Can I get away with stock pushrods on this mild set up?

[Adam76]

Hey guys,
Just reading a lot of folks re-using  their oem pushrods when doing a mild can change, pistons and compression bump. Some say adjustable much better... Obviously depends on if you're milling the heads.

For the everyday street bike can I safely get away with re-using my low mileage HD pushrods with the build below?  (I will be coming through the to end anyway so no need to cut the pushrods).

EV27
Cylinders bored and honed to fit a set of 9.5 forged pistons
Base of cylinders trued and heads just minimally faced and just cleaned up.
.030 HG

I wouldn't mind saving the $$ of the adjustable if I don't really need then and then I also dont have the adjustment of each one to worry about.

Any thoughts appreciated.  👍

[xlfan]

If base circle is the same on stock cam and the EV27, you're good to go.

Close enough comparison with a standard vernier caliper.

[Racepres]

The answer is Yes... Using the various Andrews cams that are Spec.ed that way.. and I consider Stockers Preferable.. No Weak point, like at the threaded portion.

[Deye76]

OE pushrods OK with EV27, don't forget to install new lifters.

[Racepres]

OE pushrods OK with EV27, don't forget to install new lifters.

Depending on Mileage.. O.E. lifters are about as good as Any... better than most... Learn to check them yerself..

[xlfan]

OE pushrods OK with EV27, don't forget to install new lifters.

Depending on Mileage.. O.E. lifters are about as good as Any... better than most... Learn to check them yerself..

Is it possible at all, to check the lifter roller before it has obviously failed?

[Racepres]

OE pushrods OK with EV27, don't forget to install new lifters.

Depending on Mileage.. O.E. lifters are about as good as Any... better than most... Learn to check them yerself..

Is it possible at all, to check the lifter roller before it has obviously failed?

Takes a bit of Experience, and a Clean degreased Lifter.. feel enough of them... it becomes obvious..
Someone who can speak more eloquently than I ... may be able to Actually explain it... I will say... if the Wheel will contact the lifter body at all or even close... the rollers/axle are Bad... Some New ones I will Not install..
Bleed down??? I have only really known certainly the Bleed down is too short.. or too much, when they run Noisy...especially when hot..

[xlfan]

Easy to understand your explanation, thanks.

What I mean, was that you won't feel anything wrong before the hardened surfaces of rollers and races gives in, and then it escalates very quickly.

[Deye76]

"feel enough of them... it becomes obvious.."
Until 3 days after you felt (LMAO) them,  one did several hundred dollars damage,  plus down time. For a $120.00 for quality lifters from WFOLarry, don't step over a dime to pick up a penny, Adam. Replace 'em.

[Hossamania]

With the slight machining being done to the heads and cylinder bases, is there any concern Adam should have using the stock rods?

[xlfan]

The stock pushrods are based on a preload of about .100", according to Hillside, he has used a preload of .140"-.150" for years, so that should not be an issue.

[Hossamania]

Good to know, thanks.

[Adam76]

OE pushrods OK with EV27, don't forget to install new lifters.

Thanks,  yes have a set of Johnson  lifters ready to go.   

[Adam76]

The stock pushrods are based on a preload of about .100", according to Hillside, he has used a preload of .140"-.150" for years, so that should not be an issue.

Thanks  for bringing that up Hoss, and thanks for the answer to that xlfan....... Was a good question and good to know it should be ok.
I'm only getting the bases of the cylinders trued while they they are getting bored for the new pistons, and maybe get the heads faced just to make sure i have a perfectly flat surface. Hopefully not too much will need to be taken off.
Cheers

[Adam76]

The stock pushrods are based on a preload of about .100", according to Hillside, he has used a preload of .140"-.150" for years, so that should not be an issue.

Obviously you can't set preload with stock pushrods,  so how do you know what preload you and up with? How do you measure it?

[xlfan]

You can assemble the top end without pushrod tubes and measure the piston travel of the lifter with lifter at the bottom of cam lobe (valve closed).

[jsachs1]

I ALWAYS use adjustable push rods with any, including even a minimal amount of mods.
John

[Adam76]

I ALWAYS use adjustable push rods with any, including even a minimal amount of mods.
John

Thanks John, appreciate your input.
Could you please explain why so I can learn?
Thanks 

[FSG]

The stock pushrods are based on a preload of about .100", according to Hillside, he has used a preload of .140"-.150" for years, so that should not be an issue.

Obviously you can't set preload with stock pushrods,  so how do you know what preload you and up with? How do you measure it?

Homemade Tool section   ............... 

