Upgrade to an S&S 124 LC Engine

[Die Hard]

I have a S&S 124 LC engine in a 2015 Street Glide with 21,000 miles on it. No issues, no problems, good running engine. I do almost all traveling around the country and I run it pretty hard, especially in higher altitudes like the Rocky Mountains states. The bottom and mid range are strong with the S&S 585 cam, however above that it is lacking in terms of power above 90 MPH. This bike will hit 132 MPH at the redline set at 6100-6200 RPM, however it takes a little while to get there.

I am considering adding an S&S 635 HO cam and getting some Ward headwork to get them to flow better and raise the compression from 10:2 to around 10:8. That would let me keep the dished pistons and not have to replace them.

My question is this, what is my torque curve going to look like with these changes. I don't want to give up what I have on the bottom end, just put more there for mid and top range. The only thing I see that compares somewhat is the dyno sheet from Fuel Moto on a S&S 124 HC engine with the same cam.

[hattitude]

I am considering adding an S&S 635 HO cam and getting some Ward headwork to get them to flow better and raise the compression from 10:2 to around 10:8. That would let me keep the dished pistons and not have to replace them.

My question is this, what is my torque curve going to look like with these changes. I don't want to give up what I have on the bottom end, just put more there for mid and top range.

The only thing I see that compares somewhat is the dyno sheet from Fuel Moto on a S&S 124 HC engine with the same cam.

I have the FuelMoto 124" Outlaw crate engine... they spec out their S&S Outlaw crate engine with gear drive 635 cams, their "Outlaw" valve job on S&S Super Stock castings, and 10.6:1 compression... I had Jaime tune it..

Turned out good with 151 max TQ... here's my sheet.. bike's a lot of fun....

[rigidthumper]

6200 RPM/high gear/late model bagger on the dyno is ~160 MPH, so if you're losing ~30 MPH, there is two things that come to mind-

1) What was your clutch upgrade, and are you using stock gearing? 90 MPH with stock 6th gear is only ~3500 RPM- that should be @/near the torque peak with that engine.

2) Wind resistance is brutal, and the faster you go, the more pressure you have to overcome. (Baggers are about like pushing a 4x6 sheet of plywood sideways down the road, so it consumes a lot of power to do so)

If the lower gears pull as expected, then it has to be the coefficient of drag- and that can be overcome by brute force (and cubic dollars)

[kd]

2)    that's the big one no one considers fully.  Comparing to a sidecar mounted and off will drive it home bigtime. 

[turboprop]

I am surprised the usual arm chair commandos  have have not done multiple deep dives into the differences in wind load between various configurations of bat wings and shark noses. The possibilities are endless, one antenna vs two, full size vs chopped tour pack, etc.

[RTMike]

Star racing uses that cam in there thrasher kits with good results ,talk to George he will be strait with you.

[Nastytls]

I am surprised the usual arm chair commandos  have have not done multiple deep dives into the differences in wind load between various configurations of bat wings and shark noses. The possibilities are endless, one antenna vs two, full size vs chopped tour pack, etc.

For someone that likes to moan about answers that aren't tech related, your post doesn't offer much in the way of a technical answer to the OP.  You also seem to get fairly uptight when people dare to go off topic on your threads, and yet, here we are....

[turboprop]

I am surprised the usual arm chair commandos  have have not done multiple deep dives into the differences in wind load between various configurations of bat wings and shark noses. The possibilities are endless, one antenna vs two, full size vs chopped tour pack, etc.

For someone that likes to moan about answers that aren't tech related, your post doesn't offer much in the way of a technical answer to the OP.  You also seem to get fairly uptight when people dare to go off topic on your threads, and yet, here we are....

I know right? Crazy. But as long as we are talking about wind resistance of baggers, why not. Seems like a subject that has not already been beaten to death and has plenty of room for speculation.

