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M8 big bore success stories

Started by riders1.jt, June 28, 2020, 01:29:17 PM

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riders1.jt

 Hi I'm new on here. So if I'm in the wrong place or posting a previously discussed topic my apologies. Anyways I am having my local dealer/tuner
install the Fuel Moto m8 124" big bore kit, woods valve springs, barnett scorpion clutch, bigger throttle body and injectors, and the latest factory oil pump. I have a 2017 FLHTK with 10k miles.  Just wanting to hear of any success stories with miles ridden with similar builds. Thanks

Nastytls

Why are you changing valve springs? What cam are you using? If you're going with a big enough cam to need different valve springs why aren't you getting port work done?

riders1.jt

The kit comes with the woods 408 cam and lifters. Valve springs are recommended with stock heads.

riders1.jt

Head work would've been nice but I couldn't afford it at this time. Stock heads with the woods springs should work for now. I'm hoping anyways..

riders1.jt

 I'm just hoping that these kits are road worthy and reliable for long trips etc...
I'll check back in tomorrow to see if anyone chimes in.

RTMike

Your kit should work fine post the numbers after tuning ,we are all interested .

scotman623

Your build should bring you many happy miles and smiles my friend... Very hard for us to guess on reliability, way too many variables.... The main key is to have a very knowledgeable engine builder who is precise with installation... Keep us updated..
Always look forward...

riders1.jt

I'll post numbers soon. Thanks for the vote of confidence.

wfolarry

Which springs? The .600 lift springs don't fit without some work done.

riders1.jt


carlos3621

The woods 408 cam is a .520 lift.
I have this setup and ended up with 142/146 tq.
Have had zero issues so far

riders1.jt


wfolarry


goblue90

Quote from: riders1.jt on June 28, 2020, 04:06:23 PM
I'm just hoping that these kits are road worthy and reliable for long trips etc...
I'll check back in tomorrow to see if anyone chimes in.

I did a saddle sore 1,000 a week after getting my 124" S&S big bore kit installed.  No issues over the past few thousand miles of having it installed.

RTMike

Let's see the numbers and your take on the build.

riders1.jt

 The SE extreme flow intake was on back order so there was a delay. Hopefully get it finished soon. Thanks for all of your replies... I'll let you know..

FLSTFIDave

My 130 inch was finished end of March.  I have just over 11,000 miles on the build.  Zero issues with it, weather its a 600 mile day of interstate or playing in the mountains and curves or group rides. 
2023 CVO Road Glide Whiskey Neat
2021 Pan America Special, Gray,  2003 Fatboy

riders1.jt

Well here's the numbers. I guess the conditions weren't optimal for the Dyno, hot, humid, etc. I need to get the oval big air breather instead of the arrow too.
But my butt Dyno is amazed with the difference! Just logged 150 miles. No issues...

Gliding Joe

You mentioned no money for head work, the cost of head work in my opinion does not provide enough gains to warrant it unless your chasing all you can get.  As you noted there are a few things that could improve this build, more air and more fuel. A 64 mm throttle body & larger AC unit will certainly give you some nice gains in numbers.  The bottom line is, As long as your happy with it that all that matters in the end.
As for the reliability of these big bore kits, I have clocked 10K on my 124" build, blows away the 117" HD kit both in performance and reliability. No more sumping, less heat and honestly the smoothest and quietest the engine has been is after the big bore kit.

Ride it with smiles and enjoy your build

riders1.jt

 I totally agree with what you're saying. I have the Fuel Moto ac/dc kit with 1" taller element on order. I tried talking my builder into the 64mm tb and intake but he likes the velocity of the 55mm SE extreme flow intake. As far as noise and heat, it runs way cooler and quieter. My fans don't kick on nearly as much or as long👍😎. Thanks

riders1.jt

Also are you using a pre filter a.k.a rain sock on yours in case of a downpour? I have one coming, but it involves removing the breather cover and slipping it on🙄... Thanks again

boggart


riders1.jt

 :hug:Vance and Hines power duals with eliminator 400...