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,61486.0.html

[FSG]

if all you're doing is a cleanup and a 30 thou HG then you've no problems with stock PRs

heck back in the day we'd cut 50 off the heads and chuck in an EV27 and off we'd go

[FSG]

the 200 thou of a lifter is NOMINAL as is the 100 thou STOCK preload, it close but don't bet the farm on it

there are variances in everything, head thickness, gaskets, cylinder length, etc, etc and not to forget expansion (growth) due to heat

HD did the math based on theoretical dimensions and came up with the theoretical PR length that would put the Lifter at the 100 preload point

the lifter then had travel either way to take up any variances

so are the lifters actually in the middle of travel ............  NOT a CHANCE in HELL and no 2 lifters in an engine are going to be loaded the same but they're close and that's all that's required

I agree with John, adjustables and SB are my go to   

[Adam76]

the 200 thou of a lifter is NOMINAL as is the 100 thou STOCK preload, it close but don't bet the farm on it

there are variances in everything, head thickness, gaskets, cylinder length, etc, etc and not to forget expansion (growth) due to heat

HD did the math based on theoretical dimensions and came up with the theoretical PR length that would put the Lifter at the 100 preload point

the lifter then had travel either way to take up any variances

so are the lifters actually in the middle of travel ............  NOT a CHANCE in HELL and no 2 lifters in an engine are going to be loaded the same but they're close and that's all that's required

I agree with John, adjustables and SB are my go to   

Thanks FSG.  That's a great exclamation for me to picture in my mind.   Sorry,  but what are "SB's?" 

[FSG]

Smith Brothers    https://www.pushrods.net/harley-pushrods

[Hossamania]

The main reason given for not using adjustables is expense. The rest of the work being done isn't cheap, nor is it over the top expensive. Is saving $200 worth wondering if they are "close enough"? Because if they aren't, it gets way more expensive.
As far as a weak point in adjustable pushrods, I have SE rods in mine, they have at least 90,000 trouble free miles, never been touched, and have the absolute hell beat out of them, over revved, clutch drop launches, you name it, this motor has had it happen. Do some fail? Sure. But certainly not enough to be a concern.

Typed after the last two responses.

[PoorUB]

I have run adjustable, PITA as far as I am concerned. I order Smith Brothers, made to length, and measure the length with FSG's tools in the link he posted.

Smith Bros. will send out orders the same day and you will get hem in 2-3 days unless you are overseas.

I had to laugh last time I put in Smith Bros. I measured them, ordered a set, then realized they were stock lengths that I came up with.

[Adam76]

The main reason given for not using adjustables is expense. The rest of the work being done isn't cheap, nor is it over the top expensive. Is saving $200 worth wondering if they are "close enough"? Because if they aren't, it gets way more expensive.

Thanks Hoss,  that was exactly my original question. Money / ease / reliability of both methods.

Thanks everyone. I have found a guy with a set of new in the packet S&S adjustable that I can get for a good price.  Might just do it to take any guess work out.
Cheers

[Adam76]

I have run adjustable, PITA as far as I am concerned. I order Smith Brothers, made to length, and measure the length with FSG's tools in the link he posted.

Smith Bros. will send out orders the same day and you will get hem in 2-3 days unless you are overseas.

I had to laugh last time I put in Smith Bros. I measured them, ordered a set, then realized they were stock lengths that I came up with.

Haha... yeah that's a "Doh" moment. 

[Adam76]

I have run adjustable, PITA as far as I am concerned. I order Smith Brothers, made to length, and measure the length with FSG's tools in the link he posted.

Smith Bros. will send out orders the same day and you will get hem in 2-3 days unless you are overseas.

I had to laugh last time I put in Smith Bros. I measured them, ordered a set, then realized they were stock lengths that I came up with.

Yes, perfect fit would be nice. 

Haha... ordering stock length, yeah that's a "Doh" moment.

[jsachs1]

I ALWAYS use adjustable push rods with any, including even a minimal amount of mods.
John

Thanks John, appreciate your input.
Could you please explain why so I can learn?
Thanks 

When you're in the business of mods, I can't chance having a problem by trying to save a few bucks. With adjustable P/rods I know where I'm at, and don't have to worry about coulda', woulda', shouda'.
John

[JW113]

I use them for one reason: I hate pulling the tanks and rocker boxes to get to the cam & tappets!

-JW

[Adam76]

I use them for one reason: I hate pulling the tanks and rocker boxes to get to the cam & tappets!

-JW

Yes totally agree..... That's what they're mate for.  But in my case I don't plan on going back into the cam chest for a long time hopefully 😁

[Adam76]

I ALWAYS use adjustable push rods with any, including even a minimal amount of mods.
John

Thanks John, appreciate your input.
Could you please explain why so I can learn?
Thanks 

When you're in the business of mods, I can't chance having a problem by trying to save a few bucks. With adjustable P/rods I know where I'm at, and don't have to worry about coulda', woulda', shouda'.
John

Yes, fair point,
Thanks

[WML57]

Adam, S&S makes adjustable pushrods in quick install style (no need to remove rocker boxes to install or remove) and standard adjustables that do require removing the rocker boxes.

[Adam76]

Adam, S&S makes adjustable pushrods in quick install style (no need to remove rocker boxes to install or remove) and standard adjustables that do require removing the rocker boxes.

Yes, thanks. I have the top end off for new pistons anyway so it doesn't matter. Cheers.

[JW113]

But in my case I don't plan on going back into the cam chest for a long time hopefully 😁

   

Nope. None of us do.



-JW

[Adam76]

But in my case I don't plan on going back into the cam chest for a long time hopefully 😁

   

Nope. None of do.



