Next Step?

[chaos901]

2010 CVO Ultra / 110 / 56,000 miles / stock but tuned with SERT.   

This weekend on a four day trip the bike used about a quart of oil on two lane roads with no long runs on the expressway at high speed, which is unusual.  When I got home I did a compression test, 135 on the front and 152 on the rear (did the front twice).  Did a leak down test, rear was 48/50 and the front was 36/50.  Ran the engine around to TDC again and did the front a second time, same results.  Even had the pushrods uncovered where I could twist them on the front to be sure. 

I suppose the next step is to pull the heads to see if a valve is sticking.  Could hear some air at the exhaust but it was fairly faint. 

Thinking while writing this, would I hear air at the oil fill if it is the rings or cylinder? 

Now my wife wants me to get a new engine, but I don't want to make that leap yet.

Basically, looking for some assistance on direction.

[Hossamania]

I doubt a new engine is in order, worst case scenario a new top end rebuild.

[Scotty]

2009 up for a couple of years had very suspect exhaust valve guides which came loose and can be fixed quite easily by a good workshop.
Either way you are going to have to remove the heads and have a look I think.

[Hillside Motorcycle]

We witnessed those cylinders out-of-round on some of those, causing unwanted oil useage.
Precision valve/seat work at the same time, and back in the wind.

[prodrag1320]

im sure theres no reason for a new motor,rebuild top end & you`ll be fine

[rigidthumper]

A known issue ( besides the ones already mentioned) is inner cam bearing failure on the early 110 CVOs, but before tearing the cam cavity apart for that, re-do the compression tests with the ACRs unplugged.

[chaos901]

I did not unplug the ACRs for either test, will redo. 

I did change the cam bearings about a year ago.

[les]

I can't remember what year, but I recall discussions about the cylinder sleeves slipping/shifting upward on early 110 engines.  I have a close friend that this happened to.

[Coyote]

I can't remember what year, but I recall discussions about the cylinder sleeves slipping/shifting upward on early 110 engines.  I have a close friend that this happened to.

2007-2008

[harpwrench]

I had one just like yours a few years ago, wish I would have hung onto it! Anyway, I did a top end on it and ended up tearing it completely down for a crank about 5 thousand miles later. The reason it needed the top end was because the rod bearings were shedding metal and squirting it on the pistons. I figured the scoring was from the prior owner running it hot and wasn't looking close enough to see what was going on, it wasn't showing up on the drain plug yet the first go around.

[chaos901]

FWIW, I did check my run-out when doing the cam bearings.  I don't remember the number but it was well within tolerance; least it was back then.  Since it seems that I will be getting fairly deep into it again, I will verify the run-out again. 

[Screamin beagle]

Everybody is missing the biggest key here...his wife said get a new motor lol. Hes got a hall pass to go nuts, so what kind of friends are we to talk him out of it? Do it right the first time, rebuild it from the crank up. Darkhorse crank, case work to go 124. I'd get in touch with one these great engine builders on here and make a game plan...good luck with the bike

[kd]

Everybody is missing the biggest key here...his wife said get a new motor lol. Hes got a hall pass to go nuts, so what kind of friends are we to talk him out of it? Do it right the first time, rebuild it from the crank up. Darkhorse crank, case work to go 124. I'd get in touch with one these great engine builders on here and make a game plan...good luck with the bike

[chaos901]

Now you see the light....but I'm still likely not going that direction because I like my engine they way it is....go figure.

I've sent out emails to folks here about doing my heads, no responses yet.   

[chaos901]

Getting bike apart, got the front head off last night.  Should have time to get rear off tonight.  Sending heads to Larry in Chicago.  Cylinder appears OK, will verify bore, change rings, lifters, check runout, possibly change oil pump.  Will have some time while the heads are gone.   

  [attach=0,msg1354214]

[chaos901]

Front Cylinder

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[les]

You mentioned that you will "change rings".  Does that include de-glazing the cylinder walls too so the rings will properly break in?

[RTMike]

Your all ready there,rebore new pistons and rings to suite your cam and head work. Talk to Larry he will point you in the right direction on your project.

[chaos901]

Do plan to de-glaze, but do appreciate the comment.  Some decisions I'm waiting on the outcome of my run-out.  It has been OK before and I like my 110, but if it is bad I suppose I will bite the bullet and go bigger.

[Hossamania]

Your choices will be determined once the cylinders are measured. If too far out of round, perhaps a slight overbore to clean up, new pistons to fit, not a real increase in size. I'm not sure how far the 110 cylinders can be bored, not my area of expertise. If too far gone, a new set of 110 cylinders, reuse your pistons, or possibly new. No real need to go crazy with a big motor, clean yours up as cost efficiently as possible, and go. Staying 110" with the the heads cleaned up and a good tune will be a nice running machine. With any luck, a deglaze and rings will be all you need.
Just my two cents worth while I kill time this morning.