98fxstc

I would be taking that bike to get a decent tune

riders1.jt

The bikes tuned very well. In fact the power vision came with the base map for my setup. She just needs more air. That's why you see the big dip on the intital throttle. I agree the lines aren't perfect. Guess I'll see what the bigger air breather does. She idles, runs, and sounds great. Just hesitates if you crack the throttle... If you roll into it there's no problem. I'll let you know what the Fuel Moto ac/dc kit with big element does...Thanks

98fxstc

That looks like a WOT run on the base map
Do you have AFR ?
Looks like the timing needs work

Hossamania

Seeing that big dip down to 75 ft/lbs does not tell me it "tuned very well." Most M8s hit their torque early and stay there.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

kd

It appears that bike was not tuned if that's the final (only) sheet.  run #001  :scratch:   :nix:
KD

rigidthumper

Tune brings out whatever is available. Baffle design and muffler size really influence the curve of the sheet. Here is the same bike (M8 124), first sheet is V&H PCD head pipe, Khromeworks muffler with HP+ baffle. Next sheet is same combo with baffle removed for "sound". Last sheet is with Rinehart  mufflers.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

BigT

Quote from: riders1.jt on July 28, 2020, 11:04:03 AM
I totally agree with what you're saying. I have the Fuel Moto ac/dc kit with 1" taller element on order. I tried talking my builder into the 64mm tb and intake but he likes the velocity of the 55mm SE extreme flow intake. As far as noise and heat, it runs way cooler and quieter. My fans don't kick on nearly as much or as long👍😎. Thanks
Did you buy this kit directly from Fuel Moto as they could have given you some build advice. I don't recall ever seeing this setup with the 408 cam using the stock throttle body. I had installed the Same FM kit with the SE 64mm throttle body and good flowing exhaust and made 143tq & 152hp.

riders1.jt

 I contacted the builder and they're going to do another tune on it at the end of August. They said it would take a full day. I said that's fine as long as they straighten those lines out.  In the meantime I'm going to put the bigger breather on before I head to Sturgis. Thanks for the input  everyone...

Hossamania

Have fun, let us know how Sturgis is this year.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

scotman623

A 64mm TB and a good tune would have that bike running great... Needs more fuel and air...Enjoy Sturgis my friend 😎🤝
Always look forward...

riders1.jt

So my trip Sturgis was a blast! The bike ran pretty good with the bigger A/C. Still feeling a flat spot if I really rip and get the rpms up over 4K. Think I'm going to get the 64mm Tb  and manifold. Wish the HD tech would've suggested that originally whereas I had to wait forever for the se 55mm extreme flow manifold that isn't working for this setup... I'm getting a day of tuning as well. So I'll let you all know..It's almost like the tech didn't want me to get the full benefit from this kit. He kept comparing the HD 131 stage lV kit. I don't think he's big on fuelmoto and maybe afraid of what numbers are possible with my setup...We shall see...

Hossamania

Post up some stories of Sturgis in the Sturgis thread, interested in hearing how it was.
Glad the bike ran well for you.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

riders1.jt

 Getting the SE 64mm throttle body and manifold and a really  thorough tune. I'll let you know where we end up numbers wise....

klammer76

Quote from: riders1.jt on August 16, 2020, 11:01:41 AM
Getting the SE 64mm throttle body and manifold and a really  thorough tune. I'll let you know where we end up numbers wise....
Did you wind up getting the tune?

riders1.jt

Not much of a difference😑.  I asked if they got a different map from fuelmoto with the bigger 64mm intake and Tb. They said fuelmoto only gives you one tune per build🙄. So I'm still way below where i thought I'd be. But it's running smoother with better initial throttle response. So idk. Find another tech to tune it? smh

To The Max

Hi, if you have the power vision why dont you call fuel moto yourself and get them to send you the correct tune . i have used there tunes before and out of the box they are really close. then if your happy find a good tuner and have him tweek it. Max

riders1.jt

 I didn't know that could be done. Thanks Max.  I'll try that.

