Woods TW 999-6 / Tman 590ps2

[mickblues]

Wanted recommendations from those that have any experience with these. I have a dyna

SS 110
10.7 c
Dave Mackie ported heads
springs lift to 600
5.3 injectors
HPI 55 mm TB
current cam TTS 150
thrashin AR 2-1 exhaust
Current numbers: 118hp/ 132 tq - STD smoothing

tts150 isn't terrible but it's a bolt in and was thinking either the woods or tman would be an upgrade as they are high performance cams.

[harpwrench]

Have you thought about a Mackie 598 to go with his heads?

[mickblues]

No but will check it out. Would they be an upgrade?

[harpwrench]

Hard to say, it's more complicated than that:) They're all great cams, what works best depends on what you want to do, and what the pipe and heads want. Do you have the specs on the TTS150?

[Ohio HD]

Wanted recommendations from those that have any experience with these. I have a dyna

SS 110
10.7 c
Dave Mackie ported heads
springs lift to 600
5.3 injectors
HPI 55 mm TB
current cam TTS 150
thrashin AR 2-1 exhaust
Current numbers: 118hp/ 132 tq - STD smoothing

tts150 isn't terrible but it's a bolt in and was thinking either the woods or tman would be an upgrade as they are high performance cams.

Do you know what the compression is set at? The numbers aren't bad at all, they like a good 10.5 or 10.6 with a good tune. If you're looking for more top end, there are better solutions though. But you may loose off the bottom torque a little.

[mickblues]

TTS doesn't publish specs.  My compression is 10.7:1

[838]

Have you thought about a Mackie 598 to go with his heads?

He also makes a 570 that's similar to his old 590. Talk to Mackie.

[mickblues]

Another question is I feel like my bike is going thru RPMs rev quickly especially in gears 1 to 4. As result bike feels sluggish or doesn't move smoothly thru gears.  Is this a cam issue or what? Anyone experience this?

[Hossamania]

I'm a little confused by your statement. You're saying it revs quickly, but feels sluggish. Can you clarify a little?

[C-Cat]

Sounds like you're making  power if it's revving faster. Wouldn't slower revs mean the bike is slower? The bike is going the same speed if it's at  5700 in 4 the gear whether it gets there ( Accelerates) faster or slower.

[kd]

If it's not accelerating your clutch is slipping. If it's jerky your clutch is slipping.   Hmmmm ... ... maybe your clutch is slipping. 

[harpwrench]

Maybe with 132 tq your tire is spinning 

[Hossamania]

Another question is I feel like my bike is going thru RPMs rev quickly especially in gears 1 to 4. As result bike feels sluggish or doesn't move smoothly thru gears.  Is this a cam issue or what? Anyone experience this?

Your posts asking this same question in other sections and threads are duplicates, not allowed to post duplicate threads.
You've been given a couple answers here, and a query for clarification. Is it possible that your clutch is slipping?
What exactly is happening?

[Don D]

48 overlap and some pretty substantial TDC lifts, .222/.215, for the TW999-6. Ask the guy tuning the bike for an opinion and first ask the head porter if there is valve to valve clearance.

[C-Cat]

48 overlap and some pretty substantial TDC lifts, .222/.215, for the TW999-6. Ask the guy tuning the bike for an opinion and first ask the head porter if there is valve to valve clearance.

What compression and CCP is recommended for the TMan 590 PS2's? It has been the consensus that it was 10.8:1 with the old TMan 590, however the PS2 version has an earlier intake close, and exhaust timing is quite different, resulting in less overlap? Seems the Woods 999 would need more compression than the 590 PS2's or original 590's?

[Don D]

Right you are, I still use 10.7 on the ps2 cams

[Bafflingbs]

Wanted recommendations from those that have any experience with these. I have a dyna

SS 110
10.7 c
Dave Mackie ported heads
springs lift to 600
5.3 injectors
HPI 55 mm TB
current cam TTS 150
thrashin AR 2-1 exhaust
Current numbers: 118hp/ 132 tq - STD smoothing

tts150 isn't terrible but it's a bolt in and was thinking either the woods or tman would be an upgrade as they are high performance cams.

