Can't find neutral while engine running

[Toomuchstuff]

So I just finished putting a rebuilt evo motor in my custom softail.   I took it out for a first ride today but was having trouble finding neutral.   Shifting overall required more effort than I think it should have but I am unable to get into neutral.   As soon as I shut the engine off, i can pop it right in neutral. 
I adjusted the clutch cable and pushrod as well as checked the primary chain tension several times.   

Any ideas on what I am missing or not thinking of?

[xlfan]

Too much fluid stuff in primary?

How much and what kind are you using?

[Toomuchstuff]

The primary was dry so I put in a quart of dextron type atf.  The level seems to be about an inch below the primary adjustment plate opening. 

[jsachs1]

There is an adjustment on the left side of the trans. case, nut and stud, that you make with the trans. in 3rd gear. If that was disturbed, or any work done in the trans.  , you may need to re-adjust it.
John

[JW113]

What year Evo? I just went through this myself, can read all about it in the General section. I have a '92 with a '98/later clutch and primary housings. I had also dumped in a quart of fluid. That is too much for a '98/later. 24oz is the correct amount. You need to pull the derby cover and look where the fluid level is on the clutch basket. If the fluid is higher than the bottom of the clutch basked with the bike sitting upright, it's too full and guaranteed to drag as you are describing.

-JW

[thumper 823]

First off it is an art, serious.
If your clutch is slightly warped, slight dragging most people will pop it in neutral just as they stop.
Aftermarket clutches belt drives etc solves this congenital problem.

But I guess I should have said in the beginning -make sure your clutch is properly adjusted

[Hossamania]

How old is the cable, make sure it is not collapsing. Stainless braid is much less prone to that.
Check your throw out travel.

[FSG]

custom softail

OK what gearbox is in the thing ?

[Toomuchstuff]

The bike is a custom.  Its titled as a 2000 but I don't know what year lots of the parts are.   It's a harley 5 speed but not sure what year primary is on it.   I drained out the primary bnb oil and put in 24 oz.  It didnt change.  I ma wondering if it has aftermarket clutch plates that doesn't work well with atf. 

Thanks for all the great responses so far. 

[xlfan]

Do check the shifter adjustment as mentioned above!

And make sure the oil level is below clutch basket when straight up.

[Toomuchstuff]

I didnt check the shifter adjustment yet.  Do I have to pull the primary to do that?

[xlfan]

No

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Sounds like a little clutch adjustment, and you should be good.

[xlfan]

How did you adjust the cable slack and pushrod?

[Toomuchstuff]

I did the adjustment by the book.  I slacked the cable, turned the adjuster in until i felt a little resistance then backed off a half turn.   Then locked the locknut and adjusted the cable to a few millimeters of freeplay. 

[Hossamania]

Try adjusting again. Adjust with the drivetrain cold. I like to "bounce" the pushrod a few times before doing final set. Make sure the rod isn't moving out of adjustment when locking the nut.
How old is the cable? Make sure the clutch handle is all the way out when adjusting the rod.

[Racepres]

I did the adjustment by the book.  I slacked the cable, turned the adjuster in until i felt a little resistance then backed off a half turn.   Then locked the locknut and adjusted the cable to a few millimeters of freeplay.

That is Not correct for the Most Part...
First and foremost... where does the Cable go ? to a lever or straight into the Cover??

[Toomuchstuff]

I did the adjustment by the book.  I slacked the cable, turned the adjuster in until i felt a little resistance then backed off a half turn.   Then locked the locknut and adjusted the cable to a few millimeters of freeplay.

That is Not correct for the Most Part...
First and foremost... where does the Cable go ? to a lever or straight into the Cover??

I don't understand the question.  I measured the freeplay in the cable by pulling the cable housing away from the mount.  The gap is about the thickness of a nickel. 

[Racepres]

I did the adjustment by the book.  I slacked the cable, turned the adjuster in until i felt a little resistance then backed off a half turn.   Then locked the locknut and adjusted the cable to a few millimeters of freeplay.

