twincam lifter preload

[838]

I did an Andrews 48 with stock pushrods in a 2009 FLHX 96".  It was quiet. Lifters were WFO Larry slow leak down type.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

One thing I have found time and time again is the wrong weight oil being run for the ambient air temp. I have seen (heard) it myself in back to back testing that I did. Makes a world of difference in engine noise.

What he said. ^^^^^

[wildchild]

We have proven time and again, day in, day out here, at our full-time shop, that the .140", to .150" dimension works.
And is markedly quieter at full engine operating temps as well.

Would this be the same for a CVO SG 110ci, Stock Engine with SE Adjustable Pushrods and S&S Premium lifters?

My engine is very quiet at idle and cruising speed but have the well know rocker shaft clatter at 2600-2800 rpm.
I currently have the lifters set as per OEM specs 2-1/2 turns plus an additional spanner flat. (Approx 0.110")

[Hillside Motorcycle]

We have proven time and again, day in, day out here, at our full-time shop, that the .140", to .150" dimension works.
And is markedly quieter at full engine operating temps as well.

Would this be the same for a CVO SG 110ci, Stock Engine with SE Adjustable Pushrods and S&S Premium lifters?

My engine is very quiet at idle and cruising speed but have the well know rocker shaft clatter at 2600-2800 rpm.
I currently have the lifters set as per OEM specs 2-1/2 turns plus an additional spanner flat. (Approx 0.110")

Should help, but the triple-wound Comp Cam valve spring pressure is more than likely the culprit on that CVO.

[Muddogg]

To preload a lifter to .140 how many flats down would you go on a S&S quickie push rod?

[Don D]

Would this be the same for a CVO SG 110ci, Stock Engine with SE Adjustable Pushrods and S&S Premium lifters?

My engine is very quiet at idle and cruising speed but have the well know rocker shaft clatter at 2600-2800 rpm.
I currently have the lifters set as per OEM specs 2-1/2 turns plus an additional spanner flat. (Approx 0.110")

A cam change to a grind with slower ramps eliminates that noise, its the fast ramps of the SE255 that are the culprit. The spring pressure is not excessive, a myth. Actually the .650 lift beehives most use as a "fix" have more seat pressure than the dual springs on the CVO. I use a 1.375" lighter weight dual spring as a replacement. Similar pressure but no flat wire damper.

Now preload doesn't and never mattered because it is not the root cause of the issue. If heads have been severely milled {pushrods hitting in tubes}, geometry {protrusion}is messed up, high ratio rockers are in play {pushrods jumping out of the rocker socket}, non-concentric valve seats, or shafts are slapping the bolts well those are separate issues that can create noise issues.

[wildchild]

Would this be the same for a CVO SG 110ci, Stock Engine with SE Adjustable Pushrods and S&S Premium lifters?

My engine is very quiet at idle and cruising speed but have the well know rocker shaft clatter at 2600-2800 rpm.
I currently have the lifters set as per OEM specs 2-1/2 turns plus an additional spanner flat. (Approx 0.110")

A cam change to a grind with slower ramps eliminates that noise, its the fast ramps of the SE255 that are the culprit. The spring pressure is not excessive, a myth. Actually the .650 lift beehives most use as a "fix" have more seat pressure than the dual springs on the CVO. I use a 1.375" lighter weight dual spring as a replacement. Similar pressure but no flat wire damper.

Now preload doesn't and never mattered because it is not the root cause of the issue. If heads have been severely milled {pushrods hitting in tubes}, geometry {protrusion}is messed up, high ratio rockers are in play {pushrods jumping out of the rocker socket}, non-concentric valve seats, or shafts are slapping the bolts well those are separate issues that can create noise issues.

Thanks for the info, here's the outcome plus I have a question in relation to plunger depth.
Set lifters at 3 turns + 1 Flat (.133") doesn't seem to be much different with valve train noise.

Setting the plunger deeper into the lifter how does this benefit the lifter and does it effect the pump up now that travel has been reduced?

[Don D]

You're hearing valve train dynamics in that speed range.  The lifter is not a jack. It just takes up space. It does so equally well unless it is bottomed out or run up too high in the ~.200 travel. I have quieted down many CVO 110s including my own. It takes a cam change, lifters, valve springs (i do not use beehives), and possibly rocker lockers. Will be quiet even with stock pushrods. One last thing that can present and sound like valve train noise, piston slap. The distinct difference, piston slap is worse cold, valve train noise is worse hot.

[Burnout]

One thing I have found time and time again is the wrong weight oil being run for the ambient air temp. I have seen (heard) it myself in back to back testing that I did. Makes a world of difference in engine noise.

No body reads the front of the manual.
It says to use 60w oil in temps over 80°f. Yes even on a twincam.

