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Head Gasket leak, oil

Started by N-gin, May 19, 2020, 09:20:31 AM

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N-gin

I moved to Georgia 2 years ago, and between schooling for a new career and building I have forgot what I did to install the comedic gaskets. I don't see copper spray on the exposed gasket area. The bore for gasket is 4.2 and thickness is .03 .
Is there an O-ring suppose to be there? The engine is fresh top to bottom with only 1400 miles. Pistons and cylinders from FM. Heads from HDSP. Bottom end from DH. DT oil pump. S&S T2 block.
A bit after the build it would filling up the oil catch can pretty fast over 3000 RPM, about the same time I noticed a oil spot on the ground. Could a popped head gasket make the oil catch fill up? My compression is down to 170 when, fresh it was 235psi cold.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

Ohio HD

You should try a leak down test. Chances are the cylinder pressure is going by the rings, causing high crank case pressure, and causing the head breathers to evacuate more oil. It's a place to start.

I've never used an o-ring with an MLS head gasket.

les

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 19, 2020, 10:15:05 AM
You should try a leak down test. Chances are the cylinder pressure is going by the rings, causing high crank case pressure, and causing the head breathers to evacuate more oil. It's a place to start.

I've never used an o-ring with an MLS head gasket.

I did.  I used an o-ring on my first top end build with an MLS gasket.  When I got tired of the oil leaking all over the engine, I changed my mind and decided to not use o-rings with MLS gaskets.  lol

N-gin

Hi guys so it's been a while.
I gone through withdraw with the bike not running well. Good thing my sister had a Street 500 I could get in the wind on.

Did a cylinder leaked down test finally and it reads 80 regulated and 79 cylinder. It was pretty hard to stop the tire from spinning even with the brake and in gear.
So I tore into it.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

N-gin

This is the rear head.
Any helpful suggestions on sealing big bores?
Running 220 PSI in the cylinders.

I may have them opened up a bit to lower it 210. Besides I don't like the sharp edges around the CR.
There can s a good amount of oil in the exhaust runner as well..
But from what I gather I'm guessing the gasket was leaking into the oil passage due to the witness marks on the gasket.
I think the next go around will be some sealer on the does for the oil passages.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

Pirsch Fire Wagon

You shouldn't have to seal anything.

Did you use the Torque Specks that come with the Cometic Gaskets? They're quite a bit higher than stock ones. Check the Deck as well for being true. I know you said they were done but perhaps something was overlooked.

At 220 psig I would consider venting the Crankcase as well. Perhaps the Fueling.
Tom

kd

 :agree:  and would add that the Cometic MLS gaskets have a micro rubber coating, The gasket surface should be surgically clean with no finger prints or the like to jeopardize the rubber contact to the head and barrel surfaces.  An easy mistake to make when assembling.
KD

N-gin

Yes I have a catch can. It is hooked up to the HP breathers.
The catch can would fill up fast at 3000 rpm or higher. But below that I could go some distance before emptying the can.
I'm thinking the cylinder pressure would overcome the oil system and force it's way in creating excessive crank case psi and that's why it puked out oil. This is speculation though.
And oil in the port was clause at idle the oil pressure will infiltrate the cylinder. Again speculation. Anyone have some insight?
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

838

I had a cylinder go out of round. Caused exact same symptoms. Other things I checked were opening up breather bolts, checking umbrella valves for proper direction. Ended up boring cylinders .020" over with some KB pistons... problem solved.

Don D

Bingo 838. Your rings are not sealing. Blowby is crankcase pressure, leakage by the rings. Now the cylinders need to be bored next oversize and proper honing done to enable a break in that happens relatively quickly. I would bet your cylinders are all over the place as far as straight and true.

Ohio HD

Quote from: N-gin on February 22, 2021, 03:02:00 PM
Yes I have a catch can. It is hooked up to the HP breathers.
The catch can would fill up fast at 3000 rpm or higher. But below that I could go some distance before emptying the can.
I'm thinking the cylinder pressure would overcome the oil system and force it's way in creating excessive crank case psi and that's why it puked out oil. This is speculation though.
And oil in the port was clause at idle the oil pressure will infiltrate the cylinder. Again speculation. Anyone have some insight?

