers, 27s included. But I tend to enjoy motors that work higher in the rpms, drag track style. It will be even better with some compression dialed in, I'm sure it will cure the bottom end softness.
Having said that, the 27 works well in a stock motor, it will do very well with compression.
All things being equal, the 46 wins in the 1/4 mile, but will require a downshift running uphill. It all depends on what your end goal is.
I'm sorry, I really wish I could answer your question about your intended compression working with the 27. It will with the 46. I hope someone here can give you a straight answer.
Thanks Hossamania it's not too late to swap my 27 to a 46 and go with my intended high comp pistons.... Is actually starting to look like a better option that pushing the compression on a ev27.... I'm no expert so I'm relying on the amazing knowledge and experience shared on this great site.  👍

Don D

An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.

Hossamania

April 10, 2020, 07:27:29 AM #33 Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 07:33:08 AM by Hossamania
Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 10, 2020, 07:25:41 AM
An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression.

I agree 100%
The 27 is just a better choice in general for most riders. The 46 works better in light bikes with light riders better than it does in heavy bikes, but even then, it is a much narrower, or rather, much higher, power band. But damn, that 46 is a ball when it hits!
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Adam76

Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 10, 2020, 07:25:41 AM
An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.
Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Arseclown

Hi Adam Im also in Australia and there's a few of us on this board among others.  I've observed a few things different between here and the USA in relation to modifying harleys. They seem to get away with running higher compression than we can.  Maybe it's because we have pretty extreme temperatures pretty much everywhere in summer or maybe our fuel is worse. Maybe both. I know they've got a lot more expert tuners than we do too. In any event me and other Harley folk I know including respected builders and tuners generally play it safer than Americans with compression. Just my two cents. Hope it all works out no matter what you do.

Adam76

Quote from: Arseclown on April 10, 2020, 07:51:50 AM
Hi Adam Im also in Australia and there's a few of us on this board among others.  I've observed a few things different between here and the USA in relation to modifying harleys. They seem to get away with running higher compression than we can.  Maybe it's because we have pretty extreme temperatures pretty much everywhere in summer or maybe our fuel is worse. Maybe both. I know they've got a lot more expert tuners than we do too. In any event me and other Harley folk I know including respected builders and tuners generally play it safer than Americans with compression. Just my two cents. Hope it all works out no matter what you do.
Hey thanks mate, that's something I always had in the back of my mind and appreciate you bringing it up. Cheers. 👍

Don D

Quote from: Adam76 on April 10, 2020, 07:47:14 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 10, 2020, 07:25:41 AM
An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.
Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

Hossamania

What are your end goals? What is "the next mod" that you want to do?
How many miles on the motor?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hossamania

April 10, 2020, 08:12:32 AM #39 Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 08:20:03 AM by Hossamania
Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 10, 2020, 08:03:52 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 10, 2020, 07:47:14 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 10, 2020, 07:25:41 AM
An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.
Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

Too late, he already has the Wisecos.
I forgot, it was mentioned earlier that compression releases probably needed with 10:1 pistons. Just one more piece of the puzzle.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Adam76

Quote from: Hossamania on April 10, 2020, 08:12:32 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 10, 2020, 08:03:52 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 10, 2020, 07:47:14 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 10, 2020, 07:25:41 AM
An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.
Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

Too late, he already has the Wisecos.
I forgot, it was mentioned earlier that compression releases probably needed with 10:1 pistons. Just one more piece of the puzzle.
No, just had the pistons in my shipping cart , not paid for yet.... so the options are still open.  Going with a little less comp does make sense. Cheers

Hossamania

Quote from: Hossamania on April 10, 2020, 08:11:23 AM
What are your end goals? What is "the next mod" that you want to do?
How many miles on the motor?

Answering these will help with decisions.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Adam76

Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 10, 2020, 08:03:52 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on April 10, 2020, 07:47:14 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on April 10, 2020, 07:25:41 AM
An EV27 with the proper compression is a better choice than a 46 without added compression. I have done a bunch of EV27 build heads by just milling .060 and they use a cometiic .030 or the blue james gaskets.
Thanks HD, I agree the 27 is tree better choice set up correctly.
I'd rather not take .060 of the heads because then I'm stock with small combustion chambered heads ruling out possible future builds?