[Hossamania]

 

[1workinman]

I have a S&S 124 LC engine in a 2015 Street Glide with 21,000 miles on it. No issues, no problems, good running engine. I do almost all traveling around the country and I run it pretty hard, especially in higher altitudes like the Rocky Mountains states. The bottom and mid range are strong with the S&S 585 cam, however above that it is lacking in terms of power above 90 MPH. This bike will hit 132 MPH at the redline set at 6100-6200 RPM, however it takes a little while to get there.

I am considering adding an S&S 635 HO cam and getting some Ward headwork to get them to flow better and raise the compression from 10:2 to around 10:8. That would let me keep the dished pistons and not have to replace them.

My question is this, what is my torque curve going to look like with these changes. I don't want to give up what I have on the bottom end, just put more there for mid and top range. The only thing I see that compares somewhat is the dyno sheet from Fuel Moto on a S&S 124 HC engine with the same cam.

I not a fan of the 635 camshaft but I only know how that cam acted in my 143 . A few years ago I saw a dyno sheet of a lc 124 that used the 585 cam and had head work . I think Rick Ward and if I remember it went in the 140s square .  A bump in compression and it really shined . So its your choice but you can use your cam you have now . I can look to find the dyno sheet if you want on here. As far a going max out I going to pass . I just want to cruise on my old bikes

[KiwiRob]

Have you considered the S&S 625 at 11 - 11.2:1. Scary quick in my old Twin Cam 120. - Rob

[Ohio HD]

This setup from Zippers always has had my interest. Using the cams and setting the compression in yours to 11.0:1 with a razer sharp tune would give a lot of get up and go. I have good info from the horses mouth so to speak that they shoot for 10:1 corrected compression.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,94372.msg1091908.html#msg1091908

[No Cents]

  I would suggest the CR630i over the S&S 635HO cams.
I believe Jamie even sells the CR cams nowadays. I'd call him and run your plans by him and see what he thinks.
  I've been running the CR630i cams for years in my 124. I love them. They pull extremely hard off the bottom and deliver super strong power all the way out the back door. Wes did a great job designing this set of cams.

[turboprop]

This setup from Zippers always has had my interest. Using the cams and setting the compression in yours to 11.0:1 with a razer sharp tune would give a lot of get up and go. I have good info from the horses mouth so to speak that they shoot for 10:1 corrected compression.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,94372.msg1091908.html#msg1091908

I have this same engine combo in my blue/white FXR. Definitely not a racer, but a whole bunch of fun. This bike could probably pull a boat trailer up a mountain in fifth gear. Very torquey. If I were to waste money on an engine for my bagger this would probably be it.

[Ohio HD]

This setup from Zippers always has had my interest. Using the cams and setting the compression in yours to 11.0:1 with a razer sharp tune would give a lot of get up and go. I have good info from the horses mouth so to speak that they shoot for 10:1 corrected compression.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,94372.msg1091908.html#msg1091908

I have this same engine combo in my blue/white FXR. Definitely not a racer, but a whole bunch of fun. This bike could probably pull a boat trailer up a mountain in fifth gear. Very torquey. If I were to waste money on an engine for my bagger this would probably be it.

Yeah, he's running a  bagger, so I figure that this is possibly of interest to him.

[838]

  I would suggest the CR630i over the S&S 635HO cams.
I believe Jamie even sells the CR cams nowadays. I'd call him and run your plans by him and see what he thinks.
  I've been running the CR630i cams for years in my 124. I love them. They pull extremely hard off the bottom and deliver super strong power all the way out the back door. Wes did a great job designing this set of cams.

You've made a lot of performance adjustments (cam swaps) to your build. What is it about this setup that keeps you from digging back in there... again

[No Cents]

   this is why.
A lot of fun to be had under this curve.

[attach=0,msg1365172]

[838]

   this is why.
A lot of fun to be had under this curve.

