Head Gasket leak, oil

[Don D]

No way of making decisions without plating the barrels and seeing how distorted they are.

[kd]

   The barrels need to come off anyway.  You will also get a good look at your piston skirts to check for staining from bypass at the rings.

BTW, when you blow it up, does it look like the there is exhaust valve contact in that first cylinder pic?  It doesn't seem evident on the head pic.

[Don D]

Number 2 ring is not working.  Why? Measurements tell the story.

[N-gin]

Here is a look at the piston.

[N-gin]

Im sending the parts out for inspection to the ones that did the work and sold me the items.
They will make and assessment and point me in the right direction.

[kd]

Here is a look at the piston.

Nice pic.  From what is visible, the piston looks fine with no scuffing,  The previous pics where the cylinder wall is included also don't show scuffing or even any unusual contact.  They look pretty cherry actually.

To me, I see the oil ring pack as being installed correctly.  Your pic is in great focus and it looks to me like the 2nd ring is flexing with the taper down as it should be, and it is doing it's job scraping the oil from the cylinder walls (if the shine on it's ring face is witness to the contact patch). There is no staining below the 2nd ring and that means it is doing it's job properly.  The top ring however appears to be bypassing, as evident by the staining between it and the second ring.  I can't see from the pic how it is contacting the cylinder or if it is installed correctly.  It does look as though the top of the ring is radiused more than the bottom so if that's the case it will be right.  It may not be seating properly, or was just not able to handle the extra ingress of liquid oil (as apposed to vapor) from the gasket failure spot.  If installed right, the top ring should be mostly contacting along the bottom edge and that (and the radius at the top if that's what it is) will skate over oil rather than remove it. That is designed in to the operation for lubrication but can be overwhelmed.   You can see the clean spot on the piston that is adjacent to the gasket leak is indicating liquid oil contamination by the clean spot by the leak. 

As stated, map the barrels and if OK I would whisker hone and re-ring. Inspect the gasket surface first incase a cleanup cut is needed at the leak position.  My two cents. 

[Don D]

Good advise there

[N-gin]

Thank you, kd
I sent out the cylinders and pistons to FM who I bought them from.
The heads are going to HDSP as well cause he did the heads.
I made a lot of power with this combo I have and it runs really smooth for what it is. I figure the heads would need a lil love and hopefully I can just re-ring and hone.
Hopefully turn around time is not too bad.

Don, you've got mail.

[N-gin]

Update:
I received the cylinders back from the supplier that had rehoned them for me. I was putting it together and found the steel sleeve that is fitted to the cylinders are .007 down. This is starting to make sense why Cometic told me the gasket was fluttering after they saw the gaskets.
I call the supplier of the cylinders and he said to take 220 grit and start to cut the top of the cylinder on a flat surface.
I'm in the process of doing that now.
I'm using 100, 220, then 600. All with oil.
They look ok. I'm also cleaning the pushrod covers cause I have witness marks on the tubes were the pushrods are hitting.

[Don D]

Oh my, I realize at home on a weekend this may make sense. But really the cylinders need to be trued on a lathe with the proper tooling.

[Ohio HD]

Update:
I received the cylinders back from the supplier that had rehoned them for me. I was putting it together and found the steel sleeve that is fitted to the cylinders are .007 down. This is starting to make sense why Cometic told me the gasket was fluttering after they saw the gaskets.
I call the supplier of the cylinders and he said to take 220 grit and start to cut the top of the cylinder on a flat surface.
I'm in the process of doing that now.
I'm using 100, 220, then 600. All with oil.
They look ok. I'm also cleaning the pushrod covers cause I have witness marks on the tubes were the pushrods are hitting.

So are the sleeves moving then?

If it were me, I'd invest in new good quality cylinders.
Also I would suggest not trying to sand the head gasket surfaces and hope they remain completely flat. You'd have to know the surface you're using is completely flat. And glass isn't always flat.

[kd]

What ever you remove from the top of the cylinder will increase your compression, reduce your quench (squish), lower the valves to the eyebrow of the piston valve relief etc..  you will have to compensate with a thicker base gasket to get back to where you were or use a thicker head gasket. For that reason you will need to know exactly what is removed and mock it up to confirm deck height before and after. Proper machining is in order or a fresh start with a decent set of barrels. Either way you're juggling a new top end build with all of the checks and balances it takes to control the dimensions.

[Don D]

Begs the question if the liner moved? If so there are bigger issues.

[kd]

I agree.  Maybe using a jeweler's loop for a look at the lower end will show if it has moved down.  There may be a clean break in the machining at the inside radius of the spigot and maybe some other abnormal visuals.  The top will probably be contaminated from combustion gasses.  If Cometic called it by looking at the gasket it makes you wonder.  Typically the top of the barrel is machined across both the liner and the casting.

[Hossamania]

I'm also curious that the supplier that honed them didn't see that?

[kd]

I cant see how it's possible.     There must be an oversize - machine to fit C&C target with assembled barrels.  Who knows?   

[Appowner]

Interesting thread. 

Learning a lot. 

Thanks All!