That is Not correct for the Most Part...
First and foremost... where does the Cable go ? to a lever or straight into the Cover??

I don't understand the question.  I measured the freeplay in the cable by pulling the cable housing away from the mount.  The gap is about the thickness of a nickel.

At what point??? with Ball and ramp, I set Cable freeplay at ramp engagement... with the lever [older] type... the Lever position must be established first out of the box, so the throwout "fingers" are in the Correct orientation...
the Service manual directions Must Match the Trans/clutch being adjusted...
again
where does the Cable go ? to a lever or straight into the Cover??

[Hossamania]

To b clear, Racepres is asking where the cable engages on the transmission.

[Toomuchstuff]

To b clear, Racepres is asking where the cable engages on the transmission.

Thanks.  I understand now.  The cable goes into the cover.  There is no lever.

I never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed

[Hossamania]

So back to my original question, how old is the cable?
I also had problems with grooves being worn into the hub and basket from the plates and steels, this caused my clutch to drag.

[Racepres]

To b clear, Racepres is asking where the cable engages on the transmission.

Thanks.  I understand now.  The cable goes into the cover.  There is no lever.

I never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed

Ball and ramp..
Loosen Cable all the way.. adjust the Ball and ramp such that the clutch is disengaged, ... set cable play,
then adjust Ball and ramp.. slightly off Contact...

[Hossamania]

Interesting, I do the opposite. Loosen cable all the way, set the pushrod 1/2 to 3/4 turn, then set cable play.

[Racepres]

Interesting, I do the opposite. Loosen cable all the way, set the pushrod 1/2 to 3/4 turn, then set cable play.

Think very carefully about What you are trying to accomplish... Try it... you'll like it..
Only on Ball and Ramp Set-up...

[thumper 823]

I have not ever owned a twink or newer- But just for conversation-I have not ever been on an Evo or shovel that just clicked in and out of natural.
Well, out of Neutral into first or second but, Not the other way.
Sitting still and finding neutral is part of the HD legacy,  balky to say the least.

I guess my experience is different than most of you guys.

[Hossamania]

Even set at its best, I usually need to rev the motor a bit in order to find neutral with the clutch pulled in.

Interesting, I do the opposite. Loosen cable all the way, set the pushrod 1/2 to 3/4 turn, then set cable play.

Think very carefully about What you are trying to accomplish... Try it... you'll like it..
Only on Ball and Ramp Set-up...

I will have to give it a try.

[Toomuchstuff]

I had a spare clutch cable so I changed it out.   I adjusted the clutch rod and cable and took the bike for a ride.   The clutch drag is worse than before.   The bike will idle at 1 mph with the clutch pulled all the way in.   

I tried to set the rod depth 3/4 turn out from the stopping point this try.   Is it possible that I am hitting a false stop point and not screwing the rod in enough in order to disengage the clutch fully?

[Hossamania]

Try readjusting it again now that it has been ridden. Again, how old are these cables?
Yes, it is possible you are getting a false adjustment, that is why I like to bounce the pushrod off the bottom a few times to try and get the ramp completely set at its base spot, even overtightening it a bit, loosen, bounce, then set.

[Racepres]

I have not ever owned a twink or newer- But just for conversation-I have not ever been on an Evo or shovel that just clicked in and out of natural.
Well, out of Neutral into first or second but, Not the other way.
Sitting still and finding neutral is part of the HD legacy,  balky to say the least.

I guess my experience is different than most of you guys.

A Shovel Clutch can be made to work very well indeed.. won't be "as stock" tho..or replace with something like the Pro Clutch... No more Neutral Problems.
I have Poor Luck with the '84 thru??? maybe '88 Clutch... That one just Sucks!!
the post '94 Clutch is a very good one IMO... In Between.. well again... gotta have the cable loose... gotta twist ramp adjustment until Balls are Seated and the clutch begins to Disengage.. then adjust freeplay... don't need much... then adjust ball/ramp adjustment to just shy of "Bumping"...

