twin cam compensator Hot start problems

[black]

2009 deluxe 204 cams stock heads  starts right up every morning no  problem. Stop for gas or a visit then the hot start issue This bike is on its 3rd comp 1st one stock made noise from birth I then bought a used SE from a salvage yard it looked nice and the price was right $100 bucks with  stator rotor for the newer models it worked good for about 5000 miles Then i figured it was used so i bought a new one Now the new one is starting to have problems So my ? is will the man of war  comp solve this  or should I be looking somewhere else on bike to solve this, The bike has over 90000 miles on it

[kd]

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

[r0de_runr]

Manual Compression Releases.

[No Cents]

   Here is the big question...has the bike been properly tuned?
The comp really shouldn't play a big role in the bike re-starting after the engine is hot. Compression releases...yes...they can play a big role if they aren't operating properly.
   If you do have a comp noise....as kd already stated...you need to measure your stack height and possibly add a shim or two to cure your comp noise.

[Hossamania]

A questionable battery will also cause got start issues.

[black]

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

I bought two of these I will give it a go the next rain day

[black]

A questionable battery will also cause got start issues.

Just put a 500cca  battery in from battery warehouse

[Ohio HD]

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

If the bike always starts until it has problems, and the comp is changed and the issue goes away, till the cycle repeats. This above is what I'd look at.


Or just bite the bullet and get this. No springs to get weak over time and allow the sprocket to twist and lock.

https://darkhorsecrankworks.com/shop/ols/products/man-o-war-motorsprocket

[black]

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

If the bike always starts until it has problems, and the comp is changed and the issue goes away, till the cycle repeats. This above is what I'd look at.


Or just bite the bullet and get this. No springs to get weak over time and allow the sprocket to twist and lock.

https://darkhorsecrankworks.com/shop/ols/products/man-o-war-motorsprocket

That is what I think  I am done with the measuring it never comes out right for me! Bite the bullet I like the way you think  Thanks for the feed back

[rigidthumper]

An other thing you can do to help, is set the timing to -4° at the upper right section of the timing tables front/rear. This reduces starter kickback.

[harpwrench]

I'd be working on the tune (spark tables) like robin and ray have suggested. Travel limited lifters adjusted slightly off the bottom might help too.

[black]

An other thing you can do to help, is set the timing to -4° at the upper right section of the timing tables front/rear. This reduces starter kickback.

I have a powervision this can be done easy ?

[rigidthumper]

easy is relative- if you have a copy of the map currently in the ECM, you can open the software, open that map, go to the Spark tables, and adjust the upper right hand side of both F&R spark tables to reduce starter kickback.
Then flash the modified map into the bike.

[guydoc77]

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

I had forgotten how that useful thread had deteriorated. 

For the record, and specifically with regard to the OP in the current thread and as it may pertain to SE compensator issues, my 2015 Road Glide with a 113" now has the extra small spring added to the stack and went from extremely noisy to quiet as a church mouse. My 2008 Road Glide with a 107" went from moderately noisy to slightly noisy with two of the shims. Neither showed terrible wear on the spokes or ramps upon disassembly. I think the springs just lose effectiveness over time. In the case of the 2008, that SE comp was installed by me less than 5000 miles ago. It replaced the Baker which was literally shot at 4000 miles.

[98fxstc]

I'd be working on the tune (spark tables) like robin and ray have suggested. Travel limited lifters adjusted slightly off the bottom might help too.

Likely not the main problem but certainly makes a difference

[black]

easy is relative- if you have a copy of the map currently in the ECM, you can open the software, open that map, go to the Spark tables, and adjust the upper right hand side of both F&R spark tables to reduce starter kickback.
Then flash the modified map into the bike.

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

I had forgotten how that useful thread had deteriorated. 

For the record, and specifically with regard to the OP in the current thread and as it may pertain to SE compensator issues, my 2015 Road Glide with a 113" now has the extra small spring added to the stack and went from extremely noisy to quiet as a church mouse. My 2008 Road Glide with a 107" went from moderately noisy to slightly noisy with two of the shims. Neither showed terrible wear on the spokes or ramps upon disassembly. I think the springs just lose effectiveness over time. In the case of the 2008, that SE comp was installed by me less than 5000 miles ago. It replaced the Baker which was literally shot at 4000 miles.

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

I had forgotten how that useful thread had deteriorated. 

