Ultima Bit Me Again

[Deye76]

Many know when I got a Ultima 113", it made it only 8 miles and the oil pump seized. So Ultima sent a crate, says they rebuilt, but wouldn't tell me what they replaced, and what they didn't, except when I questioned, said lower end was OK. Have about 10K on it, making terrible noise, only when hot, quiet when cold. Dropped the oil, metal in it. Likely lifters, or rocker arms. Hasn't used any oil, pumps 199psi front cyl. and 195psi rear cyl. With metal through it twice, I think it needs a complete rebuild to be trusted. My question is, what quality crank assy, can I put in?  Not sure what bearings, tapered Timken or plain straight roller are in Ultima's. Back when the oil pump let go, doing some checking, Darkhorse said don't bother rebuilding a Ultima assy.

[choseneasy]

Rip it apart- you will know more then.
If it needs a complete redo sometimes a new crate engine is a better deal.

[capn]

Ultimas use a tapered timken crank bearing.Sorry youre having trouble again . My 120 runs good makes no bad noises but is starting to seep oil out the front head gasket.

[Deye76]

Ultimas use a tapered timken crank bearing.Sorry youre having trouble again . My 120 runs good makes no bad noises but is starting to seep oil out the front head gasket.

So I should be able to use a S&S 4.5 stroke crank assy., correct?

[turboprop]

Ultimas use a tapered timken crank bearing.Sorry youre having trouble again . My 120 runs good makes no bad noises but is starting to seep oil out the front head gasket.

So I should be able to use a S&S 4.5 stroke crank assy., correct?

That Ultima 113 uses a longer pinion shaft than an oem harley 80 crank. The 4" bore evo engines that S&S used to sell (100", 107" and 113") all had a pinion shaft that was ¼" longer than the 80" oem. Not sure, but I bet that Ultima is a copy of the crank used in the 4" bore engines from S&S.

If it were me, I would send  the engine case, wrist pins and the weight of the piston assemblies to Darkhorse Cranks. The guys will size the connecting rods to the wrist pins.

There are plenty of sources for good lifters and rocker arms. Nothing proprietary about the ultima stuff.

I hate this for you. Are you going to be up intimate for the Jam?

[capn]

S&S does sell the longer pinion shaft cranks.But like turbo mentioned the wrist pin size may be different.

[Deye76]

Bad lifter, took out the cam. Anyone know if the valve the springs in Ultima heads are overkill?

[Deye76]

" I bet that Ultima is a copy of the crank used in the 4" bore engines from S&S."

Finding info on what's in a Ultima motor isn't easy. Appears the U 113 utilizes same length rods, 7.440", but the wrist pins on the U are .972" compared to .792" on the S&S. Flywheel diameter on the S&S is 8.5" and is 5 piece bolted together, while the flywheel diameter on the U is 8.250" and is the 3 piece pressed variety. The U pistons are proprietary for the U cylinder heads at that CR.  Don't know if I can run a S&S bottom, and try to source pistons, or see if Darkhorse will rebuild my U bottom end. Thoughts from those that know?

[Ohio HD]

John I don't have those answers. But if I were in your shoes, and maybe you already have, I'd be asking John Sachs if he's ever gone down this road.

[turboprop]

" I bet that Ultima is a copy of the crank used in the 4" bore engines from S&S."

Finding info on what's in a Ultima motor isn't easy. Appears the U 113 utilizes same length rods, 7.440", but the wrist pins on the U are .972" compared to .792" on the S&S. Flywheel diameter on the S&S is 8.5" and is 5 piece bolted together, while the flywheel diameter on the U is 8.250" and is the 3 piece pressed variety. The U pistons are proprietary for the U cylinder heads at that CR.  Don't know if I can run a S&S bottom, and try to source pistons, or see if Darkhorse will rebuild my U bottom end. Thoughts from those that know?

What do the tops of those proprietary Ultima pistons look like and what is their compression deck height?

