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Power Vision Timing Capabilities

Started by WhipLash96, July 03, 2020, 05:32:40 PM

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WhipLash96

For my wife's bike I decided that I am going to go with the CR 570-2. Now, I am not by any stretch of the imagination well versed in the capabilities of the Power Vision. My question is this.....

How much timing in terms of degrees can be added or taken out? How does that work when using the PV? To be able to follow your answer, please use simple language and be as simple as possible.  :smiled:
Thanks,
Whip

Hossamania

Are you talking changing the degrees on the cam or in the ignition?

If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Coyote

You can set the timing to whatever you want.  :nix:

Hossamania

A friend just put them in, got a canned tune from Fuel Moto with Power Vision, then had a tune done.
He is very happy.

[attach=0,msg1353473]
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Hossamania

I was wrong about the canned map, it was actually an FP3 using a map for an S&S 570 on the base run. The tuner was a little surprised that it ran ok on it, then used a Power Vision for final tune to smoothe it all out.
The owner says it just jumps at cruising speed when he rolls on the throttle. Big from on his face all day long.
Your wife (and you!) will really like it.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

WhipLash96

Quote from: Coyote on July 03, 2020, 06:33:35 PM
You can set the timing to whatever you want.  :nix:

How different from ignition timing to cam timing? Cam timing stays constant but we just tell it when to fire at a different time?
Thanks,
Whip

Ohio HD

Cam timing numbers and ignition timing numbers don't correlate in any way together, one is irrelevant to the other.

Correct ignition timing is acquired by running on the dyno, measuring many aspects of the bikes behavior, performance, etc. It all plays with fuel AFR and load at various RPM ranges in different gears. There is no set it here because of this these cams are installed.

WhipLash96

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 03, 2020, 08:17:33 PM
Cam timing numbers and ignition timing numbers don't correlate in any way together, one is irrelevant to the other.

Correct ignition timing is acquired by running on the dyno, measuring many aspects of the bikes behavior, performance, etc. It all plays with fuel AFR and load at various RPM ranges in different gears. There is no set it here because of this these cams are installed.

This what I suspected but I just wanted to make sure. Looks like I am going to advance the cam 4 degrees then. :smiled:
Thanks,
Whip

Ohio HD

Quote from: WhipLash96 on July 05, 2020, 07:04:41 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 03, 2020, 08:17:33 PM
Cam timing numbers and ignition timing numbers don't correlate in any way together, one is irrelevant to the other.

Correct ignition timing is acquired by running on the dyno, measuring many aspects of the bikes behavior, performance, etc. It all plays with fuel AFR and load at various RPM ranges in different gears. There is no set it here because of this these cams are installed.

This what I suspected but I just wanted to make sure. Looks like I am going to advance the cam 4 degrees then. :smiled:

I think you misunderstood my comments.

Since you are now changing the characteristics of the motor, compression, timing of events, etc. The bike should be re-tuned. Moving a cams timing does not correlate to a direct value of changes in ignition timing to the MAP. This is acquired during the tuning process.

My guess is your doing this to favor intake valve closing sooner. But what you also get is exhaust valve opening 4° later ABDC. This may or may not effect how well the exhaust gasses are spent from the motor, and potentially diluting the next intake cycle.

Hossamania

July 05, 2020, 11:28:19 AM #9 Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 11:49:09 AM by Hossamania
A lot of time and engineering went into making the cam work the way it does, I'm curious why you would want to change the way it works instead of choosing a different cam that works the way you want?
What is your expectation by changing the cam timing? Have you talked with Cycle Rama to get their input?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

WhipLash96

Quote from: Ohio HD on July 05, 2020, 09:22:28 AM
Quote from: WhipLash96 on July 05, 2020, 07:04:41 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 03, 2020, 08:17:33 PM
Cam timing numbers and ignition timing numbers don't correlate in any way together, one is irrelevant to the other.

Correct ignition timing is acquired by running on the dyno, measuring many aspects of the bikes behavior, performance, etc. It all plays with fuel AFR and load at various RPM ranges in different gears. There is no set it here because of this these cams are installed.

This what I suspected but I just wanted to make sure. Looks like I am going to advance the cam 4 degrees then. :smiled:

I think you misunderstood my comments.

Since you are now changing the characteristics of the motor, compression, timing of events, etc. The bike should be re-tuned. Moving a cams timing does not correlate to a direct value of changes in ignition timing to the MAP. This is acquired during the tuning process.

My guess is your doing this to favor intake valve closing sooner. But what you also get is exhaust valve opening 4° later ABDC. This may or may not effect how well the exhaust gasses are spent from the motor, and potentially diluting the next intake cycle.
Nope. No misunderstanding. I'm well aware of what advancing the cam will do to the rest of the events. I guess I will see on the base pull if that cam is going to be where I want it or not without advancing it. On paper it looks like it will be in the ballpark. Yes, I am looking at the IVC event. I know that the Andrews 48 is real close to this one, but I like the CR 570-2 overall a tad more. If I do advance it, I think that the CR would perform better than the Andrews 48.
Thanks,
Whip

Hossamania

Then why wouldn't he have designed it that way?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Ohio HD

Quote from: WhipLash96 on July 05, 2020, 12:13:28 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 05, 2020, 09:22:28 AM
Quote from: WhipLash96 on July 05, 2020, 07:04:41 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 03, 2020, 08:17:33 PM
Cam timing numbers and ignition timing numbers don't correlate in any way together, one is irrelevant to the other.

Correct ignition timing is acquired by running on the dyno, measuring many aspects of the bikes behavior, performance, etc. It all plays with fuel AFR and load at various RPM ranges in different gears. There is no set it here because of this these cams are installed.

This what I suspected but I just wanted to make sure. Looks like I am going to advance the cam 4 degrees then. :smiled:

I think you misunderstood my comments.

Since you are now changing the characteristics of the motor, compression, timing of events, etc. The bike should be re-tuned. Moving a cams timing does not correlate to a direct value of changes in ignition timing to the MAP. This is acquired during the tuning process.

My guess is your doing this to favor intake valve closing sooner. But what you also get is exhaust valve opening 4° later ABDC. This may or may not effect how well the exhaust gasses are spent from the motor, and potentially diluting the next intake cycle.
Nope. No misunderstanding. I'm well aware of what advancing the cam will do to the rest of the events. I guess I will see on the base pull if that cam is going to be where I want it or not without advancing it. On paper it looks like it will be in the ballpark. Yes, I am looking at the IVC event. I know that the Andrews 48 is real close to this one, but I like the CR 570-2 overall a tad more. If I do advance it, I think that the CR would perform better than the Andrews 48.

Well, the chances that will help anything on those cams is pretty slim IMHO. My best guess is that will do nothing or run worse than a straight installation. The cams already have 8° of intake advance already ground into them by design of Wes. The wide lobe separation wants to push the peak torque up the RPM range. If you're wanting better low end than you think these will give, I would have added a point of compression or used another set of cams. Unless Wes himself told you to advance them, I wouldn't.


baggerpaul

engine runs a speed density fuel system engine controller .power vision is capable of adjusting timing and air fuel ratios across the entire rpm range .manifold pressure and throttle position input allows you to look current state of tune and make changes if need be at that rpm and map kpa.you have a good tool to use shouldn't be a problem at all