I have a 110" set to 10.5/1, level B heads, 999-6a cams, a ported, stock 50mm throttle body, stock 4.9gps injectors, and I'm at 117/130, if that helps any.
[attach=0,msg1367097]

[C-Cat]

Looks like you have more on tap up top. That should pull to 5800-6000 IMO. Maybe more TB will help. The bottom and mid-range are getting it done! 

[Bafflingbs]

I'll be damned if I can remember where I saw or heard it, but, project Rushmore brought the 50mm throttle body and (I thought) 4.9gps injectors. Maybe it was Fuel Moto that told me, but, I can't remember. I've been searching the internet for the answer, but, I'm at a loss. I remember asking if I should go to a larger tb and 5.3 injectors, and was told I didn't need them. Perhaps, if you know where to find the correct answer, you can help clarify.

[Bafflingbs]

Looks like you have more on tap up top. That should pull to 5800-6000 IMO. Maybe more TB will help. The bottom and mid-range are getting it done!

Yeah, I think it's reached it's peak HP, right there at 5250, and was looking for just a little more air or fuel, or both. 4.9 gps injectors are good to at least 130hp, so maybe Tail Ridr is right? Maybe only 4.3gps? Otherwise, it would have to be the throttle body. Anyway, I'm not going to chase 2-3hp. I did port my stock tb, but, I've also read that the new throttle body's can't be opened up any further. Porting just changed angles for positive results. I had thought about the HPI 55mm, prior to my build, but was told it wasn't worth it.

[C-Cat]

You've gone this far, get the full potential from your build. Many 110's are doing 125+HP and usually pull 5700-6000 rpm with less cam than the Woods 999's. My opinion is you would gain quite a bit more than 3-4 with 55mm. TB/ 5 3 Injectors

[Bafflingbs]

I actually agree with you, and will do exactly that, eventually. However I'm in over $10k into this build. I don't normally ride it that far up in that rpm range. And when I do, I don't feel that dip. It runs fantastic as is. I did talk to Bob today, from Fuel Moto, and he did say I would probably gain a bit on top, by going bigger. So, we'll see. He also confirmed the injectors were 4.9gps.

[Jamie Long]

I actually agree with you, and will do exactly that, eventually. However I'm in over $10k into this build. I don't normally ride it that far up in that rpm range. And when I do, I don't feel that dip. It runs fantastic as is. I did talk to Bob today, from Fuel Moto, and he did say I would probably gain a bit on top, by going bigger. So, we'll see. He also confirmed the injectors were 4.9gps.

The 08-16 throttle by wire twin cam FLH (and 17 Softail) have 4.3 injectors, if you go with a larger throttle body with your build you would need the 5.3's

[838]

I have not seen a sheet where the 999-6A goes over 120hp. I've always wondered if the potential was there. Most builds with this setup look just like bafflingbs. I've also never seen or heard of it being installed at larger cubes than 110". It seems to bring the torque on real good at low ccp however 👍. The specs of the cam would lead me to believe you'd need an ace tune regardless.

[rigidthumper]

I have a friend who wants to use his 999-6 cams in a 124 build (they were seriously underwhelming in his 103/10.5/MVA setup  , so it's on to version 2).
What could go wrong ?

[838]

I have a friend who wants to use his 999-6 cams in a 124 build (they were seriously underwhelming in his 103/10.5/MVA setup  , so it's on to version 2).
What could go wrong ?

999-6 needs more compression. Is he going to use it in a 124"???

[C-Cat]

Those cams probably should be 10.8-11 to 1 compression and I would think a lot of can for a 103. Never ran them, did have the 777's and they pulled to 5700 on a 107 made 110/114 with a budget 1.90 valve head stock TB. It was between the 999's and TMan 590 PS2's  on my current 110 build. Went with 590 PS2's and moderate compression 195/195 ccp and I'm very happy. I do think if I went with the 999's and a little more compression I wouldn't look back either way.. Along with the same HPI 55/58 TB and great flowing reworked stock heads 1.94/161 I'm now running

[rigidthumper]

I have a friend who wants to use his 999-6 cams in a 124 build (they were seriously underwhelming in his 103/10.5/MVA setup  , so it's on to version 2).
What could go wrong ?