[attach=0,msg1365172]

That's 158/153 in my book... fix your signature!!! Pretty sweet. This cam is on my shirt list for a 124 softail build... might be picking your brain soon... if that's ok??!!👍👍

For the OP... if you can get 10.8:1 you're in prime tr590 zone... would make a great sport touring combo!!!

[Die Hard]

Thanks for the input!

So is it safe to say that if I can achieve 10:8 compression with my existing dished pistons and Ward head work, the results will be the same as flat top pistons with heads configured to them for 10:8? In other words, does it matter how I get there?

[No Cents]

Thanks for the input!

So is it safe to say that if I can achieve 10:8 compression with my existing dished pistons and Ward head work, the results will be the same as flat top pistons with heads configured to them for 10:8? In other words, does it matter how I get there?

   I would ask Rick if he can get your heads set up to hit your desired compression using your dished pistons .

[CVOKing]

I think you would be amazed at what would happen if ya did good headwork and bumped cr and left the 585 in it

[Die Hard]

Funny you say that CVO King. Jim at Mega Flo said the same thing.

[Barrett]

Ask your porter about the 1.725 rockers for .621 lift.

[Tireman]

Funny you say that CVO King. Jim at Mega Flo said the same thing.

Just curious Have you decided on who will be doing your heads Ward or MegaFlo? Can't go wrong either way!

[C-Cat]

I like the idea of moderate compression S&S 640 cams in a124 over 585's. 145+ HP and TQ on tap with good heads (Megaflo) quiet valve train and plenty of extra power over the 585's. Or for more seat of the pants earlier TQ TMan 662-2 or CR cams like No Cents and tapping that 124's potential.

[838]

I like the idea of moderate compression S&S 640 cams in a124 over 585's. 145+ HP and TQ on tap with good heads (Megaflo) quiet valve train and plenty of extra power over the 585's. Or for more seat of the pants earlier TQ TMan 662-2 or CR cams like No Cents and tapping that 124's potential.

Those two are on my short list too. And woods 9b.

[conmag]

What does Wards recommend for a cam?

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Wood 9F, or T-Man 662-2 @ 11.0 cr, with the heads rolling around 310 cfm at 28", tame pump gas friendly.
Borezilla, and a 62, or 66mm.
Hits hard, and carry's great torque all the way thru.
Just finished another one locally...143/147.

[1workinman]

  I would suggest the CR630i over the S&S 635HO cams.
I believe Jamie even sells the CR cams nowadays. I'd call him and run your plans by him and see what he thinks.
  I've been running the CR630i cams for years in my 124. I love them. They pull extremely hard off the bottom and deliver super strong power all the way out the back door. Wes did a great job designing this set of cams.

I can only say if you could have drove my bike with the 635 cam in it and now with the 640 cam . Night and day difference.  I never used the 630i but I always wonted to . But the 635 camshaft for me is not on the list 

[CVOKing]

I have the FM 124 with 635HO it's never came even close to the numbers they claim. Then my buddy bought one with same less than great results.

[Don D]

So that's the cams fault? I am not a fan of the cam but that makes the whole build?

[FLDavetrain]

I have the FM 124 with 635HO it's never came even close to the numbers they claim. Then my buddy bought one with same less than great results.

Curious did they give any explanation why?

[hattitude]

I have the FM 124 with 635HO it's never came even close to the numbers they claim. Then my buddy bought one with same less than great results.

Just curious what they claimed it would get.....?

Did they say why it fell short...?

Did they offer a solution for the decreased performance results...?

I found FuelMoto to be quite honest about expectations/results/solutions, when I had them install a 124" Street Outlaw in my 2016 Ultra Classic...

I originally wanted a big bore (107/110) kit.. So in preparation for the big bore, I bought one of their Jackpot Road & Track 2-1 exhaust systems.. I installed it and really liked the sound/performance..

About 6 months later, I talked with FuelMoto about scheduling my engine build... During our discussion, I decided to change to their 124" crate engine instead of a big bore kit. I was told that my Road & Track only supports up to about 117" displacement and they suggested the Jackpot Street Outlaw exhaust for the 124" crate engine for best results....