[kd]

The Ultima and Merch connection may be what you need to look at.  There is some history there that could be relevant.

http://www.ultimaproducts.com/Merch.pdf

http://www.ultimaproducts.com/Engine_Big_Book_2017.pdf

[Deye76]

kd, thanks for that. See it was revised 2016. My 2017 catalog that came with the motor doesn't have those piston part numbers, for the 113". 

Turboprop, haven't removed the heads yet. In the book the pistons look like flat tops. Note from Ultima: "The piston shape matches Ultima cylinder heads. Chamber design & compression ratios are using Ultima heads ONLY."
Ultima heads are supposed to be 94cc. The pistons with U heads are listed at 10.2:1 cr. Elsewhere in the catalog the same piston part numbers are under Mahle Pistons, and say "For Ultima 113" 11.2:1 ratio, 1.200 pin height, dome."
Confusing. Maybe the 11.2:1 is a typo error. As you and Ohio suggested, I'll get a hold of DH, see what they have to say. Thanks everyone.

[turboprop]

kd, thanks for that. See it was revised 2016. My 2017 catalog that came with the motor doesn't have those piston part numbers, for the 113". 

Turboprop, haven't removed the heads yet. In the book the pistons look like flat tops. Note from Ultima: "The piston shape matches Ultima cylinder heads. Chamber design & compression ratios are using Ultima heads ONLY."
Ultima heads are supposed to be 94cc. The pistons with U heads are listed at 10.2:1 cr. Elsewhere in the catalog the same piston part numbers are under Mahle Pistons, and say "For Ultima 113" 11.2:1 ratio, 1.200 pin height, dome."
Confusing. Maybe the 11.2:1 is a typo error. As you and Ohio suggested, I'll get a hold of DH, see what they have to say. Thanks everyone.

I dont know a lot about the Ultima 113 engine, but have built a few engines using Ultima engine cases. I thought the Ultima engine cases were very high quality. They certainly fit together better than anything I have used from Delkron. Depending on the height of the case deck and length of the cylinders, I bet a really good engine could be built using the Ultima case, cylinders and heads. Some of the other minutia like lifter blocks and rocker boxes could probably be kept as well. Hopefully some S&S wheels will fit inside that case and the various heights allow an off the shelf non proprietary piston to be run with those heads. Very anxious to see how tis turns out.

You and I have a couple mutual friends that will be at the Ja in a few weeks with their 120 Ultimas. Have you shared any of this with Larry and/or Tom?

[capn]

S&S and Ultima dont make it easy to figure what parts fit each others motors.

[Racepres]

S&S and Ultima dont make it easy to figure what parts fit each others motors.

I wouldn't either... especially considering the Ultima S&S ~ Clone, E Carb.... POS

[capn]

Yeah those carbs are not worth the time it takes to work on them.I have owned two an E and G.

[Deye76]

Not about carbs, that's been covered already. 
Turbo, yeah have shared with Larry & Tom. Thanks for your help and generous offers. Humbled and appreciative.

[prodrag1320]

back in the day we sold ALOT of Ultima 127 motors,bought them all un assembled & did checking of parts & assembly in house,)0 engine failures.Ultima dosnt have "engine builders" putting these motors together

[Burnout]

Sounds like the Gilroy Indians story

[JW113]

My only dealings with Ultima was a set of engine cases when I found the right side case of my '92 was cracked. Have to say, the Ultima case was a thing of beauty. It also came with new Timkens and a correctly sized spacer. However, when I tried to re-use my stock oil pump, I had no oil pressure below about 2500 rpm. And zero help from Ultima why that would be. I finally bought one of their oil pumps, also very nice looking, and problem solved. Would have been nice of them to have it written somewhere that certain stock components are not compatible with their stuff.

In Deye's case here, it seems like engine building is not the problem. The motor ran for quite some time before failure. Doesn't Ultima have a lot of history with failed tappets and rocker arms? Other than knowing that, and not using their valve train parts, how would one inspect for this at time of engine building?

-JW

[choseneasy]

The original Merch company had great specs while the original owner had control.
  Partnerships sometimes are not the best but sometimes necessary to grow a company.