Millennium cylinders?

[BigT]

I am helping a friend with a new to him 2008 TwinCam with 35,000 miles that has a few issues. He doesn't know the history of the prior motor work. The bike is burning oil and has a 25% leak down on the rear and 10% on the front. Pulled the rear cylinder and it has "Millennium" cast on the outside of the cylinder but nothing on the front cylinder.  The bore looks to be 3.935. Any idea if these might be plated cylinders? What cu. in would that make it with the stock crank?
The engine also has a pretty bad shake at idle. The crankshaft runout was .0035. The motor mounts are tight. What would cause excessive shake other than a poorly balanced crank?

[calif phil]

 

[thirdjld]

By googling it sounds like this might be what you have. https://www.revolution-performance.com/107bigbore.php

[Don D]

You picked the worse of the two, so what was leaking?

[Coyote]

[Ohio HD]

Do they look like these jewels?     


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[kd]

How about compression balance. 

[BigT]

You picked the worse of the two, so what was leaking?

We could hear the air coming through the open cam chest so it looks to be an issue with ring seal. I had to leave after the we did the leak down test and my friend started to tear it apart and measured the cylinder diameter. I am heading back over there today to check it out.

[prodrag1320]

nikasil cylinders,we wont use them here.never have ,never will

[Buglet]

  Not to get of the subject but I just seen a new M 8 40% leak down. I know that not right but what going on when you buy a new bike. Is this what Harley allowing now. 

[Don D]

My opinion of air cooled nikasil coated aluminum cylinders, not relevant. Broken is broken.
Uneven compression is the shake.
Now the fix, use OEM cylinders bored and honed properly and a 107" KB line2line coated pistons, fixed.
I have cylinders and the pistons in stock.

[PoorUB]

It would be interesting to know if the one cylinder is standard cast iron bore and the other appears to be nikasil. Perhaps the front cylinder took a dump, someone swapped it out, leaving he rear alone and sold the bike.

BigT, have you tore down the front cylinder ?

[aswracing]

nikasil cylinders,we wont use them here.never have ,never will

Smart man.

I wish I had been so smart. I had to learn the lesson the hard way.

[Raleigh111]

Nickel Silicon Carbide Plating on aluminum cylinders has a great place to live in the  liquid cooled world. Not so great of a reputation in big twin air cooled. They dont seem to like to stay O .. Keep us posted on the other cylinder.

[Eglider05]

Just throw them in the trash and don't look back.

Rick

[JW113]

Not an advocate of Nikasil either, but... BMW used it on their '81 and later airheads, with great success. Why you suppose that is? 250,000 miles on a top end is not uncommon. Much less stroke, piston velocity, and rod angle? Just trying to understand why it does not work in the Harley world when it has a proven record in the beemer-verse. Or is it maybe not Nikasil per say, but related to the supplier and how they make them?

-JW

[Hossamania]

Could it be the angle of thrust difference between a V twin and an opposed cylinder layout?

[TorQuePimp]

Not an advocate of Nikasil either, but... BMW used it on their '81 and later airheads, with great success. Why you suppose that is? 250,000 miles on a top end is not uncommon. Much less stroke, piston velocity, and rod angle? Just trying to understand why it does not work in the Harley world when it has a proven record in the beemer-verse. Or is it maybe not Nikasil per say, but related to the supplier and how they make them?

-JW

Short answer.....BMW isn't using wiseco pistons

[JW113]

That is certainly true! So what is Wiseco bringing that spoils the party? Too much piston/cyl clearance?

-JW

[BigT]

The front cylinder looked good. The rear cylinder was pretty scored up. Decided to use a set of seasoned 96" cylinders bored out to 103" with 10:1 CP-Carrillo pistons. I have no idea what make the old pistons were but the oil ring on the Carrillo pistons looks to be twice as wide.

[Buglet]

   Moto Guzzi use Nikasil cylinders and they are a V twin air cooled.

[PoorUB]

I am guessing that anyone that uses Nikasil successfully has one hell of a lot more engineering into them than anyone that builds them for Harleys.