I get zero oil in the catch can, TC 124". I get a little dirty slimey  moister when the weather is really humid. Or a really cold motor (40° or less) and warmed up it makes some condensation. I have great ring seal. Only use the OEM head breathers. Solve the seal problem, not add more venting.

It might be in your interest to contact Zippers and ask them about their cylinder liner stress relieving process. They'll then bore and hone, and deck the head gasket surface after the liner is relived of stress.

Some cylinders although are round when in torque plates and honed. When they're later torqued again, they're not round. It also could be the cylinders weren't prepped right from the get go.


838

My build was dynod so I broke in the new pistons hard on the road. All I get in the catch can now is water and a little foam every so often.

FXDBI

Jamie is pretty anal about his cylinder/piston fit and finish. Try this on a set of cylinders you THINK are clean before assembly. I wont build one with out using this, heard about it here in HTT and bought some it was a eye opener.   Bob

https://www.totalseal.com/product/quick-seat

838

Quote from: FXDBI on February 22, 2021, 03:52:27 PM
Jamie is pretty anal about his cylinder/piston fit and finish. Try this on a set of cylinders you THINK are clean before assembly. I wont build one with out using this, heard about it here in HTT and bought some it was a eye opener.   Bob

https://www.totalseal.com/product/quick-seat

Yup. Great product!

N-gin

When I do the leak down test I have very little cylinder leak. I'm only showing 1 psi difference.
I'll have the rest pulled down in a day or so.
Other info; I drilled out the breathers, the break in was on a dyno, the shirts of the pistons were coated.
I think I just got it too hot and popped the gaskets, I hope 🤔
I'll investigate further.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

Ohio HD

What was the % of leak down?

You should do a leak down test with the piston at TDC, BTD and again at mid stroke.

Lock the motor with this.

https://www.jimsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/753-IS.pdf


838

Quote from: N-gin on February 22, 2021, 06:11:48 PM
When I do the leak down test I have very little cylinder leak. I'm only showing 1 psi difference.
I'll have the rest pulled down in a day or so.
Other info; I drilled out the breathers, the break in was on a dyno, the shirts of the pistons were coated.
I think I just got it too hot and popped the gaskets, I hope 🤔
I'll investigate further.

My build still had 210ccp in both cylinders and very little leak down. They were FM pistons and cylinders too, tiny oil rings.

N-gin

Quote from: Ohio HD on February 22, 2021, 06:32:02 PM
What was the % of leak down?

You should do a leak down test with the piston at TDC, BTD and again at mid stroke.

Lock the motor with this.

https://www.jimsusa.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/753-IS.pdf

Well I set the gauge at 80psi and the cylinder was around 79psi
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

Don D

You have it pulled down. The pistons show signs of oil in the combustion,  lots of it. The rest is minutiae. The goal is to get it fixed. If you send me the cylinders I will give you a cylinder map and we can decide what is the best fix for the long haul. I have .005 over CP full skirt pistons with a CVO dome that can be trimmed to suit the application and they have a 2.5mm oil ring.

N-gin

I have less than 2000k miles on this. I really don't want to trough out a set of pistons I spent 500$ on to only get that many miles.
Do you guys think I can just hone and re-ring?
I'm going to call Jamie and see what he says. But since it's been so long I fought he will do anything.

[attach=0]
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

838

Line-2-line might have a coating option that will allow you to reuse the pistons. Call them 👍.

Mine also had less than 2k on it. I ordered oversized KB pistons and had cylinders bored and honed. Sold the old pistons (without rings) on eBay for 250 or so to retain some $.

N-gin

I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

N-gin

Quote from: 838 on February 23, 2021, 08:50:43 AM
Line-2-line might have a coating option that will allow you to reuse the pistons. Call them 👍.

Mine also had less than 2k on it. I ordered oversized KB pistons and had cylinders bored and honed. Sold the old pistons (without rings) on eBay for 250 or so to retain some $.

I already have the line to line coating on them.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

FLDavetrain

Quote from: 838 on February 23, 2021, 08:50:43 AM
Line-2-line might have a coating option that will allow you to reuse the pistons. Call them 👍.

