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PCV and autotune.

Started by rbabos, April 19, 2020, 12:49:31 PM

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rbabos

Got an issue, can't figure out. Bike is a 2015 vrod with a current TTS tune. Cal is the old MT7 version.  Has been upgraded to a SC and PCV with autotune module, currently just TPS tuning it. The base cal, TTS has the 14.6 cells changed to 14.0-13.8 in those areas to prevent closed loop. O2 eliminators have been installed and a PCV cal loaded into the PCV as well as the autotune configure done. The issue is this. Bike runs fine at first but trim table in the front cyl is driving it lean after trims are sent, with -20 , -30 adjustments. Rear about is adding about +10 and showing normal afrs.  Not sure what the problem is but at rpms past 4500 the trims look ok in both cyls. Below 4500 is where the issue is, mostly the front cyl.  This is the stock exhaust system, with the only change being the WB sensors added in place of the stock NB. Need suggestions on what to check. Bike is in the USA and I'm in Ontario so can't easily check the hook ups done with the installed components.
Ron

Coyote

So did you use adapters on the O2 sensors?

rbabos

April 19, 2020, 02:28:09 PM #2 Last Edit: April 19, 2020, 02:34:47 PM by rbabos
Quote from: Coyote on April 19, 2020, 01:02:20 PM
So did you use adapters on the O2 sensors?
No reducer bushings needed.  Stock Nb sensors removed and eliminators plugged into wires plugs. I believe he welded new ports into the stock pipe for the WB sensors. He says sensor tip protrusion is well in the pipe.

Ron

Coyote

IME, they aren't accurate when located in the NB stock positions. They need to be farther from the heads.

I can't offer much else but I will say I don't understand adding the PCV on top of the TTS. Seems just messy IMO.

rbabos

Quote from: Coyote on April 19, 2020, 03:54:19 PM
IME, they aren't accurate when located in the NB stock positions. They need to be farther from the heads.

I can't offer much else but I will say I don't understand adding the PCV on top of the TTS. Seems just messy IMO.
We just tuned it with SE2 cams last year and the NB sensors with TTS. The Jones SC cams are close so we continued on with a tune that's way closer then the MTE file would be. Good or bad, don't know but it seemed the right thing to do. You saying the stock cal would be better. As the TTS cal stands the bike runs pretty good up to the  cruise range but we are using the PCV for boost so that's why it's there. First a decent TPS tune and then we will pressure tune the cal from 30-40 kpa on up to his 6 psi boost level.
Ron

Coyote

OK, didn't know about the boost. I still think your sensors are in the wrong place though based on my limited experience. Maybe one of the real tuners will chime in.

rbabos

Quote from: Coyote on April 19, 2020, 06:11:12 PM
OK, didn't know about the boost. I still think your sensors are in the wrong place though based on my limited experience. Maybe one of the real tuners will chime in.
Anything is possible, I guess. Options to where to put them very limited on the Muscle. I see HD is peddling their new WB device now and they show a drill and tap the existing sensor location for the 18mm wide bands.
Ron

Buglet

   Them why the aftermarket head pipe have the NB down stream and the 18MM bungs up stream closer to the head, and I see a lot of tuners put there will nuts toward the head side of the pipe. Is this wrong or is Vrod Different.

Coyote

Quote from: Buglet on April 20, 2020, 05:32:12 AM
   Them why the aftermarket head pipe have the NB down stream and the 18MM bungs up stream closer to the head, and I see a lot of tuners put there will nuts toward the head side of the pipe. Is this wrong or is Vrod Different.

The 18mm bungs are for the non heated narrow band sensors. None of the bungs are really for wideband sensors.

Buglet

  Were do the 18mm WB bungs belong in the pipe closer to the head or farther down seam. Harley hasn't use 18mm NB's for a while now.  Some aftermarket exhaust gives you adapters now so I guess the 12mm and 18mm would be in the same. Do you not use them bungs and install new bungs where they belong. I'am a little confused here.

Coyote

Quote from: Buglet on April 20, 2020, 07:20:21 AM
  Were do the 18mm WB bungs belong in the pipe closer to the head or farther down seam. Harley hasn't use 18mm NB's for a while now.  Some aftermarket exhaust gives you adapters now so I guess the 12mm and 18mm would be in the same. Do you not use them bungs and install new bungs where they belong. I'am a little confused here.

18mm NB sensors are unheated and need to be near the head. 12mm are heated and are put down near the cat. WB sensors are heated but I found worked better for me if they are not so close to the heads as the NB bungs usually are.