After all the negative talk I have seen about Nikasil cylinders for Harley I wouldn't touch 'em if they were free.

[Deye76]

Or maybe the producers of Nikasil v-twin cylinders already know Harley riders will put up with a lot more mediocrity than most.

[TorQuePimp]

That is certainly true! So what is Wiseco bringing that spoils the party? Too much piston/cyl clearance?

-JW

Ok.....they had a "Potty mouth" ton of failures

From what I gather.....they blamed the rings

Seems they don't quite have the issues fixed

Was a guy in Tennessee that was selling 113" kits with mahle pistons

From what I know they held up fine

[JW113]

I am guessing that anyone that uses Nikasil successfully has one hell of a lot more engineering into them than anyone that builds them for Harleys.

Are you saying that BMW had done more and better engineering than some small USA aftermarket outfit? Say it ain't so!


As I suggested earlier, the technology is tried and true. That does not mean that it's easy or cheap to make it work. And I agree, have not/would not touch them either from any company currently supplying them for Harley-Davidson motorcycles. Wonder if BMW could be talked into making them?


-JW

[Hossamania]

The front cylinder looked good. The rear cylinder was pretty scored up. Decided to use a set of seasoned 96" cylinders bored out to 103" with 10:1 CP-Carrillo pistons. I have no idea what make the old pistons were but the oil ring on the Carrillo pistons looks to be twice as wide.

Using those cylinders is the right thing to do, your friend will be very happy.

[aswracing]

What we'd see is good ones for awhile, then bad ones for awhile, etc.

Plating processes are not as easy to control as you might think. A lot of things affect it.

In the end, I figure somewhere between 5-10% of them came back. Every one of those that came back, we ended up losing money on that project. No shop can survive with that kind of a come-back rate. I finally threw in the towel. I couldn't make it work. It wasn't the rings, it wasn't the clearances, it wasn't the assembly procedures or the tuning or anything else I had any control of. I became convinced it was something upstream from me. The issues came and went in waves.



I worked with a foundry, developed our own cylinder with an actual ferrous liner, and never looked back. Works great.

[prodrag1320]

Not an advocate of Nikasil either, but... BMW used it on their '81 and later airheads, with great success. Why you suppose that is? 250,000 miles on a top end is not uncommon. Much less stroke, piston velocity, and rod angle? Just trying to understand why it does not work in the Harley world when it has a proven record in the beemer-verse. Or is it maybe not Nikasil per say, but related to the supplier and how they make them?

-JW

ive seen this argument before,im sure the plating process,equipment is ALOT different between BMW,HONDA,ect and the process/equipment rev perf uses

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Solenberg Performance, Shelbyville, Ind.
Cast-iron lined 4.250" cylinder/piston kits, formerly Delkron.
Ready, set, fight......

[Buglet]

  There is a couple of Guzzi and BMW's shops that use Rev Pro to restore there old cylinders with good success. Maybe it has some thing install process or piston and ring package. I know on some kits they use CP and Wiseco piston kits. I know a couple of Harley shops stop using Wiseco pistons. I had my issues with there pistons as well as S&S had with there pistons years back.           

[Appowner]

Porsche used Nikasil for a number of years in their 911 series.  No idea if they still do or not but they ran great in my 911.

[Hossamania]

This has been discussed here many times. It seems Porsche, yes, BMW, yes, Harley, no.
Why?
It doesn't matter. There are too many known good options to mess with it.

[Buglet]

  It would be nice to fine out the real reason why they don't work instead of speculating. The other thing how are they able to keep selling them if they are that bad. They must have some good sales people. How long does it take for people to stop buying there stuff.

[FLDavetrain]

It doesn't matter. There are too many known good options to mess with it.

Ok, so tell me who else sells 4.250 cylinders for 131ci. Help me be aware of all the good options.

[Hossamania]

It doesn't matter. There are too many known good options to mess with it.

Ok, so tell me who else sells 4.250 cylinders for 131ci. Help me be aware of all the good options.