Mine also had less than 2k on it. I ordered oversized KB pistons and had cylinders bored and honed. Sold the old pistons (without rings) on eBay for 250 or so to retain some $.

So on a piston/cylinder combo out of round you sold the pistons wout rings for $250...wow guess there really is someone out there for everyone
currently 510ci on tap

838

Quote from: FLDavetrain on February 23, 2021, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: 838 on February 23, 2021, 08:50:43 AM
Line-2-line might have a coating option that will allow you to reuse the pistons. Call them 👍.

Mine also had less than 2k on it. I ordered oversized KB pistons and had cylinders bored and honed. Sold the old pistons (without rings) on eBay for 250 or so to retain some $.

So on a piston/cylinder combo out of round you sold the pistons wout rings for $250...wow guess there really is someone out there for everyone

🤷‍♂️. I buy and sell on ebay a lot to fund my own horsepower habit. Everything sells eventually. They were good pistons for the right project I guess!

Don D

No way of making decisions without plating the barrels and seeing how distorted they are.

kd

February 23, 2021, 12:15:43 PM #26 Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 12:20:40 PM by kd
 :agree:  The barrels need to come off anyway.  You will also get a good look at your piston skirts to check for staining from bypass at the rings.

BTW, when you blow it up, does it look like the there is exhaust valve contact in that first cylinder pic?  It doesn't seem evident on the head pic.
KD

Don D

Number 2 ring is not working.  Why? Measurements tell the story.

N-gin

Here is a look at the piston.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

N-gin

Im sending the parts out for inspection to the ones that did the work and sold me the items.
They will make and assessment and point me in the right direction.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

kd

Quote from: N-gin on February 27, 2021, 06:16:59 AM
Here is a look at the piston.

Nice pic.  From what is visible, the piston looks fine with no scuffing,  The previous pics where the cylinder wall is included also don't show scuffing or even any unusual contact.  They look pretty cherry actually.

To me, I see the oil ring pack as being installed correctly.  Your pic is in great focus and it looks to me like the 2nd ring is flexing with the taper down as it should be, and it is doing it's job scraping the oil from the cylinder walls (if the shine on it's ring face is witness to the contact patch). There is no staining below the 2nd ring and that means it is doing it's job properly.  The top ring however appears to be bypassing, as evident by the staining between it and the second ring.  I can't see from the pic how it is contacting the cylinder or if it is installed correctly.  It does look as though the top of the ring is radiused more than the bottom so if that's the case it will be right.  It may not be seating properly, or was just not able to handle the extra ingress of liquid oil (as apposed to vapor) from the gasket failure spot.  If installed right, the top ring should be mostly contacting along the bottom edge and that (and the radius at the top if that's what it is) will skate over oil rather than remove it. That is designed in to the operation for lubrication but can be overwhelmed.   You can see the clean spot on the piston that is adjacent to the gasket leak is indicating liquid oil contamination by the clean spot by the leak. 

As stated, map the barrels and if OK I would whisker hone and re-ring. Inspect the gasket surface first incase a cleanup cut is needed at the leak position.  My two cents.  :teeth:
KD

Don D


N-gin

Thank you, kd
I sent out the cylinders and pistons to FM who I bought them from.
The heads are going to HDSP as well cause he did the heads.
I made a lot of power with this combo I have and it runs really smooth for what it is. I figure the heads would need a lil love and hopefully I can just re-ring and hone.
Hopefully turn around time is not too bad.

Don, you've got mail.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

N-gin

Update:
I received the cylinders back from the supplier that had rehoned them for me. I was putting it together and found the steel sleeve that is fitted to the cylinders are .007 down. This is starting to make sense why Cometic told me the gasket was fluttering after they saw the gaskets.
I call the supplier of the cylinders and he said to take 220 grit and start to cut the top of the cylinder on a flat surface.
I'm in the process of doing that now.
I'm using 100, 220, then 600. All with oil.
They look ok. I'm also cleaning the pushrod covers cause I have witness marks on the tubes were the pushrods are hitting.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

Don D

Oh my, I realize at home on a weekend this may make sense. But really the cylinders need to be trued on a lathe with the proper tooling.