For the record, and specifically with regard to the OP in the current thread and as it may pertain to SE compensator issues, my 2015 Road Glide with a 113" now has the extra small spring added to the stack and went from extremely noisy to quiet as a church mouse. My 2008 Road Glide with a 107" went from moderately noisy to slightly noisy with two of the shims. Neither showed terrible wear on the spokes or ramps upon disassembly. I think the springs just lose effectiveness over time. In the case of the 2008, that SE comp was installed by me less than 5000 miles ago. It replaced the Baker which was literally shot at 4000 miles.

I know I have read every thread on this subject these comps work great when you first put them in  I just don't understand why  the ones in the 88in last forever and the 96 are junk after 5000 miles

[Ohio HD]

easy is relative- if you have a copy of the map currently in the ECM, you can open the software, open that map, go to the Spark tables, and adjust the upper right hand side of both F&R spark tables to reduce starter kickback.
Then flash the modified map into the bike.

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

I had forgotten how that useful thread had deteriorated. 

For the record, and specifically with regard to the OP in the current thread and as it may pertain to SE compensator issues, my 2015 Road Glide with a 113" now has the extra small spring added to the stack and went from extremely noisy to quiet as a church mouse. My 2008 Road Glide with a 107" went from moderately noisy to slightly noisy with two of the shims. Neither showed terrible wear on the spokes or ramps upon disassembly. I think the springs just lose effectiveness over time. In the case of the 2008, that SE comp was installed by me less than 5000 miles ago. It replaced the Baker which was literally shot at 4000 miles.

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

I had forgotten how that useful thread had deteriorated. 

For the record, and specifically with regard to the OP in the current thread and as it may pertain to SE compensator issues, my 2015 Road Glide with a 113" now has the extra small spring added to the stack and went from extremely noisy to quiet as a church mouse. My 2008 Road Glide with a 107" went from moderately noisy to slightly noisy with two of the shims. Neither showed terrible wear on the spokes or ramps upon disassembly. I think the springs just lose effectiveness over time. In the case of the 2008, that SE comp was installed by me less than 5000 miles ago. It replaced the Baker which was literally shot at 4000 miles.

I know I have read every thread on this subject these comps work great when you first put them in  I just don't understand why  the ones in the 88in last forever and the 96 are junk after 5000 miles

The clutch basket is made different, the compensator is made different. This because of the six speed changes. They are entirely different compensators, and the six speed has the chain on the outer side, then hiding the ramps on the inner side from oil bath. The five speed has the chain on the inner side and the ramps on the outer side where the oil gets to them.

[tripltree02]

So I can share my thoughts on your hard, hot start problem. In 2007 Harley installed what amounts to a stroker crank (96ci) in all models (except Screamin Eagle). That is a 1.2 starter. The SE starter is 1.4. The bean counters thought that the 1.2 would be just fine. I have come across this several times., and have upgraded the customers starter with a 1.4, told the customer that I would remove it if that did not solve the problem. Have not been asked to remove any starter.   Just one mans experience.

[Ohio HD]

This is why Black has starting issues, not the starter.

The guy in the video doesn't use all the correct terminology, but he's correct on early OEM compensator vs. SE style compensators.

1.2kw starters will start a stock motor just fine (unless the starter is going bad) as long as all of the mechanical issues are resolved. I used my OEM 1.2kw on a 107 @ 10.6:1 compression, then on my 117 @ 11.3:1 compression. Used the OEM starter, cables and OEM style AGM battery through 72k miles on two higher than stock compression and larger cubic inch motors. I replaced it with a 1.4kw when I went to a 124 motor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd0YsDF7gEk&ab_channel=MarkYoung-OutsideTheBox

[black]

Ohio  Do you think this is worth a try I have another spring set, was thinking double up on the smallest spring or I have two shims Maybe 1 shim and two small springs ?

[black]

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

I had forgotten how that useful thread had deteriorated. 

For the record, and specifically with regard to the OP in the current thread and as it may pertain to SE compensator issues, my 2015 Road Glide with a 113" now has the extra small spring added to the stack and went from extremely noisy to quiet as a church mouse. My 2008 Road Glide with a 107" went from moderately noisy to slightly noisy with two of the shims. Neither showed terrible wear on the spokes or ramps upon disassembly. I think the springs just lose effectiveness over time. In the case of the 2008, that SE comp was installed by me less than 5000 miles ago. It replaced the Baker which was literally shot at 4000 miles.

Thank you for your input I think that extra spring is a good one to try I have had this thing apart many times and do have an extra spring pack

[kd]

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

I had forgotten how that useful thread had deteriorated. 