20-50W oil seems to be the soup du jure, but many don't bother with an oil cooler.

I used to maintain 2 rental fleets of twincam bikes we equipped them all with oil coolers and used Silkolene 20-50W
Not a single motor experienced chain tensioner or cam bearing failures. <when that was all the rage...
This was 50+ (100) different bikes (rentals that got run hard).

[aharp]

One thing I have found time and time again is the wrong weight oil being run for the ambient air temp. I have seen (heard) it myself in back to back testing that I did. Makes a world of difference in engine noise.

No body reads the front of the manual.
It says to use 60w oil in temps over 80°f. Yes even on a twincam.

20-50W oil seems to be the soup du jure, but many don't bother with an oil cooler.

I used to maintain 2 rental fleets of twincam bikes we equipped them all with oil coolers and used Silkolene 20-50W
Not a single motor experienced chain tensioner or cam bearing failures. <when that was all the rage...
This was 50+ (100) different bikes (rentals that got run hard).

Yep. Amsoil 60wt full synthetic is my 100% go to. At room temp it's thinner than HD 2050 and WAY quieter than 2050 on a hot day. I run it year round.

[wildchild]

You're hearing valve train dynamics in that speed range.  The lifter is not a jack. It just takes up space. It does so equally well unless it is bottomed out or run up too high in the ~.200 travel. I have quieted down many CVO 110s including my own. It takes a cam change, lifters, valve springs (i do not use beehives), and possibly rocker lockers. Will be quiet even with stock pushrods. One last thing that can present and sound like valve train noise, piston slap. The distinct difference, piston slap is worse cold, valve train noise is worse hot.

Does plunger depth effect oil flow to the push rods?

[kd]

No

[wildchild]

No

Reason I asked here is with the wealth of knowledge and experiences encountered over the years with lifter issues is that S&S Tech support commented on the same question (Very Little).
I did't think it would make any difference but S&S tech support suggests it makes a little difference in oil flow to push rods.

[FSG]

No

in 99.9% of the cases 'NO' is correct BUT depending on the lifter (they're not all the same) the oil flow could be blocked off if set too deep OR if someone decided to set them off the bottom to reduce travel

[Ohio HD]

No

in 99.9% of the cases 'NO' is correct BUT depending on the lifter (they're not all the same) the oil flow could be blocked off if set too deep OR if someone decided to set them off the bottom to reduce travel

Which is why...   'drum roll'    limiters are about 0.110" thick.   

[wildchild]

No

in 99.9% of the cases 'NO' is correct BUT depending on the lifter (they're not all the same) the oil flow could be blocked off if set too deep OR if someone decided to set them off the bottom to reduce travel

Which is why...   'drum roll'    limiters are about 0.110" thick.

Is this the same for S&S limiters?

[Ohio HD]

No

in 99.9% of the cases 'NO' is correct BUT depending on the lifter (they're not all the same) the oil flow could be blocked off if set too deep OR if someone decided to set them off the bottom to reduce travel

Which is why...   'drum roll'    limiters are about 0.110" thick.

Is this the same for S&S limiters?

Yes, here's some samples that FSG measured a while back. They vary slightly.


[attach=0]

[wildchild]

Perfect, thanks.
For 24 tpi pushrods using S&S Premium lifters w/o limiters S&S suggest to set lifters at 3 turns and OEM spec is 2 1/2 turns.

What are your thoughts on where to set lifters (OEM or S&S specs) ?

[Ohio HD]

If you have limiters, neither.

If not using limiters, either will be fine. 1/2 turn is 0.042". I'd just set them at 2-1/2 turns, 15 flats. I've never seen adding more turns benefit anything. As long as you're accurate with the zero lash, then you're good. 

[kd]

Setting them a little deeper can be helpful with hot starts if you get bleed down. It is particularly more noticeable with some cams and higher compression ratios in hot climates.

[Ohio HD]

If you have bleed off, you "probably" have startup ticking until it builds back up. Need better lifters and or limiters.

In my opinion if you use adjustable push rods, go with limiters as well.

[Don D]

Spring pressure matters. With 200+ lbs of seat pressure  on some of the big builds the lifters will bleed down overnight. The slow bleed variety with the high viscosity oils cold will cause the ticking to last longer. Doesn't bother me. It's a tall task for any hydraulic roller to operate in this environment.

[Ohio HD]

That's why S&S started selling limiters. If you adjust the lifter 0.010" above the bottom, there's next to no bleed off. I run them in anything with adjustable push rods.

The tapping isn't a a concern to me where I mentioned above, rather a symptom.

[Don D]

Does S&S sell limiters for their new lifters?

[Ohio HD]

I don't know, I've been using Larry's lifters.

Call your S&S rep, I'm sure he can tell you. If they didn't change inside dimensions, then yes they will fit.