Sorry,.can't help you there. I was thinking more along the line of conventional builds. It seems these have been a problem for years, and no answer found yet. Many theories, many attempts at making them work by very smart people, and still no concrete answers or solutions. I guess you just take your chances, or build a good 124", or go 143".

[dirty jim]

Only difference I see is that Harley-Davidson is a 45 degree twin not a "Boxer".

[IronButt70]

Only difference I see is that Harley-Davidson is a 45 degree twin not a "Boxer".

And not a design where both cylinders are getting and equal amount of cooling air directly on the exhaust side like a Guzzi.

[aswracing]

Ok, so tell me who else sells 4.250 cylinders for 131ci. Help me be aware of all the good options.

A 131 done at a height that will fit in the stock chassis is about the worst motor you can ever imagine. There is no skirt left. The piston looks like a disc with rings on it. Do yourself a giant favor and build a 124.

[aswracing]

ive seen this argument before,im sure the plating process,equipment is ALOT different between BMW,HONDA,ect and the process/equipment rev perf uses

I hate to agree with Kirby all the time ... but he's hitting the nail on the head with this comment.

[Don D]

Just getting cylinders is fine and good, now wow about the almost non-existent real estate between the head bolt and cylinder bore. So you have a time bomb with a few avenues to blow. Years ago guys built all bore 114" with similar issues but at least those had piston skirts

[FLDavetrain]

Ok, so tell me who else sells 4.250 cylinders for 131ci. Help me be aware of all the good options.

A 131 done at a height that will fit in the stock chassis is about the worst motor you can ever imagine. There is no skirt left. The piston looks like a disc with rings on it. Do yourself a giant favor and build a 124.

Have all the above already. Sky not falling yet but thanks for the comment

[prodrag1320]

Solenberg Performance, Shelbyville, Ind.
Cast-iron lined 4.250" cylinder/piston kits, formerly Delkron.
Ready, set, fight......

franks a good friend,know him for years

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Solenberg Performance, Shelbyville, Ind.
Cast-iron lined 4.250" cylinder/piston kits, formerly Delkron.
Ready, set, fight......

franks a good friend,know him for years

Good guys over there.

[vafatboy1]

I'm way out of my league here....but.....when I had several friends that had failures on Rev cylinders. I did some digging around the net specifically on Porsche use of this tech.  One of the high performance shops offering more cubes claimed success needed thermally stable material.  This shop used billet for their base instead of cast in high performance (more heat) applications. 

[Nastytls]

Searched based on what Kirby stated above.

https://www.solenbergperf.com/delkron

Would an all bore 124" using these 4.250 be more stable than the 131" with it's longer stroke?

[jmorton10]

I have never used Delkron barrels, but I used Delkron cases on my old Shovel street/race bike.  I had tig welded cracks in the stock cases so many times it was getting ridiculous.

The Delkron cases where totally bullet proof.

~John

[TorQuePimp]

Searched based on what Kirby stated above.

https://www.solenbergperf.com/delkron

Would an all bore 124" using these 4.250 be more stable than the 131" with it's longer stroke?

If you can keep it sealed up

Check with them last I knew they had not produced anything new

Some 117 kits in stock

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Searched based on what Kirby stated above.

https://www.solenbergperf.com/delkron

Would an all bore 124" using these 4.250 be more stable than the 131" with it's longer stroke?

Built 5, 131"s in the last year....plus one for my personal use.
All good.
T-Man 662-2's are the ticket in a Sport-Touring application.
Torque band is such, that Ronnie Milsap could drag race it.......

[Buglet]

   Now all you need is to have the bike handle like a Sport-Tourer and you be set.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

So .125" bore increase (.062" on a side) over an S&S cylinder creates an apocolapse?
Answer..........It doesn't.

[Nastytls]

Seems like when you search around 50% say 4.250 is completely fine and 50% that it's a recipe for disaster, with no in between.  I'd love to try a 4.250 124" w/ worked B2 heads. Should make for a screamer in a Dyna.

