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Build progress and pushrod question

Started by Adam76, August 19, 2020, 06:38:38 AM

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Adam76

August 19, 2020, 06:38:38 AM Last Edit: August 19, 2020, 06:43:28 AM by Adam76
Thanks for all the help I've had so far in my top end build on the '96 heritage softail.

Build so far:
EV27 cam
Inner bearing
New oil pump pinion drive shaft gear
New metal breather gear
Barrels bored and honed for 9.5 KB forged pistons.
Heads cleaned up + 3 angle valve job and 10 thou taken off when facing them.
8 thou taken of bases of jugs to get me 32 squish with .030 HG.
New lifters of course.

My question is that when I removed the adjustable pushrods that were already in there, and pulled out the ev46 cam,  I wasn't sure if the pushrods were straight and true and able to be reused?

I did the rolling on the flat glass test, but all I could see that was possibly not right was that 2 of the 4 PRs possibly didn't run completely smoothly along the glass - they had a very slight tap tap tap kind of sound as they rolled. I Couldn't see any bowing with the naked  eye? Don't have any proper told to test for straighteness...

Should I just replace them for good insurance? Or am I being way too anal as they only have probably 20alK max miles on them when the ev46 was installed by previous owner...... I'm looking at a set of S&S adjustables chrome moly but they are all $$$.

What do you guys think?

motorhogman

If it were me... and I realize it's not but after all that work and a questionable pair of push rods I'm changing them...
where's the points and condenser ?<br />Tom / aka motor

Adam76

Quote from: motorhogman on August 19, 2020, 06:41:53 AM
If it were me... and I realize it's not but after all that work and a questionable pair of push rods I'm changing them...

Thanks motorhogman, that's what I'm trying to get at. With my limited experience, I can't tell what a good pushrods and a questionable pushrods are supposed to be like? Or how to really know other than a professional shop charging me to test their run out with a dial on a lathe.

They have no real obvious bend, but that doesn't mean anything, right?
Cheers

rigidthumper

All it has to do is transfer the pressure, and oil, from the lifter, to the rocker arm- if there's no visible bend, and you can blow air through them, they're fine.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

kd

You can set a variable speed drill with a good chuck up in a vise and check them from both ends if you want also.

Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket.  This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled.   That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep.  That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider.  Adjustables give you control of that dimension.
KD

Adam76

Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 07:20:20 AM
You can set a variable speed drill with a good chuck up in a vise and check them from both ends if you want also.

Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket.  This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled.   That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep.  That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider.  Adjustables give you control of that dimension.

Thanks kd, yes I briefly tried the drill method and I don't trust the chuck in my drill as any measure of testing pushrods straighteness 😬

The pushrods I'm taking about in this post are adjustables (not stock) so if I was to replace them I would be replacing adjustables for new adjustables..... Just don't have any experience in looking at pushrods and knowing when they're no longer in great shape and it's time to replace them?
Cheers

Adam76

August 19, 2020, 03:26:50 PM #6 Last Edit: August 19, 2020, 05:19:10 PM by Adam76
Quote from: rigidthumper on August 19, 2020, 07:15:14 AM
All it has to do is transfer the pressure, and oil, from the lifter, to the rocker arm- if there's no visible bend, and you can blow air through them, they're fine.
Thanks rigidthumper, yes there's no obvious bend to the eye, even only the slightest bend visible when I put them up against a straight edge....

I can blow a little slow amount of air through, so they are not blocked
Thanks

MikeL

I usually roll the push rods on my handy lift. If their bent you will know. As far as tip wear they look well broken in and will perform. I prefer solid more so than adjustable push rods and going down an extra .032 should be no problem and what was said could be a benefit.