-JW

Too true 😆   but I'm sure I'll have run out of money by then.  I'm kind of like - do it once, do it right.

[JW113]

Been there, done that, take my word or not that "if/when" you need to go back in, you'll be saying "why oh why did I not put this thing together with adjustables when I had it apart last time"....


-JW

[JW113]

OH, and let me add... 

By Adjustables, I mean the "Quick Install" or "E-Z Install" type. The plain old adjustables do not shrink far enough to get them in without popping the rocker boxes, so you'd be no better off than with stock pushrods.

-JW

[Hossamania]

OH, and let me add... 

By Adjustables, I mean the "Quick Install" or "E-Z Install" type. The plain old adjustables do not shrink far enough to get them in without popping the rocker boxes, so you'd be no better off than with stock pushrods.

-JW

Can you adjust the preload with plain old adjustables? If so, does that mean that they are slightly better than non-adjustable stock rods if a new cam or slight milling was performed?
Can they be installed by pulling the lifter blocks?

[JW113]

Yes you can adjust the tappet preload, or plunger centering, to compensate for any dimensional change from head milling, base milling, gasket thickness, etc. But as far as installation, the non-"EZ" type are just like the stock solid pushrods. Have to remove tanks, remove rocker box tops, remove/loosen the lower rocker box to take the preload off the rocker arms, pull the rocker arm pivots, and remove or pull aside the rocker arms. Then reverse all that to put it back together again. And hope you didn't mess up a gasket and create a leak, which means you get to do it all over again. I suppose some guys just love doing all that, personally I hate it.

Especially when you can just whittle the pushrods down and pull them out, bing-bada-bang.

-JW

[Adam76]

Yes you can adjust the tappet preload, or plunger centering, to compensate for any dimensional change from head milling, base milling, gasket thickness, etc. But as far as installation, the non-"EZ" type are just like the stock solid pushrods. Have to remove tanks, remove rocker box tops, remove/loosen the lower rocker box to take the preload off the rocker arms, pull the rocker arm pivots, and remove or pull aside the rocker arms. Then reverse all that to put it back together again. And hope you didn't mess up a gasket and create a leak, which means you get to do it all over again. I suppose some guys just love doing all that, personally I hate it.

Especially when you can just whittle the pushrods down and pull them out, bing-bada-bang.

-JW

Thanks JW, yes I understood the difference between adjustable and EZ install. 

With the ev27 being on the noisy side, will being able to adjust the preload / plunger centering make any difference in quietening down the noisy valvetrain? 
Thanks

[Adam76]

Can you adjust the preload with plain old adjustables? If so, does that mean that they are slightly better than non-adjustable stock rods if a new cam or slight milling was performed?
Can they be installed by pulling the lifter blocks?

Thanks Hoss, that's a great point.   

[FSG]

I'd also look at drilling the tops of the PR Tubes to 5/8" and perhaps a set of Rocker Lockers while your there

if you check the PRs is there any sign of wear where perhaps they have bee touching/rubbing on the tubes?

[JW113]

With the ev27 being on the noisy side, will being able to adjust the preload / plunger centering make any difference in quietening down the noisy valvetrain? 

EV27 noisy, compared to what? Wood? Lieneweber? Not even close. Not sure who you're talking to, but the EV27 is not a noisy cam. And no, adjustable pushrods don't have that much effect on valve train noise. In fact, if you don't clearance the pushrod tubes such as FSG suggests, or cutting the bottom of the inner tube back a bit, you may end up with more noise from adjustable pushrods.

Or, ride with earplugs. Like me.


-JW

[Hossamania]

I have not found the EV27 to be noisy either.

[Adam76]

With the ev27 being on the noisy side, will being able to adjust the preload / plunger centering make any difference in quietening down the noisy valvetrain? 

EV27 noisy, compared to what? Wood? Lieneweber? Not even close. Not sure who you're talking to, but the EV27 is not a noisy cam. And no, adjustable pushrods don't have that much effect on valve train noise. In fact, if you don't clearance the pushrod tubes such as FSG suggests, or cutting the bottom of the inner tube back a bit, you may end up with more noise from adjustable pushrods.

Or, ride with earplugs. Like me.


-JW

Oh,  ok.... cool.   I assumed more aggressive ramps = more noise. 

Looks like I'm just going to put the oem PRs back in as I have the top end off anyways. Can you please tell me a little more about the pushrod cover interference and the cutting back you mentioned?

Thanks

[JW113]

If you're going to use the stock pushrods, don't worry about it. You have nothing to worry about.

-JW

[Adam76]

If you're going to use the stock pushrods, don't worry about it. You have nothing to worry about.

-JW

Ok. Cheers.  👍

[JW113]

EZ install are not about now, they're about next time. Is the Mrs. giving you a ration of grief about all the money you're spending on "that bitch, that whore" out in the garage?


-JW

[Adam76]

EZ install are not about now, they're about next time. Is the Mrs. giving you a ration of grief about all the money you're spending on "that bitch, that whore" out in the garage?


-JW

Mistress JW...... Mistress.   And no, I'm not getting any grief from the Mrs about the money - she's worse than I am.  She's just happy I'm out in the workshop.