999-6 needs more compression. Is he going to use it in a 124"???

Yes- 124 flat tops @ 11:1 with the 999 cams

[838]

I have a friend who wants to use his 999-6 cams in a 124 build (they were seriously underwhelming in his 103/10.5/MVA setup  , so it's on to version 2).
What could go wrong ?

999-6 needs more compression. Is he going to use it in a 124"???

Yes- 124 flat tops @ 11:1 with the 999 cams

I'll be doing something Very similar next year... with the 9B though.

[Don D]

9b is not the same.

[rigidthumper]

I'm trying to talk him into the CR630I ( or another cam that will produce 140+/squared)

[838]

9b is not the same.

No sir. , not the same.

I like the 630i idea as well.

[Don D]

The wider lsa will work better with my heads

[Bafflingbs]

You've gone this far, get the full potential from your build. Many 110's are doing 125+HP and usually pull 5700-6000 rpm with less cam than the Woods 999's. My opinion is you would gain quite a bit more than 3-4 with 55mm. TB/ 5 3 Injectors

I took part of your advice, since my throttle body is ported. I'm having 5.3gps injectors installed. I'm guessing the flattening at the end of my rpm range, has more to do with the 4.3 stock injectors running out of steam. It's coming together nice.

[kd]

A point to consider is your tune.  It will be set for the smaller injectors and need to be3 adjusted to prevent over fueling and possibly throttle response / progressivity.

[Ohio HD]

You've gone this far, get the full potential from your build. Many 110's are doing 125+HP and usually pull 5700-6000 rpm with less cam than the Woods 999's. My opinion is you would gain quite a bit more than 3-4 with 55mm. TB/ 5 3 Injectors

I took part of your advice, since my throttle body is ported. I'm having 5.3gps injectors installed. I'm guessing the flattening at the end of my rpm range, has more to do with the 4.3 stock injectors running out of steam. It's coming together nice.

Generally speaking when the injectors are at 100% duty cycle, the motor sputters and breaks up. You can make about 100 to 105 hp reliably with 4.3 injectors.

Flatting is probably the heads, compression, and cams. They won't give any more.

[Bafflingbs]

A point to consider is your tune.  It will be set for the smaller injectors and need to be3 adjusted to prevent over fueling and possibly throttle response / progressivity.

Ok, I'll make sure he makes the changes, however, won't my Thundermax auto tune for the difference?

[Bafflingbs]

You've gone this far, get the full potential from your build. Many 110's are doing 125+HP and usually pull 5700-6000 rpm with less cam than the Woods 999's. My opinion is you would gain quite a bit more than 3-4 with 55mm. TB/ 5 3 Injectors

I took part of your advice, since my throttle body is ported. I'm having 5.3gps injectors installed. I'm guessing the flattening at the end of my rpm range, has more to do with the 4.3 stock injectors running out of steam. It's coming together nice.

Generally speaking when the injectors are at 100% duty cycle, the motor sputters and breaks up. You can make about 100 to 105 hp reliably with 4.3 injectors.

Flatting is probably the heads, compression, and cams. They won't give any more.

I'm confused, I already have 117HP. It just plato's passed 5250. In any case, I'm not changing anything else. I'm really happy with what I have. If anything, it should respond a little better. (Not that response is an issue)

[Ohio HD]

You've gone this far, get the full potential from your build. Many 110's are doing 125+HP and usually pull 5700-6000 rpm with less cam than the Woods 999's. My opinion is you would gain quite a bit more than 3-4 with 55mm. TB/ 5 3 Injectors

I took part of your advice, since my throttle body is ported. I'm having 5.3gps injectors installed. I'm guessing the flattening at the end of my rpm range, has more to do with the 4.3 stock injectors running out of steam. It's coming together nice.

Generally speaking when the injectors are at 100% duty cycle, the motor sputters and breaks up. You can make about 100 to 105 hp reliably with 4.3 injectors.

Flatting is probably the heads, compression, and cams. They won't give any more.