[FLDavetrain]

110 cylinders can be bored to 113ci

[aharp]

110 top ends definitely have room for improvement in the fitment department.

[chaos901]

Got it apart, runout was acceptable, started to put the cam chest back together and ran my fingers around the cam lobes and found a bad place.  The front cam (right in the photo) has a place that is real rough and pitted. 

Granted the front cylinder was the one that failed the tests, but what causes something like this to occur?

[attach=0,msg1354548]

EDIT:  I did have the cams out last year when I changed the cam bearings, did not notice anything then, but maybe missed it.

[rigidthumper]

The cams, lifters, and inner cam bearings on CVOs take a beating from the big valve springs.

[FXDBI]

Lifter rollers look shot to.  Why don't you get it all apart and CLEANED and inspected before you assemble anything?   Dis-assemble and clean and inspect it all first. When you say run out was acceptable it doesn't tell what it is? If you were already re-assembling that cam chest it is filthy and needs to be much cleaner. Cleanliness is next to godliness and a requirement of proper engine work.  Bob

[chaos901]

I do appreciate the comments.

Why don't you get it all apart and CLEANED and inspected before you assemble anything?

To me, "assembly" includes the cleaning of the parts, running a thread restorer down the bolt holes and blowing out with air, cleaning the bolt threads with a wire (brass) brush and the inspection.  Might not be the most efficient way, but time I got.     

The run out was between .003 and .004, measured with a FUELING TOOL.  Granted some want less than .002, H-D considers up to .012 to be acceptable, so it is kind of a moving scale.  I have chain driven cams and consider this measurement to be acceptable. 

Lifter rollers look shot to.

This one I am curious about.  Truth be told I am changing the lifters to a different model (since I'm there) but these have only been on the bike for less than 10K miles and I planned on saving them.  I went back out after reading this and they do not show any real wear, that I could see or feel.  What made them look shot? 

Getting new cams now (likely SE255), but can't work on that until next weekend due to time involved and I won't get the cams until the middle of the week.  Likely will go ahead and change the cam bearings some evening though.

If too far out of round, perhaps a slight overbore to clean up, new pistons to fit, not a real increase in size.

I've taken the front cylinder and piston off to clean and check.  The bore on the front was uniform all the way down measured on four different lines.  I am "assuming" (bad word) that out of round would show up as larger in some places and tighter in others.  I suppose after I get the piston cleaned I could reinstall and check side clearances around the edge at different depths. 
 

[Propflux01]

Instead of the 255, why not consider the Andrews 48 instead.

[FXDBI]

The rollers on the 2 lifters in the picture look frosted for lack of a better word, like some debris has gone thru them. The one that was riding that damaged lobe cant be very pretty. Others have said on here lifters are a dirt trap. Oil goes thru the lifter passages to the piston oilers, don't take much to stick one of those. I would flip the heads and check the valve to seat seal with some varsol and see if they leak.  Bob

[chaos901]

The rollers on the 2 lifters in the picture look frosted for lack of a better word, like some debris has gone thru them. The one that was riding that damaged lobe cant be very pretty.

Fair enough.  Lots of carbon on the pistons, especially the front, so some of that was likely floating around.  The heads (certainly the front) are an issue and sending them the Larry in Chicago, always wanted to see what a difference he could make and now is the perfect time.  I was expecting to see something on the roller that was riding that lifter too, but I can't find it.  I always was changing the lifters but now I see that I should not save that set at all.

I believe the front exhaust valve was leaking, after it failed the compression and leak down tests, I took the exhaust off and put air into the front cylinder (like a leak down) and it was blowing out the front.  Had the intake off too and it appeared tight.  Heads boxed up now.

Instead of the 255, why not consider the Andrews 48 instead.

I have the 255 in a 2008 Ultra with a 110 and like the way it rides.  There have been a lot of discussions / debates (sometimes heated) here about various cams and which one is the best.  Similar to oil.  Interesting to read for me, but honestly I do not know enough to fully appreciate the differences that a little more timing here, or less there can make. 

Open to suggestions that would fit my riding.  Not looking to be the fastest as that comes with a trade-off.  My riding is almost all traveling now, always two-up, I'm 6-3 and 235, my wife is no longer 105 lbs (not going to ask), bike & bag loaded for several days and never pull a trailer.  Typical day is about 500 miles on two lane roads.  Will cruise about 10 mph over the posted speed, unless talking about the WY interstate where the posted speed is fine.     
 
               

[rigidthumper]

If you like the way the 255s work, but want a little more, I like the TTS100 cam- it beats the SE255 everywhere, and I've not found a cam that is better from idle to 4500 RPM @ less than 10:1 compression.