I had a spare clutch cable so I changed it out.   I adjusted the clutch rod and cable and took the bike for a ride.   The clutch drag is worse than before.   The bike will idle at 1 mph with the clutch pulled all the way in.   

I tried to set the rod depth 3/4 turn out from the stopping point this try.   Is it possible that I am hitting a false stop point and not screwing the rod in enough in order to disengage the clutch fully?

I know nothing of 3/4 of a turn... never did anything like that... Not Going to..
See above!!!

[Julio]

I had a spare clutch cable so I changed it out.   I adjusted the clutch rod and cable and took the bike for a ride.   The clutch drag is worse than before.   The bike will idle at 1 mph with the clutch pulled all the way in.   

I tried to set the rod depth 3/4 turn out from the stopping point this try.   Is it possible that I am hitting a false stop point and not screwing the rod in enough in order to disengage the clutch fully?

If you've checked and made sure all the other adjustments are correct, check your spring plate with a straight edge. It should be straight across. If it isn't, you'll have to remove it and place it on the right spot. I think there's like 3 or 4 different adjustments on the pressure plate.

[cheech]

If you've checked and made sure all the other adjustments are correct, check your spring plate with a straight edge. It should be straight across. If it isn't, you'll have to remove it and place it on the right spot. I think there's like 3 or 4 different adjustments on the pressure plate.

If you don't mind give us a SM reference with this right spot and the "adjustments" you speak of?

Toomuchstuff, you'd advance your cause and this thread if you pulled your derby cover to get a picture of your clutch assembly and shared it here.
Disregarding the dry clutch in the early FXST, which I doubt you have, there are 3 variations of clutches in EVO's.
Only one has a so called spring plate, none as far as I know have a "right spot", Or  3 or 4 adjustments on the pressure plate.
Adjustable pushrod screw? Yes

[remington007]

Post up a pic of the clutch in question, they each have there own issues. As posted earlier there are 3 different evo clutches.

[Deye76]

"I know nothing of 3/4 of a turn."
Manual reads 1/2 to one turn.
After adjusting the clutch push rod, squeeze the clutch lever (handlebar) 3 times to set the ball/ramp, then adjust cable. 
FWIW, Best thing I did on my 92' FXR was go to a 98'-06' assy. Have to change the starter ring gear, finding neutral from a stop is easy, holds 130 tq. The 92' assy. with a new extra plate clutch slipped badly.

[Toomuchstuff]

Post up a pic of the clutch in question, they each have there own issues. As posted earlier there are 3 different evo clutches.

[attach=0,msg1353955]   

I just took the bike for another ride.   It changes gears ok with a bit of effort but not terrible and the clutch doesn't seem to be dragging anymore.  But still really difficult to find neutral. 

[remington007]

That is a 98 up style clutch. The steel plates could be warped or i have seen some aftermarket fibers cause clutch drag and neutral issues. I have had to take out new clutch sets for this same reason.

[Dan89flstc]

If you've checked and made sure all the other adjustments are correct, check your spring plate with a straight edge. It should be straight across. If it isn't, you'll have to remove it and place it on the right spot. I think there's like 3 or 4 different adjustments on the pressure plate.

This is the diaphragm spring adjustment procedure for an `89 or earlier diaphragm clutch.

[JW113]

One more time....

Go look at General / Overfill Primary. I just went through this same crap. I put a quart in, it soaked the clutch plates. I drained the oil, put in 24oz. I did not help at all. I pulled the primary, took the clutch apart, cleaned the plates in solvent, put all back together with 24oz of oil. Boom! Clutch works perfectly now.

You need to try the same, I would bet a nickel it will fix it.

-JW

[Toomuchstuff]

One more time....

Go look at General / Overfill Primary. I just went through this same crap. I put a quart in, it soaked the clutch plates. I drained the oil, put in 24oz. I did not help at all. I pulled the primary, took the clutch apart, cleaned the plates in solvent, put all back together with 24oz of oil. Boom! Clutch works perfectly now.

