Author Topic: Power Vision Autotune Problems  (Read 597 times)

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Offline NPDubs

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Power Vision Autotune Problems
« on: May 20, 2020, 01:45:41 PM »
2010 Dyna Fat Bob Stage 1 Vance and Hines Short Shots and S&S Teardrop A/C. Used the Power Vision on a previous bike for several years, no problems. Got a PV for this bike and have been unable to populate the cells in Autotune. The PV reads NBF0 and NBR0 which means the narrow band sensors are in open loop. Obviously, you can't Autotune in open loop. Bought the unit from Fuel Moto and have been in contact with them for several weeks to try and resolve the issue. Lucas at Fuel Moto has been really great at trying to get this figured out for me. Sent them multiple maps, tried different base tunes, all to no avail. Let me say again, Lucas at Fuel Moto has been outstanding. He has answered every e-mail, phone call, and done his very best, literally spending hours with me, walking me through everything they could think of to try. Finally he suggested returning the unit to Dynojet, who I had also been in contact with throughout. He said if they didn't give me a new unit, Fuel Moto would refund my money. Sent it back and Dynojet sent a new PV. Hooked it up and same damn issue. So obviously, it's my bike. For the hell of it, I replaced both O2 sensors even though both Fuel Moto and Dynojet said it was not the issue. No Change. NBF0, NBR0. Will not populate cells. Datalog works, but oddly, my gauges drop out periodically and I have to exit...hit "gauges" and they are back on.( Not an RF issue because I shielded the cable front to back with RF shielding.)The tune I got from Fuel Moto is great, the bike is night and day from before I loaded their tune. I can load tunes, tuned out a little spark knock I had when hot, but still no Autotune. I'm asking if anyone has had this problem, seen it talked about in the PV sticky, which I've read much of but still slogging through it. Or if anyone has any ideas at all, I'd really appreciate some feedback.

Offline Coyote

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2020, 04:34:49 PM »
I think the gauges freezing up is a power supply issue. At one time I offered to make a filter cable for the PV but was never taken up on it. If you were to split the PV power wire out and take it to the battery I suspect you would no longer see the issue either.

Lots of map settings can keep the thing out of closed loop. You could post up your map and maybe one of the tuners here will take a look. Although I'm sure the guys at FM have already done that.
I was promised Monsoons.

Offline aharp

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2020, 02:40:59 AM »
Ive had power supply issues in autotune as well but using the autotune module and widebands, and usually on earlier ecm’s. Had one a few weeks ago. 03 bagger wouldnt cooperate. Switched my power source from bike to AC outlet and all was good.
Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?

Offline rbabos

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2020, 08:41:07 AM »
Do you have it set for stock NB sensors?
Ron

Offline NPDubs

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2020, 01:53:09 PM »
Yes, I've got it set for the narrow band sensors. I also tried ferrite chokes on each end of the cable for the gauges dropping out. But, honestly, that is a secondary problem. More of an annoyance. Just can't figure out any reason why I can't populate cells and the Power Vision functions in every other way except being able to Autotune. What's really frustrating is after a fairly extensive internet search, not being able to find anyone with the exact same issue.( That wasn't caused by something that I haven't covered and checked over and over.) I checked the voltages on the O2 sensors with the PV and they seem to be in an appropriate range. So I'm clueless as to why the Autotune screen always says NBF O and NBR O ( Narrow band open front and rear), and will not populate.

Offline rigidthumper

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2020, 05:56:22 AM »
If the actual AFR going past the sensors is beyond the range of the narrowbands, they can't report. IIRC, Anything richer than about 14:1 makes it more likely to see the NBF/NBR O. Can you post your map and some logs, so we can see what you've got?
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Offline NPDubs

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2020, 05:58:14 AM »
My understanding is that when in Autotune, the entire MAP/AFR is set to 14.6 and timing is retarded. So no matter what my AFR is at during normal operation, it's at 14.6 during an Autotune session. And I can tell by the way it runs, this is happening.