Wanting to do it right the first time, I bit the bullet and bought another new exhaust... I left it in the box, and put it with other pre-purchase items for the crate engine install (throttle body & injectors) that I was bringing with the bike to FuelMoto for the crate engine install/tune.

When I got to FuelMoto, Jaime saw the near new Road & Track on my bike, and the new (in the box) Street Outlaw exhaust. He offered me a solution...  He knew I was more about low/mid torque than high rpm HP...  He said he would tune the new engine with the Road & Track exhaust first.. if it didn't tune well, he would them swap it out for the newer Street Outlaw exhaust... BUT.. if he could get it tuned well with the Road & Track, he'd give me a full refund for the Street Outlaw exhaust...

He tuned the 124" (with 635 cams) to 151 TQ & 135 HP... and true to his word, gave me a full refund on the Street Outlaw exhaust.. He gave me a great running bike, and saved me $800...

That showed me he has integrity, cares about customer satisfaction, and isn't just about selling stuff & making money...

[CVOKing]

I'm not bitching about Jamie. Just saying we couldn't duplicate even close to the numbers. We didn't have exact combo as him. And we don't do 6th gear pulls like him. But, in our experience these don't really out perform the stock crates we have seen.

[FLDavetrain]

I'm not bitching about Jamie. Just saying we couldn't duplicate even close to the numbers. We didn't have exact combo as him. And we don't do 6th gear pulls like him. But, in our experience these don't really out perform the stock crates we have seen.

I took a chance gave those outlaw heads a shot on a 124, different cam, more than healthy comp and came up short too. Unfortunately will have to make some changes and spend some real $$

[838]

I thought fuel Moto ran the 9b in their outlaw motors?

[Barrett]

I'm not bitching about Jamie. Just saying we couldn't duplicate even close to the numbers. We didn't have exact combo as him. And we don't do 6th gear pulls like him. But, in our experience these don't really out perform the stock crates we have seen.

I took a chance gave those outlaw heads a shot on a 124, different cam, more than healthy comp and came up short too. Unfortunately will have to make some changes and spend some real $$

Were they still a 2" valve head and do you know how much they flowed?
Mine only get to about 300CFM's with a 2" valve. It's really all I need for a 117".

[CVOKing]

Yes they are stock valve sizes on the outlaw super stocks. The Zach Johnson Super Stocks I use to own was another level from these

[C-Cat]

The last couple sets of heads I've had done, came with full documentation of all specs and work done, including Flow. To me they're the best working heads out of 6 sets I've had done over the years. This way the customer can actually get an idea of how much love went into the product. Not saying you need this for good working heads, but it does check any area of concern to the extent of work performed. Some builds may only require a clean up and appropriate valve springs to achieve results.

[Barrett]

The last couple sets of heads I've had done, came with full documentation of all specs and work done, including Flow. To me they're the best working heads out of 6 sets I've had done over the years. This way the customer can actually get an idea of how much love went into the product. Not saying you need this for good working heads, but it does check any area of concern to the extent of work performed. Some builds may only require a clean up and appropriate valve springs to achieve results.

Am I wrong thinking a strong 124" needs an intake valve bigger than a 2"?
When I asked GB at Star he told me I was fine with my 117" so I went with it.
After looking deeper It seems I'm just right there. So I'm thinking a 124" would need a bit more.

[C-Cat]

I leave that to whoever is doing the work. Depends on the castings, and what the build requires to hit its potential. CVO 110 Heads have bigger valves than the S&S Super Stocks and they seem very comparable.

[Barrett]

Mine are 2" S&S Super Stock 89cc.With a Star port job hitting 300CFM's.
I've seen a few SE heads ported going 330+and I'm guessing the larger valve is the factor.
When I ran the numbers mine came out just right for a 117". So I would "think" a 124" would need more.
Just guessing and I've been wrong plenty of times..