                                                                                                                                                                    MIKE

Hossamania

Put them against the straight edge, then rotate them 180° and measure again. If bent, there will be a gap in the middle on one side, and bend away at the tips on the other side. You can basically measure "four" sides to check for true. If you can't really tell if there is a difference, you should be good to go.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Adam76

Quote from: MikeL on August 19, 2020, 04:05:27 PM
I usually roll the push rods on my handy lift. If their bent you will know. As far as tip wear they look well broken in and will perform. I prefer solid more so than adjustable push rods and going down an extra .032 should be no problem and what was said could be a benefit.


                                                                                                                                                                    MIKE
Thanks Mike.  By 32 you mean 32 flats extra turns?

Adam76

August 19, 2020, 04:38:25 PM #10 Last Edit: August 19, 2020, 04:44:02 PM by Adam76
Quote from: Hossamania on August 19, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Put them against the straight edge, then rotate them 180° and measure again. If bent, there will be a gap in the middle on one side, and bend away at the tips on the other side. You can basically measure "four" sides to check for true. If you can't really tell if there is a difference, you should be good to go.

Hey Hoss, thanks for the reply.

On two of them up against a straight edge I can see the slightest bit of daylight on one side as the pushrods lean out a fraction.... How much is too much if I measure with feeler gauge, 5 thou? 

Thanks

Hossamania

I am the wrong one to ask of actual technical questions like that.
Have you measured it yet?
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Adam76

Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 07:20:20 AM

Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket.  This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled.   That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep.  That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider. 

Thanks kd, are you saying it is an option to go back to the stock  oem PRs?   Or are you referring to actual aftermarket solid PRs?

Thanks

Hossamania

Ideally, you'd want to assemble it, measure it, and have custom pushrods made. But you have a mild build, and adjustable rods will be fine. For reference, I have a 95" twin cam motor with head work and a higher lift cam, and I've been running adjustable pushrods for 90,000 miles with no problems, the rods have never been readjusted, and this motor gets hell beat out of it (literally run to redline thousands of times). I doubt you'll have any problems with yours.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

kd

Quote from: Adam76 on August 19, 2020, 05:21:48 PM
Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 07:20:20 AM

Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket.  This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled.   That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep.  That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider. 

Thanks kd, are you saying it is an option to go back to the stock  oem PRs?   Or are you referring to actual aftermarket solid PRs?

Thanks

Adam, I missed that you had adjustables in there and that's what you were checking for true.  You are right that I was assuming you were using the OEM one piece pushrods.  They typically will be at .100 depth and the .032 would not be a problem as long as the cam base circle is the same as OEM and you did not have previous machine work that would be in addition to the .032 from this round of work performed.  As Hoss said, checking on assembly is a must.  Adjustables do take the guess work out if you use the proper adjustment procedure.

I think you will find most adjustables to have some deflection by the nature of the threaded insert.  If the shaft is straight that's all you can do.  Were they a problem before you removed them?. 
KD

Adam76

Thanks Hoss, probably be fine like you said. 
Just thought I'd check.  😬

Cheers.

Adam76

Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 06:06:14 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on August 19, 2020, 05:21:48 PM
Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 07:20:20 AM

Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket.  This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled.   That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep.  That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider. 

Thanks kd, are you saying it is an option to go back to the stock  oem PRs?   Or are you referring to actual aftermarket solid PRs?

Thanks

Adam, I missed that you had adjustables in there and that's what you were checking for true.  You are right that I was assuming you were using the OEM one piece pushrods.  They typically will be at .100 depth and the .032 would not be a problem as long as the cam base circle is the same as OEM and you did not have previous machine work that would be in addition to the .032 from this round of work performed.  As Hoss said, checking on assembly is a must.  Adjustables do take the guess work out if you use the proper adjustment procedure.

I think you will find most adjustables to have some deflection by the nature of the threaded insert.  If the shaft is straight that's all you can do.  Were they a problem before you removed them?.

Thanks again kd,  no problem before I removed them, but then again I only rode the bike 25 miles home before stripping it down haha 😂

JW113

I would put it in the category of "it ain't a problem until it's a problem". Run what ya got, if (that's a BIG IF) it becomes an issue, fix it.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Adam76

Quote from: JW113 on August 19, 2020, 07:12:25 PM
I would put it in the category of "it ain't a problem until it's a problem". Run what ya got, if (that's a BIG IF) it becomes an issue, fix it.

