Spitting out dipstick after engine work question

[chipthedonkey]

I'm about ready to stop doing the friends and family bike work around here.  At least on stuff newer than Evos.  I build engines for ag and industrial pumps every day and have for 20 years but these little 2 cam motors often do stuff I don't expect and have to ask about. 

So this is my brother in laws Road King.  I thought it was a 2002 but turns out it's a 2000.  Completly new top end and cam chest.  He bought S&S 625 cams and had the cyulinder work and head work all done at the same shop.  It looked like really nice machine work.  Supposed to be about 10.25:1 as it goes together and now 98"

The little motor runs great.  Sounds great too.  Really smooth and you'd think there weren't a problem until you do a heavy medium to hard acceleration. Then it pushes out the dipstick tube.  In less than 50 miles the motor has done it 3 times now. 

When I asked about compression releases awhile back someone suggested putting them on a switch.  That was a good idea.  The bike really don't seem to need the compression releases so far.

So Ive got to do something with this dipstick before I give the bike back to my brother in law.  Did all the homework online I could find but still hoping for advice from people more familare on these motors.

I saw a dipstick and housing from a company called Baker that was a screw in dipstick.  That couldn't blow out.  But then I'm worried about the extra pressure it'll be holding that's making the dipstick blow out now.  What's the next weak point to give out if the dipstick can't blow out? Do I want to just capture it like this Baker thing would do or does it need some bigger vent?  If a vent is the answer what's the best way to add a crankcase vent to relieve the pressure?  Or is it both?  A dipstick that can't blow out and more vent.

During the assembly all the rings were spaced like they should be.  It's not too full of oil.  It's at about a half quart low.  This bike would always lose its first half quart if you had it full before.  Anyone that's got any ideas about why this thing is pushing out its dipstick so easy and what I can do to make it better thank you.

[04 SE Deuce]

Check the head breathers...you should be able to suck but not blow on the vent hoses coming off the heads.

[kd]

Also do a search on here for dipstick problem, popping out, etc and you'll probably find a few threads.  There's been several along with the fixes.

[chipthedonkey]

Check the head breathers...you should be able to suck but not blow on the vent hoses coming off the heads.

Will check that.  It doesn't have hoses.  Has something called a Ness Sucker air cleaner that bolts straight to the heads.  But I can rig something up to check as you suggest.  The breather parts up inside the heads were brand new factory part.  The ones that came out had a name on them Doherty Myst or something like that.  They were better looking parts than the new factory parts but I still put the new parts in just because they were new.

If one or the other doesn't behave like you described what does that tell me?  What would I be chasing after that?

[nomadmax]

Rocker box gaskets installed improperly can block the vent and create excess pressure.

[prodrag1320]

Rocker box gaskets installed improperly can block the vent and create excess pressure.

bingo,rocker box gaskets on backwards

[Skin]

2000 was the only year you had to block an oil hole in the cam plate, a kit from HD is a screw and washer also did you do anything with the oil pressure spring and plunger in the cam plate. You'll need a guage from Fueling to check pressure, if it's to high that could be a problem. I'm just throwing ideas out there.

[smoserx1]

Early 99 was the only year you had to block that oil feed from the cam plate and that was only if you were replacing the original cam plate with a later version

[Skin]

Sorry, you are absolutely right. I should have finished my coffee first before opening my mouth.

[smoserx1]

Dipstick popping was common with the early twin cams.  This thread may offer some solutions:

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,111181.msg1327848.html#msg1327848

[chipthedonkey]

Rocker box gaskets installed improperly can block the vent and create excess pressure.

Obviously I don't think I did that.  But I know I ain't made all the mistakes I'm allowed for this month.  At least it's not a tough thing to check out.  Since I didnt even realize they could go on backwards I obviously could have did them wrong.  Is this be something that will be obvious when I'm looking?

[Coyote]

 [attach=0]

[FLDavetrain]

Rocker box gaskets installed improperly can block the vent and create excess pressure.