I'm confused, I already have 117HP. It just plato's passed 5250

Reliably, not meaning maximum.

100% duty cycle is when injectors stop working, stop supplying fuel.

[Bafflingbs]

    

[Bafflingbs]

I'd love to see what my dyno shows now! It definitely has a huge bump in power. I'm not sure why, but it does. Feuling 5.3 injectors? Zipper's blueprinted cam plate? Zipper's dual piston cam chain tensioner? Feuling oil pump? Darkhorse crank? Timken conversion? The melted spark plug wire? Oversized roll pins to keep the lifters tracking properly? The fact that my exhaust gaskets were obstructing the exhaust pipe by as much as 1/8" all around? Or maybe, the dyno tune was set at 14.0/1 afr. and is now running richer and cooler, thanks to one of the best T-Max tuners there is? At any case, the bike burns through first too fast to avoid the dreaded rev limiter, without popping the clutch. The tire burn's out with just a twist of the wick! Second gear gets squiggly as well, and again unintentionally hit the rev limiter. Third is manageable but pulls so friggen hard! Thing is, it has real power, in any gear. If you've never heard of Lucky Cycles, in Maryland, you don't know what you're missing. He's partnered with Zippers, for almost 2 decades, and is actually referred to for T-Max tuning, buy Zipper's. He also has a great relationship with Darkhorse. I'm super stoked. He said I could very safely, set my redline to 6,500rpm's! I know it was still looking for more, so I'm in! I was literally shaking, from the rush, after I got back to the house.

[kd]

Did you get a graph we can look at for comparison?  BTW, You'll get used to the power.  Your hooked now  and I see a 124 for you in my crystal ball. 

[Bafflingbs]

  No more graphs, no more engine

[C-Cat]

Sounds like you got her ripping, Congratulations. Did you redyno  since the Fuel Motto Dyno? What do you mean by no more engine?

[Bafflingbs]

No more engine mods. I'm really, really happy, but, have broken the bank. The tune I have now, has given me more seat of the pants acceleration. I've got less heat, no detonation and more confidence that I won't have a catastrophic failure. This build, not including exhaust or tuner, has cost me in the neighborhood of $13k! That $8k more than I planned to spend. As far as another dyno test, maybe later. I can almost say for certain, though, I've definitely gained power. My wheel never broke loose by simply gunning the throttle before. It burns all the way through 1st now. Whatever he did, made a huge difference. Not to mention, the drivetrain noise is gone.

[kd]

I get it that you blew the budget but you don't want to risk it by saying "it goes like a scalded cat now so iut must be OK".  At least get an AFR check done.  Can you do a few logs with your tuner and ask someone (Jamie?) to confirm it's safe to run as is.  It shouldn't cost too much for that.  The 13 large you already spent can be lost without you realizing it is in trouble.  It is easy to score pistons and barrels with a fat or lean tune for example. Just sayin. Others may chime in about this too.

[Bafflingbs]

I got ya now. The guy who originally installed my Thundermax, is highly recommended by Zipper's themselves. That's who hooked it up the computer, and changed the AFR's set by Jamie. He went through my tune, and saw irregularities. Such as  14.0/1 AFR' s at wot. I was also getting detonation under load. I'm not anymore. It seems to be more responsive, and, it runs cooler. It ran very hot before. I'm going to ride it for 1,000mi., and he'll go back in and make adjustments again. The guy really is a genius with the T-Max. He's been tuning them for about 15 years, that I know of.

[mickblues]

Those cams probably should be 10.8-11 to 1 compression and I would think a lot of can for a 103. Never ran them, did have the 777's and they pulled to 5700 on a 107 made 110/114 with a budget 1.90 valve head stock TB. It was between the 999's and TMan 590 PS2's  on my current 110 build. Went with 590 PS2's and moderate compression 195/195 ccp and I'm very happy. I do think if I went with the 999's and a little more compression I wouldn't look back either way.. Along with the same HPI 55/58 TB and great flowing reworked stock heads 1.94/161 I'm now running

Thinking exactly between those two for my bike Tman or 999. What's your compression? Mine is 10.7 I spoke with Bob at Fuel Moto and said the 999-6 would be good for my build.