Ohio HD

Quote from: N-gin on May 16, 2021, 02:19:06 PM
Update:
I received the cylinders back from the supplier that had rehoned them for me. I was putting it together and found the steel sleeve that is fitted to the cylinders are .007 down. This is starting to make sense why Cometic told me the gasket was fluttering after they saw the gaskets.
I call the supplier of the cylinders and he said to take 220 grit and start to cut the top of the cylinder on a flat surface.
I'm in the process of doing that now.
I'm using 100, 220, then 600. All with oil.
They look ok. I'm also cleaning the pushrod covers cause I have witness marks on the tubes were the pushrods are hitting.

So are the sleeves moving then?

If it were me, I'd invest in new good quality cylinders.
Also I would suggest not trying to sand the head gasket surfaces and hope they remain completely flat. You'd have to know the surface you're using is completely flat. And glass isn't always flat.

kd

May 16, 2021, 05:22:27 PM #36 Last Edit: May 16, 2021, 06:00:08 PM by kd
What ever you remove from the top of the cylinder will increase your compression, reduce your quench (squish), lower the valves to the eyebrow of the piston valve relief etc..  you will have to compensate with a thicker base gasket to get back to where you were or use a thicker head gasket. For that reason you will need to know exactly what is removed and mock it up to confirm deck height before and after. Proper machining is in order or a fresh start with a decent set of barrels. Either way you're juggling a new top end build with all of the checks and balances it takes to control the dimensions.
KD

Don D

Begs the question if the liner moved? If so there are bigger issues.

kd

I agree.  Maybe using a jeweler's loop for a look at the lower end will show if it has moved down.  There may be a clean break in the machining at the inside radius of the spigot and maybe some other abnormal visuals.  The top will probably be contaminated from combustion gasses.  If Cometic called it by looking at the gasket it makes you wonder.  Typically the top of the barrel is machined across both the liner and the casting.
KD

Hossamania

I'm also curious that the supplier that honed them didn't see that?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

kd

I cant see how it's possible.   :scratch:  There must be an oversize - machine to fit C&C target with assembled barrels.  Who knows?   :nix:
KD

Appowner

Interesting thread. 

Learning a lot. 

Thanks All!

Don D

IIRC this build has 4.18" bore. Me personally, I sleeve them at this bore with Ductile Iron to assure there is .090" wall Min. in the cylinder. Bored out 4.125" cylinders will not be stable and live there IME

N-gin

Quote from: Hossamania on May 16, 2021, 06:39:34 PM
I'm also curious that the supplier that honed them didn't see that?

That was my question as well when I called.
Like I said, they told me to take 220 and not worry.

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 16, 2021, 04:39:27 PM
Quote from: N-gin on May 16, 2021, 02:19:06 PM
Update:
I received the cylinders back from the supplier that had rehoned them for me. I was putting it together and found the steel sleeve that is fitted to the cylinders are .007 down. This is starting to make sense why Cometic told me the gasket was fluttering after they saw the gaskets.
I call the supplier of the cylinders and he said to take 220 grit and start to cut the top of the cylinder on a flat surface.
I'm in the process of doing that now.
I'm using 100, 220, then 600. All with oil.
They look ok. I'm also cleaning the pushrod covers cause I have witness marks on the tubes were the pushrods are hitting.

So are the sleeves moving then?

If it were me, I'd invest in new good quality cylinders.
Also I would suggest not trying to sand the head gasket surfaces and hope they remain completely flat. You'd have to know the surface you're using is completely flat. And glass isn't always flat.

Yes I agree it's not completely flat. However it's not that big of a span/surface. Also I'm just taking the aluminum down to the sleeve. If it's a little off I doubt it will be as much as .007 like it was.

Quote from: kd
link=topic=112568.msg1386227#msg1386227 date=1621210947

What ever you remove from the top of the cylinder will increase your compression, reduce your quench (squish), lower the valves to the eyebrow of the piston valve relief etc..  you will have to compensate with a thicker base gasket to get back to where you were or use a thicker head gasket. For that reason you will need to know exactly what is removed and mock it up to confirm deck height before and after. Proper machining is in order or a fresh start with a decent set of barrels. Either way you're juggling a new top end build with all of the checks and balances it takes to control the dimensions.