[Don D]

IIRC this build has 4.18" bore. Me personally, I sleeve them at this bore with Ductile Iron to assure there is .090" wall Min. in the cylinder. Bored out 4.125" cylinders will not be stable and live there IME

[N-gin]

I'm also curious that the supplier that honed them didn't see that?

That was my question as well when I called.
Like I said, they told me to take 220 and not worry.

Update:
I received the cylinders back from the supplier that had rehoned them for me. I was putting it together and found the steel sleeve that is fitted to the cylinders are .007 down. This is starting to make sense why Cometic told me the gasket was fluttering after they saw the gaskets.
I call the supplier of the cylinders and he said to take 220 grit and start to cut the top of the cylinder on a flat surface.
I'm in the process of doing that now.
I'm using 100, 220, then 600. All with oil.
They look ok. I'm also cleaning the pushrod covers cause I have witness marks on the tubes were the pushrods are hitting.

So are the sleeves moving then?

If it were me, I'd invest in new good quality cylinders.
Also I would suggest not trying to sand the head gasket surfaces and hope they remain completely flat. You'd have to know the surface you're using is completely flat. And glass isn't always flat.

Yes I agree it's not completely flat. However it's not that big of a span/surface. Also I'm just taking the aluminum down to the sleeve. If it's a little off I doubt it will be as much as .007 like it was.

What ever you remove from the top of the cylinder will increase your compression, reduce your quench (squish), lower the valves to the eyebrow of the piston valve relief etc..  you will have to compensate with a thicker base gasket to get back to where you were or use a thicker head gasket. For that reason you will need to know exactly what is removed and mock it up to confirm deck height before and after. Proper machining is in order or a fresh start with a decent set of barrels. Either way you're juggling a new top end build with all of the checks and balances it takes to control the dimensions.

I get the stack up. I am using a .020 base gasket now. Before I used a .010. so I think I'll be ok. I'm still going to check though. As far as compression goes I'm ok. The difference is minimal and Don opened the chambers slightly.

I think I'll be ok..
If I have a problem again I'm going to do what Don recamended.

[N-gin]

This is long winded. Thank you all for reading if you choose to. I hope this helps someone in the future.

Hello all,
its been a while and for a good reason. It took me this long to cool down and get my head straight about how I want to put an end to this thread. Even now I feel heart palpitations thinking and going through everything that transpired.

I sent the heads back for a third time to the "head specialist" that originally did the heads. I got them back and put all new gaskets. Made sure the torque was correct. I did one individual step day by day.
I will remind you all that I have done many Harley engines. So this is just going through the motions, however making sure it is as good as it can be.
No issues going together at all.
Took it down the road and it filled the catch can with in 50 miles.
I called the "head specialist" he informed me that the heads were known for cracking after being welded (wich BTW were a brand new set of MVA P castings when first sent out to the "porter"). Mind you sending heads to Washington is not cheap from Ga THREE TIMES. So after all this he finally tells me this.
So after my blood pressure blew through my eyes and a moment of silence over the phone, I asked what can be done.

YOU ALL READY FOR WHAT HE SAID...

" You still have the 110 heads that are new right"? "Send those with the MVA heads and Ill do the 110s to flow like the MVAs"
Then...
"It will be another $1700 to do this, and Ill have to keep your MVA heads"

Ill remind you all. The last two times cost me well over 500$ each time to supposedly get corrected.

I told him I would think about it.....
There the bike sat for a while. A looong while.

BTW I started recording our conversations and saving the emails the first time I sent the heads back. I had my suspensions.

To get my mind off of things I buried myself into the dirt circle track at Senoia raceway. There I met a guy who used to drag race Harley-Davidsons. He just so happens to know  B. personally. My new found friend told me to send my heads to Mr. B, and have them inspected. I did so. I got a call back from Mr B. and this is what he said....
There is a big gap between the valve guide and where they welded. Because of this gap the valve guide was installed crooked. In the head ended up cracking around the guide. Also the wrong material valve guide was used with the valve, causing excessive wear. To correct this would take a lot of time and money not worth being put into the heads. I also flow tested them and compared them to what the flow numbers were when I received my heads back from the original "Porter". They were not even close. He also added that these aren't even flowing as well as a stock set of MVA heads with minor Port work. To correct this will be $$$$. Because he actually had to make a specific fixture to correct the problem to redrill for the guide.

I said do it. I want all the old parts and everything documented with pictures. We kept in contact sending text messaging and pictures and 7 months later I got my heads back.

I now have a set of MVA heads with a grand total (including shipping)
7900$ no that number is NOT inflated. I added up the receipts.
So you can see why I have not been around here much.

:To be continued:

I need to calm down again.

[Hossamania]

Wow wow wow. Sorry to hear all of this.
Good luck with everything, glad you found a good guy to set you up.

[N-gin]

BTW
The cost to repair was not as much as the first porter charged to do the heads to begin with. So I guess thats a plus.

[N-gin]

The worst thing about this is. I use to send all the heads that need work to him.
Not anymore.

[Hossamania]

The worst thing about this is. I use to send all the heads that need work to him.
Not anymore.

Definitely not. Let us know how it goes when you can finally talk to him calmly.

[Ohio HD]

Glad that you finally got the issues sorted out. Breathe, and ride her when the weather warms up.