[C-Cat]

I used the S&S 110 Kit and was targeting 10.75:1 The pistons were below zero deck. We didn't measure how far. My CCP is 195 each cylinder, was looking to be in the 205 neighborhood. I'd estimate 10.5:1. I almost went with the 999's, probably would have if I went with 110 or SS castings. My heads are stock castings
83cc chamber 1.94/1 61 with 1.73 port 55mm. HPI TB. Also running a Boarzilla.
  I'd go with the Tman 590 PS2's at your compression.

[mickblues]

How does the bike feel / perform with those Tman 590 ps2?

[C-Cat]

Strong, it ignites the rear tire 1st gear roll-ons and revs quick. The Boarzilla is a lot of pipe for the 110, I'd say great midrange and pulls hard to 5800-6000

[mickblues]

Nice this might be an upgrade from my tts 150 cam. I will have to look at this seriously or the 999 but should get the Ccp for my bike.

[C-Cat]

The wider lsa will work better with my heads

Can you elaborate why that is? Do you  treat heads differently if using cams with a narrow LSA than with cams with a wide LSA,  or go to different castings to compliment?

[Don D]

Not exactly. Wider LSA works better with any heads that function well, up to a point and assuming compression is adjusted for the intake close. In other words heads that breath well in the lift range +, and have the proper CSA for the given build. Of course you can go the other way, too wide of a LSA, as some cam tuners do that. This can give the "on cam" feel latter to "come on". Other cams I have noticed are on wide and late LC and LSA plus an exhaust that opens too early and too long, another set of problems.
Back to the close LSA, it adds overlap and TDC lift and associated potential issues. This tool has been leveraged by Woods and others, nothing new, and results in a high early torque curve and usually an early to shut down build in the rpm range. Extreme examples of the same are the S&S 635, Woods 408 and 400. Example of the other scenario Feuling 574. Pick your poison but don't forget about the pipe, it is equally or more important. If I was looking for a cam in the same class as the 999 I would look further assuming the heads were functioning well as I described. Long before the trick was leveraged by Harley guys it was done by stock class racers on short tracks limited to stock lift and duration cams and stock (well in theory) heads.

From another forum..
As a guideline, if the rest of the numbers are comparable, a cam with a lobe that is less separate (for example, 98 to 103 degrees) will offer a broader spread of power and tend to produce power at the low end, while wide lobes make for a more "cammy" cam, coming on harder and later in the game. Lobe Separation Angles (LSA) of 100-103 degrees tend to produce power at the low end.

LSA and Lift affect the "sound" and idle quality. Generally, smaller lobe separation angles cause an engine to produce more midrange torque and high rpm power, and be more responsive, while larger lobe separation angles result in broader torque, improved idle characteristics, and more peak horsepower.

A "tight" lobe separation angle of 103 degrees or less creates more valve overlap, which helps create that lumpy idle characteristic of big camshafts. The tighter LSA's are, the more likely problematical exhaust reversion into the intake will occur. Put simply, we can say that a tight LSA cam produces a power curve that is, for want of a better description, more "punchy." At low rpm when off the cam, it runs rougher, and it comes on the cam with more of a "bang." Narrow LSA's tend to increase midrange torque and result in faster revving engines. Generally, smaller lobe separation angles cause an engine to produce more midrange torque and high rpm power, and be more responsive. Typically, however, small lobe center numbers (more overlap) equates to more midrange power at the expense of top-end power. Probably the most significant factor to the engine tuner though is a tight LSA's intolerance of exhaust system backpressure. Remember, during the overlap period both valves are open. If there's any exhaust backpressure or if the exhaust port velocities are too low it will encourage exhaust reversion. A cam with 102 degrees of lobe separation angle will have more overlap and a rougher idle than one with 108 degrees, but it'll usually make more midrange power. A tighter lobe has more overlap. A tighter centerline starts torque curve sooner, and doesn't give a wide power band. A wider lobe doesn't start the torque curve sooner, but it continues to make torque longer and has a broader power band.