You need to try the same, I would bet a nickel it will fix it.

-JW

I am going to try this.  I am thinking that when i overfilled it with ATF which contains friction modifiers, that some of it may have gotten on the clutch plates.

I ordered a new shifter bushing since mine was worn.  When that comes in, i will pull the clutch plates and clean them. 

Since I dont know what kind of clutch plates are in there, i will probably refill the primary with oil instead of ATF and use the correct amount this time.

Thanks for everyone's help and I will update this post once I try this.

[Deye76]

Nothing wrong with ATF. Automatic transmissions are full of plates etc. Motor oil will be worse on your clutch plates.

[FSG]

titled as a 2000 but I don't know what year lots of the parts are.   It's a harley 5 speed but not sure what year primary is on it. 

OK  you changed the clutch cable with a spare, how old is the spare, is it used or new, when you had the side cover off for the cable change  did you happen to notice what deg the ramps are as HD has a few different angles and there was a set of 15Degs that were used in the '90s

does it have one of those silly easy clutch do-dahs in there ?

it'd be worth knowing what ramps are in there

yes 98 up basket, fingers may be grooves and causing problems with the plate seperation

any adjustment left in the mid clutch cable adjustment or is it perhaps maxed out, perhaps a pic or three   

[Julio]

If you've checked and made sure all the other adjustments are correct, check your spring plate with a straight edge. It should be straight across. If it isn't, you'll have to remove it and place it on the right spot. I think there's like 3 or 4 different adjustments on the pressure plate.

This is the diaphragm spring adjustment procedure for an `89 or earlier diaphragm clutch.

That's right.
Now that the OP has posted a pic of his clutch, we can rule that out.

[FSG]

Nothing wrong with ATF. Automatic transmissions are full of plates etc. Motor oil will be worse on your clutch plates.

    x 1000

[Hossamania]

See, piece of cake to figure out!

[Toomuchstuff]

Nothing wrong with ATF. Automatic transmissions are full of plates etc. Motor oil will be worse on your clutch plates.

I usually use ATF in the primaries of my bikes.  I have it in 2 other bikes now.  But i am thinking that I overfilled the primary with AFT and it sat for about 2 months that way. So the part of the clutch plates that were soaked in ATF during that time may have a different grip or friction coefficient than the portion that wasnt. 

[Toomuchstuff]

titled as a 2000 but I don't know what year lots of the parts are.   It's a harley 5 speed but not sure what year primary is on it. 

OK  you changed the clutch cable with a spare, how old is the spare, is it used or new, when you had the side cover off for the cable change  did you happen to notice what deg the ramps are as HD has a few different angles and there was a set of 15Degs that were used in the '90s

does it have one of those silly easy clutch do-dahs in there ?

it'd be worth knowing what ramps are in there

yes 98 up basket, fingers may be grooves and causing problems with the plate seperation

any adjustment left in the mid clutch cable adjustment or is it perhaps maxed out, perhaps a pic or three   

The clutch cable i installed wasnt new but it was in good shape and worked well when i took it off.   I had the ramps out when i changed the cable but didnt pay much attention to the ramp angle.  And there was no easy clutch pull device installed.
I will check the fingers for grooves and the plates for flatness when i pull it apart.
Thanks

[FSG]

didnt pay much attention to the ramp angle

if you get the opportunity take a look, 15 deg ramps were/are a pain, I took them out of my Evo Tourer a long time ago

cables can look/feel/operate well when unhooked/removed but the outer jacket may collapse some when in operation and in doing so you lose plate separation

best way to tell is to slack the able then wind in the adjuster till you see plate separation,
then remove the slack from the cable,

then operate the clutch lever, any significant movement is a good indicator of the outer clutch cable jacket collapsing

[JW113]

then operate the clutch lever, any significant movement is a good indicator of the outer clutch cable jacket collapsing

Can you expound on that a little? If you adjust as you've described, then watch where that red arrow is pointed and operate the clutch, it is definitely going to move outward significantly, no? Or are you saying it will move out, then start moving back in as you hold the clutch lever steady?