Gliding Joe

riders1, what exhaust are you running with this build. that dip looks to me that your exhaust velocity (some call it back pressure) is the issue. I am guessing Fuel Moto is going to ask that same question and possibly recommend something different. 
Fuel Moto did a exhaust comparison write up showing what different headers and slip ons can do to a tune and slip ons can cause that dip. They do have baffles that can help as well.

riders1.jt

 I was wondering about the exhaust. It's the Vance and Hines power duals with eliminator 400....

riders1.jt

I sent fuelmoto an email requesting a base map for my setup. I'm hoping to get here eventually.

riders1.jt

I just talked to fuelmoto and you were correct in the exhaust theory. I ordered the 6" inserts to hep the dips and shaky lines..Thanks

riders1.jt

 Well I got the inserts in. Got the bike dyno tuned AGAIN. This was a 4th gear pull. Was hoping for a little more hp & tq. But it's smooth and stout throughout the gears...

No Cents

    I'm sorry and it's none of my business but I don't see how they think your bike is tuned properly with the two graphs you have shown.
    The 1st graph shows only 3 pulls being made, and the last one at least shows six pulls. I'm no tuner but I don't see how they can properly tune a bike with so few pulls.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Buglet

   All depends how the runs are saved. I always do my runs 2 or 3 time for checking,  but only save one run so it will show less runs. But the other thing is the time, it looks like he spend 2 1/2 hours from 1 to 6, now if that was for WOT that's a lot of time, but for a full tune that's had to be an easy one to do.   

BigT

Quote from: No Cents on October 06, 2020, 09:19:39 AM
    I'm sorry and it's none of my business but I don't see how they think your bike is tuned properly with the two graphs you have shown.
    The 1st graph shows only 3 pulls being made, and the last one at least shows six pulls. I'm no tuner but I don't see how they can properly tune a bike with so few pulls.
I just can't get over the low HP output of this build. Most 124" builds with the Woods 408 cam, and larger throttle body are closer to 140 hp. If it was my bike I'd be digging a little deeper for some missing power.

kd

KD

BigT

Quote from: kd on October 06, 2020, 04:53:27 PM
Sumping?
I had a built 117" Twin Cam that I thought was running good...had it on a dyno and it was making 100 hp due to sumping.  It made 130+ once it was straightened out.

kd

Quote from: BigT on October 06, 2020, 04:30:39 PM
Quote from: No Cents on October 06, 2020, 09:19:39 AM
    I'm sorry and it's none of my business but I don't see how they think your bike is tuned properly with the two graphs you have shown.
    The 1st graph shows only 3 pulls being made, and the last one at least shows six pulls. I'm no tuner but I don't see how they can properly tune a bike with so few pulls.
I just can't get over the low HP output of this build. Most 124" builds with the Woods 408 cam, and larger throttle body are closer to 140 hp. If it was my bike I'd be digging a little deeper for some missing power.

Quote from: kd on October 06, 2020, 04:53:27 PM
Sumping?

Quote from: BigT on October 06, 2020, 05:08:08 PM
Quote from: kd on October 06, 2020, 04:53:27 PM
Sumping?
I had a built 117" Twin Cam that I thought was running good...had it on a dyno and it was making 100 hp due to sumping.  It made 130+ once it was straightened out.


All things above considered in comparison that's about the same amount of missing average power for this combination. Has it been checked for sumping?
KD

boggart

Quote from: riders1.jt on October 05, 2020, 05:05:01 PM
Well I got the inserts in. Got the bike dyno tuned AGAIN. This was a 4th gear pull. Was hoping for a little more hp & tq. But it's smooth and stout throughout the gears...