[Propflux01]

If you like the way the 255s work, but want a little more, I like the TTS100 cam- it beats the SE255 everywhere, and I've not found a cam that is better from idle to 4500 RPM @ less than 10:1 compression.

This is how I feel about the Andrews 48. Either of these cams I would recommend over the heat-producing 255.

[sfmichael]

If you like the way the 255s work, but want a little more, I like the TTS100 cam- it beats the SE255 everywhere, and I've not found a cam that is better from idle to 4500 RPM @ less than 10:1 compression.

solid advice right here 

[chaos901]

Looks like I need to do more investigation into choice of cams.

The SE255 is the OEM cams on 110 CVOs and doing some reading they have some history of damage at the front exhaust lobe.  Which seems curious since I have always felt that the rear is exposed to more heat due to less air.  Obviously more factors involved that I don't know.     

[838]

Looks like I need to do more investigation into choice of cams.

The SE255 is the OEM cams on 110 CVOs and doing some reading they have some history of damage at the front exhaust lobe.  Which seems curious since I have always felt that the rear is exposed to more heat due to less air.  Obviously more factors involved that I don't know.     

I think it has a lot to do with the profile of the 255 cam combined with the heavy springs of the 110" heads (beating on cam lobes and lifters).

Have whoever is cleaning up your heads select a cam that suits the work they are performing (there are Plenty of excellent choices). You'll get everything you like from the 255 plus a set up that's cooler running and easier on the valve train (reliability and longevity of parts).

[TorQuePimp]

With a mild bump in compression
Rs/zippers 587 works very well

[chaos901]

As mentioned above, I did seek Larry's opinion on the cam choice.  Since I liked the 255 I would be happy with the TTS100, called Phil and got one on the way.  Hopefully get them before this weekend. 

[boooby1744]

New,lighter valve springs?

[chaos901]

The valve springs are being changed as part of the head package, honestly I don't know if lighter or not, but I trust that Larry does it right.

[Geezer_Glider]

Never ever trust Larry! His work leads to clutch and rear tire wear along with speeding tickets.
R Meyer

[kd]

whatcha call unintended consequence?   

[chaos901]

Update:  A week or so ago I pulled the full roller cam bearings I had had installed a year ago while waiting on the new cams (TTS-100).  I had gotten a gasket kit from my dealer and went to install their cam bearings and noticed that they were the original cage type, should have known honestly.  Decided to proceed with the OEM type bearings, would change the bearings over the winter.  Installed the new cams in the original cam plate and installed them with the original oil pump.  Thought about it for awhile and decided that with all that is being done I really need to change the cam plate and pump too.  So called Phil and got the S&S set delivered, along with some full roller bearings from George.  Got all that in easy enough Saturday morning, new tensioners too. 

Rings should be delivered today, deglazed and cleaned the cylinders last weekend, coated the bores with oil after washing.  Got the carbon off the pistons.  Will clean the cylinders again before I set them.  Got the cylinder base o-rings and gaskets thru the rockers.   

Hope to have the heads back sometime next week.   

[chaos901]

The new rings came, there were MAHLE rings for a 4" bore but the thickness was wrong, should have known better.  So I got new OEM pistons and rings.  Considered the S & S pistons but decided against after some consultations.  Did not hear anything bad about them, just did not want that big a jump in compression. 

Only lost one finger installing the circlips.     

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[rigidthumper]

I didn't see it in your posts- did you get Cometic .030" head gaskets? 

[chaos901]

I didn't see it in your posts- did you get Cometic .030" head gaskets?

I did not, I have new OEM head gaskets.  Never opposed to more education, what would be the overall benefit? 

[kd]

Better control of detonation (pinging is reduced).

[rigidthumper]

Changing from the stock head gasket (.045"-.052" compressed) to the Cometic .030" unit will result in a slight bump in compression (will take you from 9.2:1 to 9.56:1), which typically results in a slight bump in efficiency, TQ, & HP.

[chaos901]

Interesting.....will certainly consider. 

EDIT: Got some coming.

[sfmichael]

Interesting.....will certainly consider. 

EDIT: Got some coming.

   

[chaos901]

Drove back and forth to Chicago yesterday and picked up my heads.  The "after" pictures are a whole prettier than the the "before". 

[chaos901]

Got it all together.  First time I reused the OEM pushrods, started it up but shut it down within about 20 seconds.  Had oil pressure but did not like a noise.  Took it back down to pull the heads to make sure a valve was not hitting a piston, was not.  Put it back together but this time I used adjustable pushrods.   

Tuned at the local H-D Dealer with Power Vision, the SERT that came with the bike was corrupted.  Pick it up this afternoon.