-JW

[cheech]

If you've checked and made sure all the other adjustments are correct, check your spring plate with a straight edge. It should be straight across. If it isn't, you'll have to remove it and place it on the right spot. I think there's like 3 or 4 different adjustments on the pressure plate.

This is the diaphragm spring adjustment procedure for an `89 or earlier diaphragm clutch.

  Right, the straight edge against the diaphragm spring, then the adjuster plate, not the pressure plate, has 3 different depths.
Saying spring plate alludes to the 90 to 97 clutch. If in fact he did have one.

[JW113]

It appears to be the '98 to '06 clutch. Hence the problem with overfilling the primary to pre '98 specs.

-JW

[Racepres]

It appears to be the '98 to '06 clutch. Hence the problem with overfilling the primary to pre '98 specs.

-JW

Difficult to Fix... when we don't know what the hell it is...
Huh?
I'm gonna learn to "Pass" on some more of these...

[FSG]

 

then operate the clutch lever, any significant movement is a good indicator of the outer clutch cable jacket collapsing

Can you expound on that a little? If you adjust as you've described, then watch where that red arrow is pointed and operate the clutch, it is definitely going to move outward significantly, no? Or are you saying it will move out, then start moving back in as you hold the clutch lever steady?

-JW

no, if you were to screw the adjuster in all the way so that the clutch plates separated and there was no further travel available with the ramps in their home position ....

then the clutch lever wouldn't be able to pull the cable and rotate the inner ramp

so if there is movement of the clutch lever in this condition then it's a good indicator of the cables outer cable collapsing

?  or have I just made it worse/harder to understand   

[attach=0,msg1354198]

 

[Scotty]

no, if you were to screw the adjuster in all the way so that the clutch plates separated and there was no further travel available with the ramps in their home position ....
then the clutch lever wouldn't be able to pull the cable and rotate the inner ramp
so if there is movement of the clutch lever in this condition then it's a good indicator of the cables outer cable collapsing
?  or have I just made it worse/harder to understand   

I think once you read it 4 times it makes sense...........3 times was not enough 
You are correct though.

[Racepres]

And take FSG's tutorial one step farther, and you see that this is the very Best time to set lever free play!!!!

[JW113]

OK, I get it now. Bottom the clutch diaphragm with adjuster screw, take the slack out of the cable, then pull the lever. The lever should be rock solid, if not, cable jacket is stretching. (I think I got a little lost in the Australian to American translation of the world "collapsed")

I've never thought of that before, and have put an awful lot of miles/pulls in the big city on clutch cables. Will indeed check that out. Thanks!

-JW

[david lee]

OK, I get it now. Bottom the clutch diaphragm with adjuster screw, take the slack out of the cable, then pull the lever. The lever should be rock solid, if not, cable jacket is stretching. (I think I got a little lost in the Australian to American translation of the world "collapsed")

I've never thought of that before, and have put an awful lot of miles/pulls in the big city on clutch cables. Will indeed check that out. Thanks!

-JW

us bloody australians. we dont have gasoline here only petrol

[FSG]

The lever should be rock solid, if not, cable jacket is stretching collapsing/compressing.

   

[Deye76]

"us bloody australians. Australians."
We love you, no matter what you call,....anything. FSG more help, without chest pumping than anyone, ever.

[JW113]

I'll drink to that!


I just need to brush up on my Australianese.



-JW

[Toomuchstuff]

So I re-adjusted my clutch pushrod without slackening the cable first. Then i adjusted the slack out of the cable. 
I also changed my shifter bushing so my shifter doesnt wobble any more.

I dont know which one it was or maybe a combination of both, but the bike shifts fine with no more clutch drag and i can actually find neutral.
It does help to blip the throttle a little when shifting into neutral but that did not help before.

Thanks to everyone for all the help and great info.