Offline rigidthumper

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2020, 06:24:22 AM »
AFR request is 14.6, and Spark Advance tables are retarded by 4° during Autotune basic, but the actual AFR coming out the exhaust is determined by what is happening inside the combustion chamber, which is influenced by the VE tables, engine temp, injector pulse width, injector flow, etc.
If the the O2 sensor is too cool ( from a too rich mixture) the NBs won't read anything.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Offline NPDubs

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2020, 11:57:27 AM »
If the Power Vision AFR is just a requested AFR, would I have to go to a Dyno tuner with an exhaust sniffer to know the actual AFR in the pipe?

Offline rigidthumper

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2020, 12:06:48 PM »
The idea behind a base map, is that it's supposed to be close enough that the NBO2s are able to read, and adjust the VE tables. Sometimes that doesn't happen. You can use a wideband set to spot check AFRs, and see if they are close or not. That can be a PV WB kit, PVTT/WB, WEGO 3D kit from DTT, ECM-AFM 1000, Techno Research,  etc, that you can use yourself, or, any chance you know/have someone close with any wideband equipment to check your system?
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Offline NPDubs

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2020, 12:40:48 PM »
No, I sure don't. I like your idea but I think the odds are low as I have tried the stock MAP, the Dynojet canned MAP as well as the preloaded Fuel Moto Map to try to Autotune and the result was the same. Sent multiple logs to Fuel Moto as well as Dynojet and they were stumped. Fuel Moto offered me a refund or to try a different tuner. Dynojet replaced my tuner. No luck. But, the bike actually runs great on the FM preloaded tune, and I'm able to data log and run the gauges. I can tune out spark knock, ect. So I don't really see much point in trying another tuner. But this is still driving me crazy trying to figure out.

Offline Coyote

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2020, 12:49:44 PM »
You sure you have the sensors correct (Front vs Back)?

Back is Black.. 
I was promised Monsoons.

Offline NPDubs

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2020, 01:53:54 PM »
Yes, checked 3-4 times LOA!!! On a Fat Bob the way it is wired, you can't hook up the fwd o2 sensor to the rear wiring because ti won't reach. The front o2 sensor plugs into the wiring that is very close to the sensor wiring.

Offline Jamie Long

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2020, 02:18:36 PM »
I know we had quite a bit of communication back and forth however one more option would be to send me a 20+ minute log (or a couple of them) of mixed riding along with your tune and I can run the same routine/script as Auto Tune and generate the tune corrections manually for you. For channels you can use the defaults or select "narrowband logging". It will take a little effort but it should work well. My email is jamie@fuelmotousa.com 

Offline NPDubs

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2020, 02:42:10 PM »
Thanks a lot Jamie, pouring rain down here but tomorrow I'll run the logs and send them. Thank you very much!!

Offline rigidthumper

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2020, 07:30:06 AM »
Once this is sorted out, will whoever discovers/corrects the issue share the fix, please,  so other PV users  can benefit from the lesson?
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Offline NPDubs

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2020, 11:22:55 AM »
Yes. Sure Will.

Offline jjdalynh

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2020, 08:55:58 PM »
so if (as someone has mentioned) if it's too rich to register with the narrow bands,perhaps just try reducing your VE tables by 5% and see if you can get it to start registering. 

if, as you say everything else is working on the PV then you should be able to see via CLI what the ECM is trying to do...  if it's always less than 100, the ecm is trying to take away fuel because your map is too rich, right?   conversely,more than 100 all the time would be too lean. may need to clear the fuel trims learned to see whether it's dead one way or the other.  CLI when working with a proper tune should oscillate across 100 as the ECM is making short term fuel trims.

Offline NPDubs

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Re: Power Vision Autotune Problems
« Reply #18 on: Yesterday at 04:44:16 PM »
So. Fuel Moto and Dynojet think it's a problem with my ECM. My options were to get a new ECM and get it preprogramed by the dealer, Thundermax and get 18mm o2 bungs, or have Jamie at Fuel Moto do an open loop tune. Since I have no plans beyond stage 1 with this bike, I went with the open loop tune. Jamie mailed it to me and it runs great. Just went for a long ride and the bike felt super. No spark knock, no decel pop, responsive and cool running. I can still use my Power Vision for gauges, Data Logs,and tweaking the tune.(But I don't really see needing to do that). I really want to thank Fuel Moto(Jamie and Lucas) for the incredible amount of time and effort they have put into this trying to figure it out. And I've got to say, anything you need for your bike that is available from Fuel Moto, buy it. They are the customer service Kings!!