Wide LSA's result in wider power bands and more peak torque at the price of somewhat lazier initial response. Larger lobe separation angles result in broader torque, improved idle characteristics, and more peak horsepower. A wider lobe doesn't start the torque curve sooner, but it continues to make torque longer and has a broader power band. A street engine with a wide LSA has higher vacuum and a smoother idle. Big numbers (less overlap) will give more top end, sacrificing midrange. A cam on wide centerlines produces a wider power band. It will idle smoother and produce better vacuum, but the price paid is a reduction in output throughout the working rpm range.

Narrow LSA (98-103)
Moves Torque to Lower RPM
Increase midrange Torque
Increases Maximum Torque
Faster revving engine and more responsive
Narrow Power band
Builds Higher Cylinder Pressure
Increase Chance of Engine Knock
Increase Cranking Compression
Increase Effective Compression
Idle Vacuum is Reduced
Idle Quality Suffers (lumpy idle characteristic)
Open Valve-Overlap Increases
Closed Valve-Overlap Increases
Decreases Piston-to-Valve Clearance

Wide LSA (104-108)
Raise Torque to Higher RPM
Reduces Maximum Torque
Broadens Power Band
Lazier initial response
More peak Horsepower
Reduce Maximum Cylinder Pressure
Decrease Chance of Engine Knock
Decrease Cranking Compression
Decrease Effective Compression
Idle Vacuum is Increased
Idle Quality Improves
Open Valve-Overlap Decreases
Closed Valve-Overlap Decreases
Increases Piston-to-Valve Clearance

[C-Cat]

Thank you, that's what I call a detailed answer!

[Ohio HD]

That's kind of the cams 101 info.


https://tmfcycles.com/blogs/tech-tips/cams-explained

[Hilly13]

All great info for those wanting to understand but I think the biggest thing to get right when picking a cam/build is, taking the weight of your ride into consideration, how do you ride, what is your fun factor and build it to that, won't be everyone's cup of tea, dyno graph might not win at the bar but your riding enjoyment will be steller and that's the bit that matters most, well to me anyway.

[C-Cat]

That's kind of the cams 101 info.
I understand that, although my question was pertaining to HD Performance's Head work, and he answered my question derived from his quote.

https://tmfcycles.com/blogs/tech-tips/cams-explained

"The wider LSA will work better with my heads"

[Ohio HD]

That's kind of the cams 101 info.
I understand that, although my question was pertaining to HD Performance's Head work, and he answered my question derived from his quote.

https://tmfcycles.com/blogs/tech-tips/cams-explained

"The wider LSA will work better with my heads"

I wasn't answering for anyone. I was directing to a source of camshaft basics. There are others besides yourself that are reading the post.

[C-Cat]

I apologise. Sometimes I interpret text wrong and misunderstood your post.

[Don D]

Something not mentioned in that great text about cams.
We now are building predominantly EFI bikes engines. The intake is dry and fuel (and spark) by program. Injector timing is being tweaked as well, especially important beginning of injection. The potential benefits of large amounts of overlap are no longer needed. We can have a much smoother running, easier to tune, high horsepower build come together and that ties into my comments about tight LSA and the potential associated PMS. It's evolution, we are building beast M8s now with 25 and less overlap. Same comment for the .660+ VS <.600 lift cams. In my opinion the potential gains VS costs, which include maintenance, are questionable for most riders. Good heads that flow well in the intended direction are the start. 

[shindig]

Something not mentioned in that great text about cams.
We now are building predominantly EFI bikes engines. The intake is dry and fuel (and spark) by program. Injector timing is being tweaked as well, especially important beginning of injection. The potential benefits of large amounts of overlap are no longer needed. We can have a much smoother running, easier to tune, high horsepower build come together and that ties into my comments about tight LSA and the potential associated PMS. It's evolution, we are building beast M8s now with 25 and less overlap. Same comment for the .660+ VS <.600 lift cams. In my opinion the potential gains VS costs, which include maintenance, are questionable for most riders. Good heads that flow well in the intended direction are the start. 

And this is why my package from Don with a little 590 cam in a 117 with no PMS, great street manners, beats up on a lot of those high lift packages....even some of those 124s...  Its all about the correct combination and build....  Thanks again Don!