Obviously I don't think I did that.   Since I didnt even realize they could go on backwards

If you weren't aware there's an orientation then the odds are extremely high they're on wrong

[motorhogman]

Rocker box gaskets installed improperly can block the vent and create excess pressure.

Obviously I don't think I did that.   Since I didnt even realize they could go on backwards

If you weren't aware there's an orientation then the odds are extremely high they're on wrong

I did mine a while ago.  Thought they were marked.. for proper orientation.. Maybe i imagined that..

[chipthedonkey]

[attach=0,msg1348383]

I remember seeing the channel.  From there it seemed obvious which way the gaskets went.  So I'm like 99% sure they're right.  It'll get double checked this weekend though. 

[tdrglide]

I remember putting that gasket on incorrectly once before but indication of that mistake was oil leak under the lower rocker cover.

Did you check to see if breathers were properly assembled before install. They are not properly assembled straight out of the box.

[chipthedonkey]

I remember putting that gasket on incorrectly once before but indication of that mistake was oil leak under the lower rocker cover.

Did you check to see if breathers were properly assembled before install. They are not properly assembled straight out of the box.

Again I think so.  The "think" part is only something else to check right now though.  Fortunately its all one job to check it out.  It will all be apart to look at any of it.

I remember thinking when looking at the gaskets that if the channel was left open it would have to leak.  So I really don't think they're on backwards.  But it'll all get checked.  Biggest hassle is really taht the tank is now full of gas.

[MikeL]

Incorrect installation of the rockerbox gasket will leak been there done that. I have a 2000 RKC. It does not like more than 3.5 qts of oil in the sump. It blows the dip stick out on a hard pull with more than 3.5 qts. It did it as an 88 and now as a 124. I have the head breathers going to the ground via 5/16 tubing. I have the H/D digital oil temp dip stick it is better than the original dip stick but still pops out.
When I finally get settled in my shop down here in FL I'm going to increase the diameter of the dip stick neck using bicycle inner tube and use a hose clamp to keep the dip stick in.

                                                                                                                                                                    MIKE

[Jim Bronson]

If all else fails, you can add a dipstick vent cap. You will need to replace the dipstick with the cap. If you take a trip, just throw the dipstick in the bag. Just an idea.

a1cycles.net

[roadkingdresser]

a friends bike was doing the same thing. changed the oil pu,mp and fixed it.

[rigidthumper]

If the lower rocker box gaskets are upside down, there won't be enough crankcase pressure to pop the dipstick- all that pressure will be venting on top of the head
If, however, the crankcase breather assy is mis-assembled, or the outlet/hoses plugged, there will be enough pressure to pop a dipstick.

[chipthedonkey]

a friends bike was doing the same thing. changed the oil pu,mp and fixed it.

Of course anything is possible but it's a brand new oil pump.  As part of everything new in the cam chest he got a new cam plate and oil pump.  All Harley parts.  It's a kit to get rid of the spring loaded chain tensioners and make they hydraulic instead.  When it went to gether did the loose bolts and alighment bolts and turn the engine over then snug everything up thing to make sure it was aligned as well.  So when anything is possible I doubtful and hoping it's not something with a bad new oil pump.

[chipthedonkey]

If the lower rocker box gaskets are upside down, there won't be enough crankcase pressure to pop the dipstick- all that pressure will be venting on top of the head
If, however, the crankcase breather assy is mis-assembled, or the outlet/hoses plugged, there will be enough pressure to pop a dipstick.

The more I've thought about how all the pieces go together that' s the understadnign I was figuring out in my head too.  If the gaskets are wrong I think I'd have a leak like some other folks have mentioned.  I'm guessing and hoping right now that I messed up the breathers somehow instead of the bottom gasket.  It 'll get looked at again this evening or tomorrow.  If it fails that suck and blow test at the head breather holes that some one mentioned does that mean breathers put together wrong or something plugged up?