I get the stack up. I am using a .020 base gasket now. Before I used a .010. so I think I'll be ok. I'm still going to check though. As far as compression goes I'm ok. The difference is minimal and Don opened the chambers slightly.

I think I'll be ok..
If I have a problem again I'm going to do what Don recamended.

I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

N-gin

This is long winded. Thank you all for reading if you choose to. I hope this helps someone in the future.

Hello all,
its been a while and for a good reason. It took me this long to cool down and get my head straight about how I want to put an end to this thread. Even now I feel heart palpitations thinking and going through everything that transpired.

I sent the heads back for a third time to the "head specialist" that originally did the heads. I got them back and put all new gaskets. Made sure the torque was correct. I did one individual step day by day.
I will remind you all that I have done many Harley engines. So this is just going through the motions, however making sure it is as good as it can be.
No issues going together at all.
Took it down the road and it filled the catch can with in 50 miles.
I called the "head specialist" he informed me that the heads were known for cracking after being welded (wich BTW were a brand new set of MVA P castings when first sent out to the "porter"). Mind you sending heads to Washington is not cheap from Ga THREE TIMES. So after all this he finally tells me this.
So after my blood pressure blew through my eyes and a moment of silence over the phone, I asked what can be done.

YOU ALL READY FOR WHAT HE SAID...

" You still have the 110 heads that are new right"? "Send those with the MVA heads and Ill do the 110s to flow like the MVAs"
Then...
"It will be another $1700 to do this, and Ill have to keep your MVA heads"

Ill remind you all. The last two times cost me well over 500$ each time to supposedly get corrected.

I told him I would think about it.....
There the bike sat for a while. A looong while.

BTW I started recording our conversations and saving the emails the first time I sent the heads back. I had my suspensions.

To get my mind off of things I buried myself into the dirt circle track at Senoia raceway. There I met a guy who used to drag race Harley-Davidsons. He just so happens to know  B. personally. My new found friend told me to send my heads to Mr. B, and have them inspected. I did so. I got a call back from Mr B. and this is what he said....
There is a big gap between the valve guide and where they welded. Because of this gap the valve guide was installed crooked. In the head ended up cracking around the guide. Also the wrong material valve guide was used with the valve, causing excessive wear. To correct this would take a lot of time and money not worth being put into the heads. I also flow tested them and compared them to what the flow numbers were when I received my heads back from the original "Porter". They were not even close. He also added that these aren't even flowing as well as a stock set of MVA heads with minor Port work. To correct this will be $$$$. Because he actually had to make a specific fixture to correct the problem to redrill for the guide.

I said do it. I want all the old parts and everything documented with pictures. We kept in contact sending text messaging and pictures and 7 months later I got my heads back.

I now have a set of MVA heads with a grand total (including shipping)
7900$ no that number is NOT inflated. I added up the receipts.
So you can see why I have not been around here much.

:To be continued:

I need to calm down again.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

Hossamania

Wow wow wow. Sorry to hear all of this.
Good luck with everything, glad you found a good guy to set you up.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

N-gin

BTW
The cost to repair was not as much as the first porter charged to do the heads to begin with. So I guess thats a plus.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

N-gin

The worst thing about this is. I use to send all the heads that need work to him.
Not anymore.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind

Hossamania

Quote from: N-gin on December 17, 2022, 12:53:20 PMThe worst thing about this is. I use to send all the heads that need work to him.
Not anymore.

Definitely not. Let us know how it goes when you can finally talk to him calmly.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Ohio HD

Glad that you finally got the issues sorted out. Breathe, and ride her when the weather warms up. 

No Cents

 I just read this...wow.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

wfolarry

 :wtf:
You should have jumped ship when you started taking on water.
$7900 is new engine territory.
$1700 to do 110 heads is ...... well I won't go there because I don't know what you were getting done but  :scratch:

N-gin

Quote from: wfolarry on December 18, 2022, 06:49:55 AM:wtf:
You should have jumped ship when you started taking on water.
$7900 is new engine territory.
$1700 to do 110 heads is ...... well I won't go there because I don't know what you were getting done but  :scratch:
I had these MVA heads machined to look like 96" heads also finding a decent set of MVAs and having that done all over again was more money than just biting the bullet.
I'm not here cause of a path before me, Im here cause of the burnout left behind