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Electrical issue?

Started by Scootrskum, May 14, 2020, 11:06:33 AM

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Scootrskum

Being the electrical idiot I am I need some help and/or advice. I have a '93 Fatboy and while doing some work with the tanks off I happened to notice that the larger "brown" wire connected to terminal "A" on the starter switch is getting quite hot on both sides of the connector mounted in the frame whenever I turn ON the ignition. It's stays cool until I turn ON the switch. With the switch OFF the Voltage is 12.7 at terminal "A", 12.7 at the breaker and 12.7 at the starter. With the switch ON the voltage drops to 12.3 at each point. I realize when the switch is turned ON it energizes the entire electrical system but that is where my brain decides to give up. What would make the wire get hot ONLY when the switch is ON?  Everything works fine but I don't like the wire being so hot.

Thanks

JW113

I'm having a hard time visualizing where this hot spot you're talking about is. I have a '92 wiring diagram, can't imagine much changed in '93, and I see no brown wires in the start circuit. There is a gray wire from the ignition circuit breaker to the RUN/STOP switch, and short white wire from RUN/STOP to START, and a black wire from START to the starter relay. The only brown wires are in the turn signal circuit. Also, do you connector 2A/2B?

Even though the wire is getting hot, can you try turning on the bike and making sure all four turn signals are lighting up?

I tried to pull up the wiring diagram for your '93 in the tech info section, but for what ever reason, they will not open.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

cheech

May 14, 2020, 11:51:39 AM #2 Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 12:39:27 PM by cheech
To start, there is a: Ignition switch (between tanks), a start switch/button (on the handlebar), and a start relay (usually on the rear fender extension).
Snip below shows Ignition and relay. So when you say "A" and if you are referring to A on the Ignition switch?
All the power to the lights and accessories and ignition is being drawn through that wire and terminal. Anytime you have that, conductors get hot.

Is it getting excessively hot?  :nix:
You would have to put a capable ammeter inline with that wire and terminal and see the draw in amps. There may be bad/corroded connections in that circuit or downstream of it.
If wires leading to the starter switch/button or relay are getting hot anytime the start button isn't pressed there are some issues for sure. Like as short in one of them.
[attach=0,msg1346903]

cheech

Quote from: JW113 on May 14, 2020, 11:40:20 AM
I'm having a hard time visualizing where this hot spot you're talking about is. I have a '92 wiring diagram, can't imagine much changed in '93,
Ive got a 92 pulled up also.
To the A there is a tan one.

Scootrskum

Exactly! Tan but looks brown to me after 30 years. :-) I pulled the wiring diagram again and it's listed as TAN. Sorry. Yes the TAN wire attached to the "A" terminal which comes from the main harness connector sandwiched in the frame between the tanks. It's hot when you hold onto to it but not to the point of melting the wire. I didn't realize that it being "hot" was fairly normal. I pulled the connector apart and sprayed contact cleaner in there and scrubbed with a tooth brush but maybe I need to follow the complete circuit and clean terminals as well.

cheech

Quote from: JW113 on May 14, 2020, 11:40:20 AM
I tried to pull up the wiring diagram for your '93 in the tech info section, but for what ever reason, they will not open.
-JW
Oh and JW
P.S. announcement,  FSG posted this;
"Hhmmmmm  for shts & giggles edit the URL the link sends you to and change the w ww.box.net  to  app.box.com"

In this thread https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,112280.0.html

It works, so hopefully he makes it a sticky in all those Tech and Doc forums.
I seen it and made a memo in Notepad on my desktop.

cheech

Scootrskum, those years didn't use sealed connectors as you can see. So there very well may be slight corrosion in any of those connection points.
So it may be getting hotter than usual so to speak.

Scootrskum

Is it getting excessively hot? 
You would have to put a capable ammeter inline with that wire and terminal and see the draw in amps. There may be bad/corroded connections in that circuit or downstream of it.
If wires leading to the starter switch/button or relay are getting hot anytime the start button isn't pressed there are some issues for sure. Like as short in one of them.

OK. I just checked the wires at the relay while I pushed the start button. They are fine but the TAN wire gets SUPER hot while the start button is depressed. ugh.....

Dan89flstc

May 14, 2020, 12:30:24 PM #8 Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 12:41:16 PM by Dan89flstc
Follow the tan wire down to the connector underneath the dash panel, is the tan wire on the other side of the connector hot also?

That wire carries the entire electrical load to the system, other than the high current to the starter motor.

I just popped the dash off my `89 Softail (virtually the same electrical system other than turn signal wiring), turned the ignition on , headlights, spots...

5 minutes and the tan wire is cool to the touch.
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Coyote

The wire will get hot where the connection is bad. That's where the resistance has gone up. So concentrate on that area.

Scootrskum

Follow the tan wire down to the connector underneath the dash panel, is the tan wire on the other side of the connector hot also?

That wire carries the entire electrical load to the system, other than the high current to the starter motor.

LOL. I've been looking for you!!! I am actually trying to do the dbl relay mod you did years ago to fix the "click" issue with the older bikes. I have been using a button on the end of the starter for years since copying your post. Now I'm too fat to bend over w/o falling over so I figured i'd perform your mod.

Yes, it gets equally as hot on both sides of the connector. Once I press the start button (that still clicks :-) it gets super hot.



Scootrskum

I just popped the dash off my `89 Softail (virtually the same electrical system other than turn signal wiring), turned the ignition on , headlights, spots...

5 minutes and the tan wire is cool to the touch.

Hey man thanks for the extra effort!!!! I definately have an issue then. 