Of all the potential problems that's the easiest.  Not a big deal.  I might even put the Doherty Myst Free parts back in that were in it to begin with.  Those looked nice and a lot more obvious than the Harley Davidson part.

[Jim Bronson]

All this makes me wonder how much pressure there is in a case during downstroke pulses. If it is enough to pop out the dipstick, what other problems can it cause (like leaky base gaskets)?

[chipthedonkey]

All this makes me wonder how much pressure there is in a case during downstroke pulses. If it is enough to pop out the dipstick, what other problems can it cause (like leaky base gaskets)?

That was my worry too.  When I saw that Baker screw in dipstick.  Easy way to make it where your dipstick don't blow out no more.  But at what problems elsewhere.  There's always some next weak point to worry about.  That's why I was really wanting to trying and find and fix something instead of just throwing a part on it like a bandaid.

[kd]

Have you done a compression and leak-down test?  If not, it would make sense to do so as it's less work and a need to know thing.  If it has good compression (or not) and / but fails a leak-down test that can be attributed to the crankcase pressure it may answer some of the question.  If both are OK then the search hasn't ended. Do the suck and blow test on the breathers.  All 3 things are easy tests. If in doubt, pop the rocker covers and physically check the breather assemblies. It's also seems to be a common problem when they have just been changed. They do not come properly assembled and have to be corrected. 

[smoserx1]

I did mine a while ago.  Thought they were marked.. for proper orientation.. Maybe i imagined that..

No you did not imagine that.  They are marked (at least the newer OEM ones are).  Each gasket will say front on one side and rear on the other side.  I remember this from doing my 95 inch top end job in 2016.  I also remember the dipstick popping issue being discussed a bunch on the forums I frequented right after I got my bike in 1999.  It never happened to me but my dipstick has always fit very tightly in the fill spout.  I have always wondered if there were some tolerance issues on how tightly the rubber part of the sticks fit.  Now lots of folks seem to be going to vented dipsticks or filler spouts.  That seems to be one sure way to relieve the pressure.

To the OP, it may just be you didn't do anything wrong and there is just more pressure now from the larger pistons and new rings sealing better.  Do try the suck/blow test on the breather bolts...if this test passes you did not assemble the breathers wrong.  If the gaskets are installed wrong (upside down) exposing the breather channel(s) I believe the effect is going to be flooding of the breather channel with oil and lots of oil carryover to the air cleaner or external vent/catch can if so fitted.

[chipthedonkey]

Learned more when I had a little time late tonight.  Made progress and it's really ok that I got it wrong because it won't be a bad thing to fix.

First off for those that were asking about the gaskets.  I picked a pair of uppoer and lower rocker box gaskets this afternoon so I'd have parts in hand over the holiday.  The bottom ones are marked for which way they go.  Not marked real heavy but definitely marked.  Held them up against the old heads that came off this bike last week and its just like I remembeed when it got put together.  That channel is pretty obvious.  Someone could defiitely miss it but I saw that open channel when I was flipping the gaskets over and over just to see which way things lined up.  Plus if they are on backward it will have to make a mess.  This bike is bone dry.  Ain't got nothing leaking up on top and the air cleaner is real dry.  As sure as I can be that the bottom rocker gaskets aren't where I made a mistake. 

Did mess up the breathers.  Took an old breather bolt and drilled a center hole all the way through in the drill press.  That made it easy to test.  In the back head it's completely completely open.  You can suck and blow and you can hear it inside.  The front head is different.  Still wrong but its different.  If I blow in the front hole it's open and it comes out the breather hole in the back head.  If you suck on it it closes up solid.

If I read it rite earler that front head is backwards?  Should be able to suck but not be able to blow?  They're both messed up though.  I spent five minutes looking at those things when they came of of their packages.  Guess I should have looked at them five more minutes. 

Plan right now is to take the top rocker covers off and change the breathers again.  Then'll do a suck and blow test again and see if it behaves good.  If it does not going to change the bottom gaskets. 