For the record, and specifically with regard to the OP in the current thread and as it may pertain to SE compensator issues, my 2015 Road Glide with a 113" now has the extra small spring added to the stack and went from extremely noisy to quiet as a church mouse. My 2008 Road Glide with a 107" went from moderately noisy to slightly noisy with two of the shims. Neither showed terrible wear on the spokes or ramps upon disassembly. I think the springs just lose effectiveness over time. In the case of the 2008, that SE comp was installed by me less than 5000 miles ago. It replaced the Baker which was literally shot at 4000 miles.

Thank you for your input I think that extra spring is a good one to try I have had this thing apart many times and do have an extra spring pack

Members here were doing the bellville spring stack mod before the MOCO made the last changes to the comp for 2014.  With the introduction of the 2014 SE version along came the small .030 shim shown in Joe's thread. It became obvious that they actually did some testing for the last version and had a fix for what appeared to be machining tolerance issues that caused a loose fit.  They now have a recommended stack height and range of deflection that can be compensated with the small $5.00 shim.  Further changes to the machining quality control since has reduced the need for the shims as they usually fall within the recommended stack height right out of the box now.  You can still usually add shims if you have a clacker with a wild idle cam set. 

[Ohio HD]

Black, I would take KD's suggestion and first get a measurement with the unit on a work bench. The range it should be in as far as depth is 0.286" to 0.326" spring height. In the photo in the link, I got 0.2865" with old springs and two shims. The measure of 0.3205" is with new springs and two spacers. You can order new springs from HD, and maybe other places too.

Also if the ramps are worn out, replace the unit. Making them too tight, just causes the unit to bottom too soon. Not that you'll feel it when riding, or that it hurts the bike. It may damage the unit because it'd not designed to work that way. Then you're back where you are again.

If a new unit is needed, I'd give the DH unit a try. Order it directly from DH so you get the most recent version, John said me made a few changes to the units. Or have your favorite supplier order it to get the recent version. Don't take one from someone's stock.

Or go solid motor sprocket. If you ride higher in the RPM's not lugging the bike, it's not a problem using a solid sprocket. They will feel a little different, maybe some vibration in the real low RPM's if you're one to lug the motor.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,68275.msg1169753.html#msg1169753

[838]

Check this link out.  For $5.00 each you can fit these shims and possibly resolve the issue.  Measure the stack, do the calc and if no signs of extreme wear, I would consider it first.  Stash the money saved away for that "other" upgrade.   


http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=82010.msg917659#msg917659

If the bike always starts until it has problems, and the comp is changed and the issue goes away, till the cycle repeats. This above is what I'd look at.


Or just bite the bullet and get this. No springs to get weak over time and allow the sprocket to twist and lock.

https://darkhorsecrankworks.com/shop/ols/products/man-o-war-motorsprocket

Don't they make a 32t version of this? Looked on the site and couldn't find one?

[rigidthumper]

Yes, the Man-o-war page talks about them. Most distributors are currently out of stock- Cycle Solutions shows they have some available.

[John D]

Next batch of sprockets & drive hubs coming from heat treat by early next week, very soon we hope to have our head above water as demand has been so good.

95% of this part is manufactured in-house with the exception of cushions (still made in Wiscoonsin though) and outsourcing for heat-treat. 

Truly 100% MADE IN THE USA by steel toed booted Americans working as fast as they can to meet demand!

[black]

 Good to know, I added one extra small spring in se comp took it for a ride seems much better should get  me through the riding season in central New york. If it gives me anymore trouble the man of war comp will be my Christmas present 

[838]

Next batch of sprockets & drive hubs coming from heat treat by early next week, very soon we hope to have our head above water as demand has been so good.

95% of this part is manufactured in-house with the exception of cushions (still made in Wiscoonsin though) and outsourcing for heat-treat. 

Truly 100% MADE IN THE USA by steel toed booted Americans working as fast as they can to meet demand!

Are these designed to work well on stock HD bottom ends? The old TC ones that were pretty weak from the factory?

[Hossamania]

Next batch of sprockets & drive hubs coming from heat treat by early next week, very soon we hope to have our head above water as demand has been so good.

95% of this part is manufactured in-house with the exception of cushions (still made in Wiscoonsin though) and outsourcing for heat-treat. 

Truly 100% MADE IN THE USA by steel toed booted Americans working as fast as they can to meet demand!

Are these designed to work well on stock HD bottom ends? The old TC ones that were pretty weak from the factory?

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,111720.0.html