Dan89flstc

Check the tan wire at the main breaker on the rear inner fender extension, it is hot there also?
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Scootrskum

Check the tan wire at the main breaker on the rear inner fender extension, it is hot there also?

Sure is! If I hold down the start button continuosly it gets very hot!

Of course now that's it's sitting on a lift it wants to start instead of doing the dreaded click.  :angry:

Dan89flstc

Are any of the other wires at the ignition switch or breakers getting hot?

Red wire coming off location D on the switch, going to accessory breaker...
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Scootrskum

Are any of the other wires at the ignition switch or breakers getting hot?

Every wire on the switch gets very hot when I hold down the starter button. Two of the breakers under the dash are warm on the connection side for the corresponding wires from the ignition switch. The red wire at terminal "D" gets hotter quicker than the rest though. The red wire is also hot down to the connector. They get too hot to touch actually but I'm holding down the start button way longer than I would normally if that matters? . I ASSume the red wire is the one that goes to the starter relay? I can't tell if it's hot at the relay as the main breaker shunted before I could tell.

Dan89flstc

Do any wires (other than the tan wire) get hot if you turn ignition on, but do not press the start button?
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Scootrskum

Do any wires (other than the tan wire) get hot if you turn ignition on, but do not press the start button?

No. Only the tan wire.

cheech

Some circuit drawing current while the Ignition switch is on and starter button not pressed. One of those circuits must have a issue. May be the start solenoid circuit in addition?
BTW, have you unbolted the ignition switch? Seen on the underside to make sure the brass buttons and the roller contact aren't extremely worn or corroded?
The terminal for the tan wire could be.

Dan89flstc

Inspect the green wire that runs between the starter relay and the starter solenoid, is it touching the frame, possibly frayed?

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Scootrskum

Some circuit drawing current while the Ignition switch is on and starter button not pressed. One of those circuits must have a issue. May be the start solenoid circuit in addition?
BTW, have you unbolted the ignition switch? Seen on the underside to make sure the brass buttons and the roller contact aren't extremely worn or corroded?
The terminal for the tan wire could be.

Will do! Nearly all the terminals have corrosion to some extent and I was going to address that first. I will just start checking every wire in the system including the green relay/solenoid wire and the ignition switch.

Would buying a new complete wiring harmess be helpful? $205 but maybe worth the hassle since all the wires are so old? I already have a complete new dash panel with associated wiring I am going to install, since the bulbs are falling out of the orginal one.  :emsad:

Thank you SO much for your time and help. It's greatly appreciated!!!


Scootrskum

I'm baaaaccckkkkk!

I have spent much of the past weekend checking wires and installing a competely new wired dash. Good news is as far as the dash all works great. I checked voltage for the starter circuits and all is 12V (give or take a 10th) except for the Red/Blk wire coming out of the relay at the 86 terminal. I see it's for a Califoriai model bike, which mine is not, so one of the two wires is not connected to anything. The other runs to the ignition switch. My question is, the voltage there is only 7V or so when the ignition switch is pressed. Why is that and does it matter?

Second question. Is it worth the expense ($200) to by a new V-Twin Mfg Builder's Wiring Harness and be done with the old wires? Some of the dash wires were nasty and blackish looking. Not good correct?

Thanks for all the help!!




cheech

Well 86 is starter relay coil that is hot with start button pressed. Make sure that spare wire isn't shorted somewhere.
7 volt at the 86 terminal?
7 volt with DVOM negative lead on battery negative and positive on the 86?
Yes it does matter.

Scootrskum

Make sure that spare wire isn't shorted somewhere.

*Spare is just a short wire hanging in thin air with an insulated connector.

7 volt with DVOM negative lead on battery negative and positive on the 86?

*Correct!

Guess I know my next step... :-)

Thanks Cheech

rigidthumper

Standard relay has one of two conditions- if off, 87A should be shorted to 30. If on (energized), 87 should be shorted to 30. You can disconnect 30 & 87, and use the start switch and an ohm meter to check relay function.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

cheech

Ok was checking.
But remember those cheat sheets I sent you. It was to much to type.
Go the other way.
Have the DVOM positve on the battery positive, DVOM negative lead on the 86 and check the 30 while you're at it.
That will give you your actual voltage drop under load.
Regardless 7 volts at the 86 isn't a good situation nor the wire getting hot.
There isn't much of a load there.

And the V twin MFG? Most of that stuff is not worth your time. So I'd expect the wire harnesses are on par with that. But I don't know I never used one.

Scootrskum

I will attemp that but I actually have a spare relay and it does the same thing. Still possible though.

Thanks

cheech

Quote from: Scootrskum on May 20, 2020, 06:23:37 PM
I will attemp that but I actually have a spare relay and it does the same thing. Still possible though.

Thanks
The 7 volt situation probably isn't caused by the relay. There is something funky, an issue going on in the wiring. To it? Maybe to Ignition switch?

Hossamania

Probably not related to your issues, but I have taken my dash ignition switch apart a couple times over the years to clean it up. The contacts get pretty corroded. I couldn't remember if you had mentioned it in this thread or not, and I didn't re-read all of it.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Dan89flstc

May 21, 2020, 06:25:27 AM #29 Last Edit: May 21, 2020, 06:44:11 AM by Dan89flstc
The low voltage at the relay is caused by either low voltage in the system, or excess resistance upstream...The relay has nothing to do with low voltage at the Red/Black wire.

Work back toward the power source:

Pull the connector apart for the right hand switches, clean the pins, and make sure no pins are pushed out of the connector.

After you clean the pins and re connect the connector, read the voltage at the gray wire, both sides of the connector.

With start button pushed, read voltage at the Red/Black wire in the connector, also read the voltage on the black wire on the other side of the connector.
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