Oh yeah, had already done compression and leakdown tests.  They were real even and good.  I'm really hoping now all the bikes problem is just a loose nut behind the wrench.

[FSG]

some of the drawings for those new breathers are wrong, some are partially assembled in the packing wrong

so it's a lottery getting them in the right way unless you're aware of it from the start

[tdrglide]

Make sure you push/pull the "tit" of the umbrella through the top of the perforated metal piece. It kind of pops in place.

[Appowner]

My 08 FXSTC popped the dipstick for a while.  On start up it would launch the thing 5-6 feet out from the bike.

Mine turned out to be a crummy after market oil temp dip stick.  Don't recall the brand.  The rubber stopper was a shade too small.  Metric size.  The stick would fairly easily go in and out.  Finally found one that fit right and tighter and have had no issues since.

Kind of miss having to catch that thing on start up though.

[aharp]

I apologize if i missed it, but did this bike blow the dipstick before the engine work?

[MikeL]

I checked in Ronnies micro fiche. The new part number is superseded to a 2002 part number 62453-02. This is the screw in dipstick? If it is then in my case the problem will be solved.

                                                                                                                                                                 MIKE 

[chipthedonkey]

some of the drawings for those new breathers are wrong, some are partially assembled in the packing wrong

so it's a lottery getting them in the right way unless you're aware of it from the start

It's definitely a lottery I didn't win.  Thanks very much for the pictures.  That is different than what was shown on the sheet I had when I put it together the first time.  When everything got cleaned up when I finished the first time I didn't keep that sheet.  Now I'd like ot look at it to see what name was on it.  Doesn't really matter though.  The tank is off and the breathers will get sorted out this afternoon or tonight.

[chipthedonkey]

I apologize if i missed it, but did this bike blow the dipstick before the engine work?

The spitting dipstick was new with the work.  Never did it before.

[chipthedonkey]

Think I'm good now with the breathers.  Want to thnak everyone for their help.  It really got me pointed in the right way.  Just in case anyone deals with this later here's what I found. 

Those pictures up above here sure helped and I appreciate who ever took the time to get them a lot.  Just like it shows in the picture didn't work right though.  Could still suck and blow.  So this didnt work.  At least for me.  But it was close enough to make me really look at everything and figure out how it workd.

[chipthedonkey]

This is what worked.  To seal the umbrella and rest of it would need to go this way.  After looking at it and figuring out the plumbing tried it like this and immediately had good suck and no blow.  So hopefully at least this problem is good now.  Thanks again everyone.

[Ohio HD]

FYI, if that motor had the old style aluminum breathers, and you use the new style, you need shorter bolts.


New style
[attach=0]


Old style
[attach=1]

[chipthedonkey]

FYI, if that motor had the old style aluminum breathers, and you use the new style, you need shorter bolts.

It had an aftermarket breather in it stamped "Doherty."  The new Harley breather kits came with bolts.  It is really nice now to know that I can suck and blow like I am supposed to.

[04 SE Deuce]

  reply #1.

[chipthedonkey]

I thinks it's licked.  Was blown and sucked and now its licked.  That means the bike had a better day then me.

Rode it 80 miles tonight.  All RPMs and light load to full load pulls just finishing breaking the engine in.  It still had the same dipstick in it when I got back that it did when I started.  That means I'm happy.

I still think I will put that Baker dipstick screw in thing on it.  Just knowing it can blow out its dipstick makes me worry for my brother in law.  He not only never checks oil he don't even look down.  He could ride from one oil change to the next and never miss it.  As long as the oil mess staid behind him he might not even care about that.  So a dipstick that can't come out may be a good idea since I'm not worried about doing other harm now.  If I tell him it's a performance upgrade he'll never even t hink twice.

[CVOThunder]

Haha, you sound like George Carlin and the anti-porn police. "It'll be hard on us but we can't lick it by being soft"!

Glad you figured it out...so I don't have to later on. Another great thread by all.