[turboprop]

Seems like when you search around 50% say 4.250 is completely fine and 50% that it's a recipe for disaster, with no in between.  I'd love to try a 4.250 124" w/ worked B2 heads. Should make for a screamer in a Dyna.

Ron Dickey and Dan Baisley set a land speed record at Bonneville using a 4.250" bore x 4" stroke engine with Hurricane heads modified by Baisley on a dyna platform. This engine made over 160 horsepower with a carb (was later converted to injection). Ron rides this bike on the street. I have not ridden it but it looks like a whole bunch of fun.

[aswracing]

Ron Dickey and Dan Baisley set a land speed record at Bonneville using a 4.250" bore x 4" stroke engine with Hurricane heads modified by Baisley on a dyna platform. This engine made over 160 horsepower with a carb (was later converted to injection). Ron rides this bike on the street. I have not ridden it but it looks like a whole bunch of fun.

On a 4" stroke, you still have some skirt left. It's the 4-5/8 that turns the pistons into disks. If done at a height that fits in the stock chassis anyway. You can always go taller to get some skirt back.

Ask Ron what he thinks of the 131 sometime. Hint: he'd sell you the cylinders, but they'd come with a big warning that there would be no support.

[turboprop]

Ron Dickey and Dan Baisley set a land speed record at Bonneville using a 4.250" bore x 4" stroke engine with Hurricane heads modified by Baisley on a dyna platform. This engine made over 160 horsepower with a carb (was later converted to injection). Ron rides this bike on the street. I have not ridden it but it looks like a whole bunch of fun.

On a 4" stroke, you still have some skirt left. It's the 4-5/8 that turns the pistons into disks. If done at a height that fits in the stock chassis anyway. You can always go taller to get some skirt back.

Ask Ron what he thinks of the 131 sometime. Hint: he'd sell you the cylinders, but they'd come with a big warning that there would be no support.

Ron and I have had many discussions about Millennium cylinders and Brian Nalin. You may recall a few years I was escorted out of the V-Twin Expo while wearing an Axtell badge. Apparently, it is against the show rules for someone to go into another booth, flip the table and put their hands on another vendors throat.

Ron and I have also talked at length about the performance advantages of an over square 114" to that of a typical 124". I have a couple TC124 engines in my FXRs, but have plans to build a 4.250" bore 114. Ron did it using oem harley cases to fit within the class rules, but I will probably use an S&S case with a spread cylinder stud pattern. I also plan to use a set of 8" Carrillo rods that I have laying around and most likely a set of B2s worked over by Dan. I think the longer rods and spread stud pattern will significantly improve the reliability of this engine. Luckily for me, Ron has developed a pretty good package that he is willing to leverage against this project. If I can come to terms with cutting an oem harley FXR frame, I may even go full retard with some stuff from Jessell.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Planning on a 4", X 4.250" bore, in our shop mule Dyna this coming winter.
Gonna be a fun project.

[fatbobber]

I also had a fair piece of trouble with the millenium's in my Buell S1W , i used the bike for track racing en touring trough Europe.
The first set of 1250 mil. kit failed very fast but they give a warranty set without discussion , after a while those also started to use oil and i called Ron Dickey for advice .
He sold me a set of his own Axtell 1250 nikasil cilinders/pistons for the Buell, they never failed again .
So they can be made to work ,but millenium has not found out how ;-)

[John D]

Never a dull moment in Cinci with "Ed from Axtell" there!  I'm hungry, lets go!

[turboprop]

Never a dull moment in Cinci with "Ed from Axtell" there!  I'm hungry, lets go!

I really miss the V-Twin Expo. I hope the industry picks up enough that it makes sense to have that event again.

[rredneckn2]

 

Never a dull moment in Cinci with "Ed from Axtell" there!  I'm hungry, lets go!

I really miss the V-Twin Expo. I hope the industry picks up enough that it makes sense to have that event again.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/Smileys/default/iagree.gif

[Coyote]

Never a dull moment in Cinci with "Ed from Axtell" there!  I'm hungry, lets go!

Good times.   

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[calif phil]

Man, those were some good times.  I miss Jim and all the laughs we shared.