That is a HUGE improvement in curves!

riders1.jt

 Hey guys. Thanks for the replies. I had a big bummer moment today. I did a cold cranking compression test. I unhooked the fuel line and deactivated the acr with my power vision. Pulled the outside plugs and checked each cylinder. Only 170ccp! I thought well maybe the ACRs aren't deactivating. So I pulled the tank and unplugged them. Still only got 180ccp. Definitely something wrong with this build....

kd

October 07, 2020, 07:33:40 PM #53 Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 07:47:36 PM by kd
For what it's worth, I don't think anyone was criticizing your build in any derogatory manner.  To me it just didn't fit the average expectations.  I guess you felt the same.  You've taken the right approach by investigating the foundation.  My understanding is the M8 has good compression and by that I mean more than your best test of 180.  That may not be enough for that cam. It could be cam timing late 1 tooth that can cause low compression but still run reasonable. If the tech didn't check the deck height and the pistons are down in the hole too far with a .045 head gasket that will make a difference. It may be other issues too.  Did you hold the throttle plate open when testing? How many hits did you give it taking the test? Is your battery up to it? (consider a jump from a car battery doing the test) Keep sharing your findings.

BTW, it looks like the Wood 408 cam likes 11:1 compression.  That seems to be what Fuel Moto builds them (128) at and Jaimie would have tested the build.  Here's some info from his m8 testing thread and the first one is a 124 with the 408 cam.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,102329.msg1268791.html#msg1268791
KD

riders1.jt

 Thanks for the reply. I did hold the throttle wide open and turned it til the gauge stopped. Battery was tended and I kept the tender on before I did the second test with the ACRs unplugged. Think I should of warmed it up? Think I should put my battery charger on start hook it up to the battery and try it? Seemed to turn over pretty good.  I agree with your statements about the cam etc...Thanks again...

Jamie Long

For those following along i've been in touch with this customer over the past several weeks. I'm in full agreement this build is missing a fair chunk of power and unfortunately he's hit some road blocks with the shop that did the build. I've reviewed his info and recommended he perform a compression test, upon doing so its coming up way short. We build this combo day in day out and they crank 220+, and while difficult to make a definitive conclusion having not seen the bike there is a strong chance the cam timing is off.
The integrity of our kits is something that is very important the me, I made a recommendation today to bring us the bike and made the offer i'd diagnose, get to the bottom of the issue, and repair it for no charge; the only cost being a full dyno tune for $449.00. I will personally make sure the bike is turn key, the only thing I ask is we'll need to orchestrate it around our schedule. I truly hope we'll get the opportunity to make this build what it should be.

kd

October 07, 2020, 09:04:13 PM #56 Last Edit: October 07, 2020, 09:15:00 PM by kd
Well that about says it all.  That's a heck of an offer :up: :beer:
KD

Hossamania

I agree, that is really stepping up to the plate. It's unfortunate the op is having such troubles.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

riders1.jt

 Fuel Moto has been with me through this whole ordeal. Their customer service is second to none. I'm done with the testing and racking my brain to find power that just isn't there. I'm waiting for a quote from Haulbikes to get it to Jamie. This is an offer I can't refuse. I'd ride it to Wisconsin myself if I could get that much time off work, but unfortunately this is not the case. Thank you Jamie. I'll be in touch.

kd

I hope (suspect) the original shop that did the work is going to learn something here.
KD

No Cents

   Very nice offer Jamie!    :up:
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

hattitude

Quote from: No Cents on October 08, 2020, 08:42:40 AM

   Very nice offer Jamie!    :up:


I'm not surprised....

One thing I noticed when dealing with FuelMoto during my 124" crate engine install/tune, Jaime really does care about the performance of his products and the satisfaction of his customers..

I'll skip the details, but during my experience, Jaime made a suggestion, that in the end, saved me almost $1K... I didn't expect it, ask for it, or even consider it... It was all from him..