I'm thinking that I could possibly get away with just the 27 cam, dropping in a 10.1 Wiseco piston and leaving everything else virtually stock except for the. 030 HG and new base gaskets..... NO head work, NO cc'ing heads, No zero decking jugs...

Is this a risky option?  Or something that it or has been done hundreds of times?

Thank you

Yes by all means but use the KB920C piston

👍 thanks

thumper 823

As I stated in the beginning -
State the goals.
I always tell people to take a sheet of paper and write the end goal at the bottom of the page.
This eliminates throwing a bunch of unnecessary parts at a bike hoping for a better results.
Cams- are not an exact science as to what they will do on each bike.
Trying a slightly different one is a good idea if we are
searching for the best results.
Most are about 250.00 bucks a whack, pretty cheap in a performance add ons esp when I see people
buying the doofus crap like trap door air filters for 400 bucks!
Every time I see one of those I know I am looking at an wax and wash rider.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Adam76

Quote from: Hossamania on April 10, 2020, 08:30:40 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on April 10, 2020, 08:11:23 AM
What are your end goals? What is "the next mod" that you want to do?
How many miles on the motor?

Answering these will help with decisions.
Thanks,  only 20K miles on the bike, and to be honest I don't have any planes for future upgrades, but you just can't say never can you?  😊

Adam76

Quote from: thumper 823 on April 10, 2020, 08:33:30 AM
As I stated in the beginning -
State the goals.
I always tell people to take a sheet of paper and write the end goal at the bottom of the page.
This eliminates throwing a bunch of unnecessary parts at a bike hoping for a better results.
Cams- are not an exact science as to what they will do on each bike.
Trying a slightly different one is a good idea if we are
searching for the best results.
Most are about 250.00 bucks a whack, pretty cheap in a performance add ons esp when I see people
buying the doofus crap like trap door air filters for 400 bucks!
Every time I see one of those I know I am looking at an wax and wash rider.
Thanks thumper, very good point. I have through the various posts pretty much stated what I intend to use the bike for and how it aul be ridden.... I'm a middle of the ris's type of rider, not extreme and not sedentary. 

Hossamania

If you do not have concrete plans for the future, then build it properly now.
Horsepower is in the heads. Pick your cam, set the heads for it. Again, just my opinion.
Even if you are just going for pistons, the cylinders need to be checked and matched to them, some machining likely necessary. Are you measuring the cylinders before ordering? Measuring for out of round? Are you getting .010 over and machining to fit?
Your riding style has me recommending the 27, heads to match. Do the pistons later, they can be set up to work with your heads.
We didn't even talk about exhaust. What are you using?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

thumper 823

My bike is 10.5 to 1 , with no CR release buttons, no start problems, with three lbs lithium 3 lb battery.
We ride all the way to Sturgis two up and heavy.
The weather is usually HOT.
Doing 90 MPH most the day through Nebraska and a couple of other states is quite the norm.
As I said -the devil is in the details  [attach=0,msg1341737] 
CHOOSE the right piston rings!  Not the 30 lb variety from brand X 
I am running 10 lbs of pull or push and that was B4 break-in!
No problems.
The last set I ran was  set @  15 lbs
Why people continue to use crap is more then I will understand.
D Troop 3/5, - C/16 ,162AHC, Mekong delta.
Rising from the Ashes  UHIH

Hossamania

And as I think about this, if it is all budget driven, leave it as is, save up, and do it as a whole package, pistons, heads, cam when you can.
You could just put a 27 in it now and ride, you would be happy with that simple and affordable upgrade. Then build around that cam, or go a different cam and build. You wouldn't be the first to have an extra cam on the shelf, or sell it for a couple bucks later.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

JW113

 :agree:

Adam I looked through your prior posts and maybe I missed it, but I did not see that you stated what model bike this is. If it is rubber mount (FL, FXR, Dyna), then no worries about high rpm cams. If you are working on a rigid mount softail, my advice would be to stick to the low/mid rpm torque cams. That is, unless you like breaking chassis bolts and parts falling off...

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber