Some help with build details 98”

[C-Cat]

At 10 8:1 9B isn't a good fit. Woods 8 for all around curve. TMan 590 will get it done mid and top of the curve.

[harpwrench]

I don't always have 91 available. Like the last trip the station we stopped at was out of 91 next station only had 87 so a tank full went in and the next station was 60 miles away. Never two up and I'm about 220lbs.


would like to know yours thoughts

My thoughts

Don't overdo it with ccp, I live in joe lyons area too so I understand the fuel factor and what impact it'll have on your spark advance tables

I run a mackie 598 at 10.8 and love it. S&s hp103 would be another that I'd look at. Just my thoughts:)

[838]

Did you decide on the 590? What else will you be doing to this 98"?

I haven't settled on a cam yet, I have a list may end up throwing a dart everyone involved has a different cam recommendation that leaves me scratching my head a bit on it.
build details are

55/58 the
10cc dome pistons 3.937
Heads 1.9 intake 1.61 exhaust
10.8 compression
Super meg exhaust
Tune at powerhouse dyno
Stock 05 Dyna gearing

Let the guy who ported your heads and/or the dyno operator who will be tuning the build help you with cam  selection based on the rest of your parts and what they have seen work best in the past. And let us know what they say

[tdrglide]

I ran the old Tman 590 at a little over 10.5:1. in a 110 for a long time. Was a great touring cam. But 10.8:1 is pushing it to TR's limit, tho he likes to push it a bit Gotta think about possible gas and high air temps. My personal experience experience with the Mackie 598 is it likes higher compression like 11:1, and a bigger motor.

[kd]

Did you decide on the 590? What else will you be doing to this 98"?

I haven't settled on a cam yet, I have a list may end up throwing a dart everyone involved has a different cam recommendation that leaves me scratching my head a bit on it.
build details are

55/58 the
10cc dome pistons 3.937
Heads 1.9 intake 1.61 exhaust
10.8 compression
Super meg exhaust
Tune at powerhouse dyno
Stock 05 Dyna gearing

Let the guy who ported your heads and/or the dyno operator who will be tuning the build help you with cam  selection based on the rest of your parts and what they have seen work best in the past. And let us know what they say

Depending on who the head guy and tuner is, this is good advice on where to get good information.

[Johnwesley]

Did you decide on the 590? What else will you be doing to this 98"?

I haven't settled on a cam yet, I have a list may end up throwing a dart everyone involved has a different cam recommendation that leaves me scratching my head a bit on it.
build details are

55/58 the
10cc dome pistons 3.937
Heads 1.9 intake 1.61 exhaust
10.8 compression
Super meg exhaust
Tune at powerhouse dyno
Stock 05 Dyna gearing

Let the guy who ported your heads and/or the dyno operator who will be tuning the build help you with cam  selection based on the rest of your parts and what they have seen work best in the past. And let us know what they say

Well for the record the head porter recommends 585 and the tuner recommends s&s 625. The tuner showed some dyno runs of 98" bikes and the 625 Joe also though the hp103 would be worth a look as an in between cam from the 585 and 625. The timing on the ho103 is unlike any other cam s&s makes. I've heard good things about it though.

Another cam there is not a lot of info on is the Rivas 584 26/46 50/22 which has the same timing on the intake as the 9b with +4  and looks similar to the 999-6a cam with a little different exhaust timing. Very similar to the rs577 as well. That has more overlap than the other cams recommended at 48*

[Coff 06]

I run my 9B with a +4* @11.4/1......image that           Coff 06

[Don D]

I am amazed at the conviction people have while comparing these cams and the have no idea what the seat to seat duration is. No offense intended, just an observation. Flipping around brands such as Woods, S&S, Rivas and others. The lobes can resemble industrial engine ramps or super stock NHRA cam lobes or anything in between. Ever wonder about disparities in the compression calculations? This is part of the story why.