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rbabos

I'm almost suspecting 1+2 are reversed on the autotune for the v rod. Need to check that out.
Ron

rbabos

Confirmed. Damn autotune unit was in reverse for cyl 1 and 2. :banghead: Maybe now I can get somewhere with it.
Ron

Hossamania

Well that will make it tough to tune! Good catch!
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Coyote

Was the install manual not correct?

rbabos

Quote from: Coyote on April 20, 2020, 07:18:45 PM
Was the install manual not correct?
My understanding is the unit needs to be assigned the number 1 spot. in this case it would be fine for a TC ,which rear cyl is number 1. Vrod, front is number 1. Labeling and instructions were correct otherwise.
Ron

Jamie Long

With all PC-V maps and modules Front Cylinder is #1, Rear Cylinder is #2

rbabos

Quote from: Jamie Long on April 21, 2020, 07:07:41 AM
With all PC-V maps and modules Front Cylinder is #1, Rear Cylinder is #2
We pulled the rear sensor off and ran the software. Front cyl was running on WBAFR2. Sent vid to Dynojet and and Chris said it was backwards.
Ron

Jamie Long

Quote from: rbabos on April 21, 2020, 07:19:55 AM
Quote from: Jamie Long on April 21, 2020, 07:07:41 AM
With all PC-V maps and modules Front Cylinder is #1, Rear Cylinder is #2
We pulled the rear sensor off and ran the software. Front cyl was running on WBAFR2. Sent vid to Dynojet and and Chris said it was backwards.
Ron

That's the easiest way to check operation for sure, unplug one sensor and see which channel drops out of the software. You can also refer to the Install Instructions Steps 5 & 6 to establish proper sensor orientation front/rear. This can indeed be a bit confusing as H-D, the aftermarket, and even the PC III referred to 1 & 2 cylinders differently over the years

rbabos

April 21, 2020, 07:55:44 AM #19 Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 08:21:36 AM by rbabos
Quote from: Jamie Long on April 21, 2020, 07:40:11 AM
Quote from: rbabos on April 21, 2020, 07:19:55 AM
Quote from: Jamie Long on April 21, 2020, 07:07:41 AM
With all PC-V maps and modules Front Cylinder is #1, Rear Cylinder is #2
We pulled the rear sensor off and ran the software. Front cyl was running on WBAFR2. Sent vid to Dynojet and and Chris said it was backwards.
Ron

That's the easiest way to check operation for sure, unplug one sensor and see which channel drops out of the software. You can also refer to the Install Instructions Steps 5 & 6 to establish proper sensor orientation front/rear. This can indeed be a bit confusing as H-D, the aftermarket, and even the PC III referred to 1 & 2 cylinders differently over the years
Thanks Jamie. He's likely on the road testing it now. Will know how it pans out soon. Confusing, yes,  regarding HD and PCV. Cable throttle big twins, rear is number 1. FBW, front is number 1 and v rods front is number 1. The terminals need to match up to this and be correct to that cyl.

Ron

Hossamania

I did not know that about cable and FBW being different #1 cylinders. Good to know. Doesn't make sense, but good to know.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Jamie Long

April 21, 2020, 11:40:06 AM #21 Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 11:45:58 AM by Jamie Long
To be very clear; ALL Dynojet PC-V units refer to the Front Cylinder as #1, the Rear Cylinder as #2. This is also listed in the install instructions.


rbabos

Update. Reversing the sensors is now producing normal looking trims. Not that -30 in the front cyl as it was before swapping them.
Ron

rbabos

Quote from: Jamie Long on April 21, 2020, 11:40:06 AM
To be very clear; ALL Dynojet PC-V units refer to the Front Cylinder as #1, the Rear Cylinder as #2. This is also listed in the install instructions.


Except the very odd one they even admit went out programmed wrong .. This just happens to be one of them.  "Potty mouth" happens. Sorting it out is the frustrating time consuming part. On the other hand, I'm quite impressed with the potential of the PCV especially for this boosted bike.
Ron

Jamie Long

Quote from: rbabos on April 21, 2020, 11:58:15 AM
Except the very odd one they even admit went out programmed wrong .. This just happens to be one of them.  "Potty mouth" happens. Sorting it out is the frustrating time consuming part. On the other hand, I'm quite impressed with the potential of the PCV especially for this boosted bike.
Ron

Just curious what was programmed wrong? the config tables respect #1 as front cyl and #2 as rear and this cannot be changed as far as I can recall.