-JW
Yep, that's a good plan. Not like it's going to see 6000rpm very much (maybe now and then of course)...   :bike:

With the ev27, would you set the PRs a little deeper into the lifters to reduce noise?  Some have suggested an extra few flats of the adjuster nut to tighten things up a bit. 

Racepres

Quote from: Adam76 on August 19, 2020, 03:24:52 PM
Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 07:20:20 AM
You can set a variable speed drill with a good chuck up in a vise and check them from both ends if you want also.

Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket.  This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled.   That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep.  That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider.  Adjustables give you control of that dimension.

Thanks kd, yes I briefly tried the drill method and I don't trust the chuck in my drill as any measure of testing pushrods straighteness 😬

The pushrods I'm taking about in this post are adjustables (not stock) so if I was to replace them I would be replacing adjustables for new adjustables..... Just don't have any experience in looking at pushrods and knowing when they're no longer in great shape and it's time to replace them?
Cheers

It would take some extensive Changes to steer me personally away from Stock Pushrods... Never seen one Fail in any way... adjustables???? Can't say that!!!

Hossamania

Adjustables do occasionally fail, but I don't see it happening in great numbers, there are hundreds of thousands of them out there running around, if it was a major problem, no shops would use them, no reputable vendors would sell them.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

Racepres

Quote from: Hossamania on August 20, 2020, 07:01:45 AM
Adjustables do occasionally fail, but I don't see it happening in great numbers, there are hundreds of thousands of them out there running around, if it was a major problem, no shops would use them, no reputable vendors would sell them.

Same was said about Wavy Washers!!!! LOL
Tho, a Good Quality adjustable Pushrod has proven itself Millions of miles ago... Buyer beware... never seen so many Cheap assed Adjustable pushrods till the Evo guys proved too lazy to remove the Rockers... or... not knowledgeable enough to get the cylinder on "stroke"... not all Mind you... But, Far far too many.. at our shop, then,  and to this Day!!!!

Burnout

Quote from: Adam76 on August 20, 2020, 02:43:46 AM

With the ev27, would you set the PRs a little deeper into the lifters to reduce noise? 


When did a EV27 become a noisy cam, never heard one.......

Any noise from the valve train would not be caused by a good EV27. (Damaged?)

Any valve train noise present with an EV27, would likely be present with any cam.

Valve train noise problems can be caused by,
Rocker shafts
pushrod covers
pushrods
lifters

It may not be valve train noise at all.
It may be detonation, an EV27 cam closes the intake valve very early which makes very high cylinder pressures.
Try retarding the spark 2 to 4 degrees and see if the noise changes.
My FXR will detonate until the VOES switches if I get the advance up too high. (sounds like valve noise)
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

JW113

I have never heard of an adjustable "just breaking", but have have seen them fail. In every case that I can think of, it was due to operator error, i.e. not getting the lock nut tight enough. Which then causes them to shorten, start rattling, and if not shut down quick enough, get caught up on the rocker box hole and break. There are a lot of high quality options for adjustable push rods. The only type that I use are the EZ Install kind, else what's the point?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

kd

Quote from: JW113 on August 20, 2020, 08:18:33 AM
I have never heard of an adjustable "just breaking", but have have seen them fail. In every case that I can think of, it was due to operator error, i.e. not getting the lock nut tight enough. Which then causes them to shorten, start rattling, and if not shut down quick enough, get caught up on the rocker box hole and break. There are a lot of high quality options for adjustable push rods. The only type that I use are the EZ Install kind, else what's the point?

-JW

Lets say you are using limiters.  You would need to set the depth to match your needs. They wouldn't necessarily need EZ install units.  The adjustables that aren't EZ units can be more stable with less possible flex etc. but allow you to control your depth settings.
KD