Good customer service, good people...   :up:

klammer76

Nice going Jamie. As always, Fuel Moto is top notch.

riders1.jt

 My bike is on its way to Wisconsin. I'm very interested to see what they find and fix for it to reach its full potential...  Thanks again Jamie!

vetteandharley

  Been following this thread, what was the outcome?   :scratch:

Jamie Long

Quote from: vetteandharley on November 10, 2020, 09:36:58 AM
  Been following this thread, what was the outcome?   :scratch:

Bike was delivered here yesterday afternoon. It will be next week before we're able to get a look at it.

vetteandharley

  Still curious what the problem with this bike was.  TIA

RTMike

Let's hear some input on this bike and the outcome of the trip to Jamie

riders1.jt

 I got the bike back from Fuelmoto a couple of days ago. My shipper took awhile.  It sounds sooo much better. When the ice melts I'll be testing it out. I won't go into details about what the problem was in an effort not to embarrass the original builder. Let's just say they made a huge mistake and Jamie and his guys straightened everything out. I'm beyond thankful and relieved. I'll let Jamie explain the details if he chooses to do so. They truly are the best.. #fuelmoto4life!

Hossamania

Congratulations!
Good on Jamie for getting that straightened out for you, looks like you are going to have a lot of fun with it.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

kd

That's great news.  I do hope Jamie feels he can find a way to explain what the mistake was (without trash talking the builder  :embarrassed: ).  There is much to be learned from that type of information sharing for both the builder(s) and those of us that get satisfaction from doing our own work.
KD

FLSTFIDave

Glad Jamie got it figured out.  Looks like it will be a fun ride this spring now that its sorted out.
2023 CVO Road Glide Whiskey Neat
2021 Pan America Special, Gray,  2003 Fatboy

Hossamania

January 03, 2021, 07:12:13 AM #72 Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 08:43:24 AM by Hossamania
Has the shop that did the work been made aware of their mistake, not to harangue them, but to help them with future builds?
And yes, I think it would be interesting and helpful to know what the issue is. Certainly no reason to name the shop, and technically not allowed here to bash other companies.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

BigT

Quote from: riders1.jt on January 02, 2021, 08:37:39 AM
I got the bike back from Fuelmoto a couple of days ago. My shipper took awhile.  It sounds sooo much better. When the ice melts I'll be testing it out. I won't go into details about what the problem was in an effort not to embarrass the original builder. Let's just say they made a huge mistake and Jamie and his guys straightened everything out. I'm beyond thankful and relieved. I'll let Jamie explain the details if he chooses to do so. They truly are the best.. #fuelmoto4life!
You never named the original builder so how would telling us what was found to be the problem embarrass anyone? I would guess cam timing was incorrect by the low cranking compression.

kd

KD

riders1.jt

My apologies guys.  I guess I never did mention the original builder in this never ending thread. The original builder put the fuelmoto 124" kit for a 114 M8 in my bike which is a 107" M8 if you can believe that. After I specifically told them to order the 107" M8 kit. So they didn't check the deck height etc. during the build.

Hossamania

Thanks for that feedback. Hopefully they will take the info and use it going forward. And hopefully compensate you.
I also have a question, would a compression test have shown this issue, or at least lead to the problem?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

riders1.jt

 Thank you and yes a compression test would have shown the shortfall. That's what I did on my own per Jamie's instructions. My original builder couldn't believe these kits produce 200+ per cylinder. They really pushed their stage 4 HD product and demeaned the fuelmoto kit which really upset me.. I am happy now knowing these fuelmoto kits are for real..TQ and HP!

RTMike

Thanks for the feed back,glad everything worked out.It's nice to see this day and age of plastic and BS that someone stood behind there product and fixed the problem,and the problem really wasn't his.Looks good on you Jamie for taking care of a customer and fixing the problem.

kd

Thanks for the details.  Good on Jamie too.  I find it hard to believe a builder that could find themselves re$pon$ible for a mi$take didn't confirm all measurements during assembly.  Lesson learned for all I guess.
KD

FXDBI

Quote from: kd on January 03, 2021, 09:38:50 AM
Thanks for the details.  Good on Jamie too.  I find it hard to believe a builder that could find themselves re$pon$ible for a mi$take didn't confirm all measurements during assembly.  Lesson learned for all I guess.