[C-Cat]

I think most are going by personal experience with cams they've run, as I was.

[Johnwesley]

I am amazed at the conviction people have while comparing these cams and the have no idea what the seat to seat duration is. No offense intended, just an observation. Flipping around brands such as Woods, S&S, Rivas and others. The lobes can resemble industrial engine ramps or super stock NHRA cam lobes or anything in between. Ever wonder about disparities in the compression calculations? This is part of the story why.

A lot different but not something that is available to the public. Seat to seat will tell a different story for sure. How is one to find out that info unless it's available to the general pubic? I for one am all ears if anyone is willing to talk that out.

It would be nice to know for example Is a 585 ramp is so gentle that the ccp is lower than one would expect. On my numbers it shows 204ccp which maybe a concern for that tank of 87, but if it comes in closer to 198 then that makes the build seem easier for that cross country trip.

[Don D]

Its a great question John. Yesterday I was asked about Harleys 267 cam. I had known of only a few that have run them and they must have fast ramps because they complained they were noisy. The person I had the discussion with said without a cam doctor how would we know? I said set the cam up between centers in a lathe with a good digital travel indicator, Mitutoyo my choice, on the tool post and plot the lift curve. Use a degree wheel to be able to know the degree increments. You will not know the cams timing, lobe centers, but you can plot the profile of the lobe at increments you decide. So we will do this and compare it to the 266 which he runs already. I realize this does not fill in all the blanks but it sure would tell the story how a Woods 8 compared to an Andrews TW55 has 36° VS 42° overlap with nearly identical .053 lift timing numbers. 

[Hossamania]

Ooh, you mentioned my cam, the Andrews 55! I have a lot of fun with them. What would be the difference in performance, or maybe the question is, in riding characteristics between the 55 and the 8? And, would the heads be set up differently for each?

[Don D]

What is your tolerance for noise? We are comparing extremes. Andrews older lobes VS woods older lobes.

[kd]

Its a great question John. Yesterday I was asked about Harleys 267 cam. I had known of only a few that have run them and they must have fast ramps because they complained they were noisy. The person I had the discussion with said without a cam doctor how would we know? I said set the cam up between centers in a lathe with a good digital travel indicator, Mitutoyo my choice, on the tool post and plot the lift curve. Use a degree wheel to be able to know the degree increments. You will not know the cams timing, lobe centers, but you can plot the profile of the lobe at increments you decide. So we will do this and compare it to the 266 which he runs already. I realize this does not fill in all the blanks but it sure would tell the story how a Woods 8 compared to an Andrews TW55 has 36° VS 42° overlap with nearly identical .053 lift timing numbers.

Don, IMO the problem I see is that method requires at least access (if not outright ownership) of all of those cams you would be comparing.  That would be prohibitive.  I believe that is why most that are investigating cam choices (myself included) default to dyno graphs.  The trick there is to recognize the supporting components like TB, valve size, porting / flow characteristics, compression, exhaust (and even gearing) and the total influence or differences these things bring to the table.

[Ohio HD]

If you know the TDC lift, you now have a relatively close starting point to understand where the lobe is with the crankshaft rotation / piston height from that point forward. You can get a very good idea as to what is going on before you even put them in a motor. These are TTS-150's.


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[Ohio HD]

Its a great question John. Yesterday I was asked about Harleys 267 cam. I had known of only a few that have run them and they must have fast ramps because they complained they were noisy. The person I had the discussion with said without a cam doctor how would we know? I said set the cam up between centers in a lathe with a good digital travel indicator, Mitutoyo my choice, on the tool post and plot the lift curve. Use a degree wheel to be able to know the degree increments. You will not know the cams timing, lobe centers, but you can plot the profile of the lobe at increments you decide. So we will do this and compare it to the 266 which he runs already. I realize this does not fill in all the blanks but it sure would tell the story how a Woods 8 compared to an Andrews TW55 has 36° VS 42° overlap with nearly identical .053 lift timing numbers.

Don, IMO the problem I see is that method requires at least access (if not outright ownership) of all of those cams you would be comparing.  That would be prohibitive.  I believe that is why most that are investigating cam choices (myself included) default to dyno graphs.  The trick there is to recognize the supporting components like TB, valve size, porting / flow characteristics, compression, exhaust (and even gearing) and the total influence or differences these things bring to the table.

 

[Don D]

On a humorous note but a bit true with all the cam wars and competition for "best cam" there ends up being a lot of cams in the mechanics bottom drawers with the fuel packs and DFOs or on Ebay.

But seriously I agree with you up to a point.

Same logic applies however. The testing must be done on the same dyno with weather conditions close to the same. This also provides a direct connection to the heads and their porting / flow characteristics. Valve sizes are just numbers out of the context of the rest. Dynos well there is no nationally recognized organization that publishes a calibration standard or even agreement of the type of dyno that is acceptable just the correction factor. The baro and temperature is compensated but relative humidity is not. So we have a defacto standard of sorts, dynojet 250I correction factor SAE software??.

[Don D]

If you know the TDC lift, you now have a relatively close starting point to understand where the lobe is with the crankshaft rotation / piston height from that point forward. You can get a very good idea as to what is going on before you even put them in a motor. These are TTS-150's.


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Good point

[Hossamania]

What is your tolerance for noise? We are comparing extremes. Andrews older lobes VS woods older lobes.

My tolerance for noise is pretty high. I'm running gear drive 55s from 2005, synthetic oil (Mobile V-Twin 20w-50, one of the noisier oils), it sounds like the oil was drained out about 200 miles ago when it gets hot, clattering away. Don't care, I know it's holding together fine. So I'm more interested in different riding characteristics of cams, more than actual Dyno numbers. The 55s are not that impressivee on the Dyno, and ridden improperly on the road (like a stock cam) are not earth shattering, but get them into the power band above 3500 and they wake right but up, my kind of riding style on this bike. These were recommended by my Porter, and they are exactly what I was looking for.
Just wondering how the 8 would change the riding style.

[Don D]

It will add torque and horsepower. Not a lot but noticeable. It likes ~10.8:1 and it will be noisy. In a few minutes we will have the "set the lifters to .140" preload crew chiming I'm sure saying it cures the noise. It does not. The birth of the TR590 was a noise reduced version of this similar cam.

[Rsw]

Running gear drive 8's in my 110 with S&S premium lifters very quiet setup. Guess I'm lucky as most say the 8's are very loud

[harpwrench]

A big piece of the puzzle is the pipe, cams are given way too much credit for good or bad behavior when it's actually about how they play together

[wfolarry]

Take it from somebody that owns a cam test stand. Even with a dial indicator you're still not going to be able to measure a cam accurately for the kind of information you're looking for. You'll have a better idea of what is going on but you will still need to test it in your bike to know for sure. It's the same with exhausts. One works better than another with different combinations. Throttle bodies same thing. That's why you see different kits or combinations. They're trying to eliminate the guesswork.
On a side note I've seen some combinations that i swore would never work that made some big power. I've also seen some that promise big power that were total duds. That's why your dyno tuner can be your best friend. They see so many different combos that they're probably the best source for information if you're trying something new.
Or if they want you to try something different & it doesn't work out you get free dyno time. 

[Ohio HD]

Agree Larry, everything must work in concert to get the best or desired results. All data that you can collect helps to recreate with some degree of confidence (luck?) with other combinations.

I've had a few that came out better than expected, and then also that didn't do what I expected. Math makes it all work. In lack of the upper end math skills to resolve all of the needed equations, we collect as much data as we can. Try to make some sense of it. 

[Johnwesley]

Part are coming together, with this covid mess lots of stuff in back order. Heads should be in from Illinois sometime next week.