[C-Cat]

Just have the S&S heads reworked with larger valves for the 124ci. Find someone (Starr Racing) who works with those heads and you'll be there. I would have used S&S SS's on my 124 but it cheaper to pick up the 110's off eBay for cheap and have them gone through, over buying the S&S SS heads for retail and having them reworked..

[1workinman]

Just have the S&S heads reworked with larger valves for the 124ci. Find someone (Starr Racing) who works with those heads and you'll be there. I would have used S&S SS's on my 124 but it cheaper to pick up the 110's off eBay for cheap and have them gone through, over buying the S&S SS heads for retail and having them reworked..

I don't have any advice on cheaper although I wish I do . I had a set of SS heads sent to Jim at mega flow that he did and the job in my option is first class . I pretty sure the heads have the larger intake valves . One of the things you get form Jim is a build sheet that tells you what was done and what it flows . Nice work     

[838]

Mine are 2" S&S Super Stock 89cc.With a Star port job hitting 300CFM's.
I've seen a few SE heads ported going 330+and I'm guessing the larger valve is the factor.
When I ran the numbers mine came out just right for a 117". So I would "think" a 124" would need more.
Just guessing and I've been wrong plenty of times..

I bought a set of 110" heads (second hand) that were worked over by Gregg Dahl. They didn't look like they'd had much done but they flowed 310 @28. I was told Gregg is good with the 110" heads, but he's "the man" for the s&s heads. I sold those 110" heads locally last summer and they're getting prepped for a 124" build as we speak by Kirby. This info was second hand, but Kirby said 310 was good, but a 124" can and will use more.

[C-Cat]

Just have the S&S heads reworked with larger valves for the 124ci. Find someone (Starr Racing) who works with those heads and you'll be there. I would have used S&S SS's on my 124 but it cheaper to pick up the 110's off eBay for cheap and have them gone through, over buying the S&S SS heads for retail and having them reworked..

I don't have any advice on cheaper although I wish I do . I had a set of SS heads sent to Jim at mega flow that he did and the job in my option is first class . I pretty sure the heads have the larger intake valves . One of the things you get form Jim is a build sheet that tells you what was done and what it flows . Nice work   

You won't be disappointed with them. I have his 110's on my 124ci. Dyna. Very happy with how it tuned out!

[Die Hard]

I am the one that started this thread back last fall. Thank you for all the advice and input!

I did go with MEGAFLO on my S&S Super Stock heads and Jim got 330 CFM out of them. I was very impressed with his work, turn around time to get them done, his extensive product knowledge and helpful technical support. I discovered he's been doing this kind of work for over 40 years. These heads, combined with S&S flat top pistons, resulted in a 11:25 to 1 compression ratio to go with the 640 easy start cams I went with.

The bike is scheduled for a dyno tune with Dave Stoddart at JD's Cycle Works next week and I am anxious to see the results.

Again, many thanks to all that contributed their help to this upgrade.

[Tireman]

I am the one that started this thread back last fall. Thank you for all the advice and input!

I did go with MEGAFLO on my S&S Super Stock heads and Jim got 330 CFM out of them. I was very impressed with his work, turn around time to get them done, his extensive product knowledge and helpful technical support. I discovered he's been doing this kind of work for over 40 years. These heads, combined with S&S flat top pistons, resulted in a 11:25 to 1 compression ratio to go with the 640 easy start cams I went with.

The bike is scheduled for a dyno tune with Dave Stoddart at JD's Cycle Works next week and I am anxious to see the results.

Again, many thanks to all that contributed their help to this upgrade.

What day? I'm scheduled with JD's for my dyno session on the 16th for my Mega Flo 117" Tri Glide. Jim worked his magic on a set of CVO 110 heads and put the S&S crank with S&S piston cylinder kit.

[Die Hard]

I am due there on the 17th, 8 AM.

[Tireman]

Die Hard your mailbox is full!