That guy isnt a engine builder,  guy is a parts changer only. Probilly uses a =/- 20% torque wrench has well.  Things like this remind me why I wont even let anyone else change my oil.   Bob

Hossamania

If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.


No Cents

  I'm glad Jamie was able to get it handled for you!  :up:

08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

DTTJGlide

It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see the piston is 1/16" below the cylinder deck surface :doh:, as FXDBI said they just slap parts on! They should compensate you for the trouble & cost since you told them the right kit to buy.

FLSTFIDave

How could the builder not notice the pistons were so low in the cylinder.  That is obvious low, not just a few thousandths. 

Builders always check and double check deck height
2023 CVO Road Glide Whiskey Neat
2021 Pan America Special, Gray,  2003 Fatboy

Buglet

      I had a similar situation years ago with cams  The cams I was using work go for what I was doing, used a bunch of them. Until one day one set was not doing what it was suppose to. Call the vendor with no real answer of what was going on, after checking ever thing come to find out he change the duration on the cam without changing the part number of the cam or give you any clue it was different.. I ask him way he didn't change the part number he couldn't give me no answer. From that day on all his cams had superseded part numbers ever time he did any changers to the cam. I still wish he made the original cam.     

riders1.jt

Two totally different kits for different applications. No excuse for this. I was crystal clear on what I wanted. Plus they had serviced my bike and done other work so they knew the year and motor...

Jamie Long

A short version is the dealer that installed the kit ordered a 128 kit rather than a 124, this was documented and is clearly listed on their sales invoice and packing list. They installed the kit obviously not checking deck height, cranking compression etc, and when the dyno numbers came out low they threw everyone under the bus. We got the bike in and it cranked 160 ccp and first assumed the cam timing was off, upon disassembly we found the wrong pistons. Cleaned the cylinders up, swapped pistons, reassembled and gave it a full dyno tune and all was well.   

Buglet

   Glad it all went well.  That's what the say is to double and triple check ever thing.

Scotty

Quote from: FLSTFIDave on January 04, 2021, 03:29:39 AM
How could the builder not notice the pistons were so low in the cylinder.  That is obvious low, not just a few thousandths. 

Builders always check and double check deck height

:agree: that is what I was thinking, surely that would have stood out just assembling it  :wtf:

Buglet

     Apparently they did not rotate the motor, they just assembly it with out checking to see if ever thing was right. Just like it was on the assembly line. Easy enough if you don't check for it.

riders1.jt

 Just kicked the tires and lit the fires. Totally different bike. Road highway, interstate, and around town. It's more fun than I could of imagined! 😎

Hossamania

If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

HogMike

It's a shame you had to miss 6 months of riding and probably a few more $$$ to get this straightened out!

I have a 124 in my M8 and just did a gas mileage check with the normal route and load that I usually carry.
44 MPG is amazing considering slow twisties, long grades, freeway at 80, and everything in between.
I think you will really like that motor. Way fun and passing power right where you need it!

JMHO, of course. :chop:
HOGMIKE
SoCal

Ohio HD

That's a real shame. Those pistons were + 0.060" down the cylinder, a blind man could see that. I would bet they didn't even turn the motor over once during assembly, other than to place the cylinders over the pistons.

Just a bad deal all around for the OP. 

ziggy24

Quote from: Jamie Long on January 04, 2021, 10:12:47 AM
A short version is the dealer that installed the kit ordered a 128 kit rather than a 124, this was documented and is clearly listed on their sales invoice and packing list. They installed the kit obviously not checking deck height, cranking compression etc, and when the dyno numbers came out low they threw everyone under the bus. We got the bike in and it cranked 160 ccp and first assumed the cam timing was off, upon disassembly we found the wrong pistons. Cleaned the cylinders up, swapped pistons, reassembled and gave it a full dyno tune and all was well.   

Good thing this wasnt the other way around!  Although as soon as they spun the engine and it locked up they would have found it!