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New 2005 88" Longblock - w-a-a-a-y too tight!

Started by Tacocaster, October 30, 2020, 12:55:48 PM

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Tacocaster

My friend broke his 2005 88" motor earlier this year and decided (entirely his choice) to go with a new HD Longblock replacement with a new 'Lefty' bearing. Fast forward a few months and we finally received and began the final assembly of said part.

During final assembly, with only the rocker blocks and rockers installed as well as the primary drive components installed (valve train still  free without pushrods cams/plate, etc installed) we tried to spin the engine using 5th and rotating the rear wheel. Not a chance! So we moved to a breaker bar on the sprocket shaft nut in Neutral. I could turn it (counter-CW) but man, I was in to it with at least 50 ft/lbs of force.

Couple of drops of engine oil down the plug holes, a few rotations with lots of effort but no noticeable improvement. Not a sound of anything unusual during the rotations.

Full disclosure - we did note the rotor did not sit flush (no wobble) on the sprocket shaft when installed but stabilized when the comp and nut was installed.(low output alternator requires spacer on comp side of rotor).

I'm now thinking the factory assembly was flawed and got the rings to wall clearances too tight. I can't imagine anything else would cause this......unless.......there's a new lefty bearing and the rotor would not sit flush on the sprocket shaft (w/o wobble) - perhaps there's a crankcase issue? Doubtful as we can rotate and there's no unusual sound.

Dunno. I'm at a loss right now and reaching.

I'm sure someone here is going to suggest pulling the heads and measuring the clearances and if that's what's needed, that'll be done but I thought I'd toss this out into the ether to see if any of you guys with engine experience can toss something insightful back my way first - or even agreement that is the way to go.

Any additional front of mind suggestions you can offer (besides returning to the Dealer we bought it from)would be appreciated.

Taco

We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

convert1967

 (valve train still  free without pushrods cams/plate, etc installed)

Valves would all be closed, no place for air to escape.

smoserx1

QuoteValves would all be closed, no place for air to escape.

Remove the plus and try again...you will know for sure then.

Tacocaster

Sorry guys, thought it was implied when I mentioned "oil down the plug holes" - they were out throughout the process.
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

turboprop

The test will be the engine in a stand, plugs out, rotating the engine with an appropriate wrench. If it does not rotate easily, take it back to the dealer. No discussion or hypothesizing required. Send it back and do not accept the replacement until inspecting it at the dealership.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

FXDBI

Quote from: turboprop on October 30, 2020, 01:32:39 PM
The test will be the engine in a stand, plugs out, rotating the engine with an appropriate wrench. If it does not rotate easily, take it back to the dealer. No discussion or hypothesizing required. Send it back and do not accept the replacement until inspecting it at the dealership.

:agree:  Disassemble the primary and see if it turns over if it does not  take it back.   Bob

kd

October 30, 2020, 02:49:51 PM #6 Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 06:20:32 PM by kd
With the pushrods out and the plugs in, when turned over onto a compression stroke it should be noticeable.  When you release the power on the wrench / cranking device, the compression should rotate the engine back until the compression dissipates again. That is performed without the primary or the charging system installed.  When removing those components look for witness marks from anything contacting.  It may become obvious.

I really can't imagine that the engine assembly wasn't levered over when / after it was put together.  That's a real basic thing to do.
KD

Tacocaster

Turboprop and FXDBI have the same idea as us. I was just asking in case there was something I'm missing. We will "communicate" our situation with the Dealer tomorrow. If the outcome is anything of note, be assured I will share with y'all.
Thanks KD for the 'extra' step suggestion. It may come to that if the Dealer turns their back for some reason although this particular Dealer has been outstanding for more than a few of us here in Southern NB. In fact, one of our moderators here on HTT works there, I do believe (HV).
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

kd

HV has been a real asset to this forum and I am sure he will be helpful figuring this out.

Typically, with the plugs out, pushrods in and valves adjusted, when you rotate an engine there are various places you can stop it when valves are open. The springs alone will cause the engine to rotate on it's own.  You can tell when that's occurring by leaving the pushrod covers collapsed and watching the pushrods move up indicating valve spring compression. 
KD

rigidthumper

Is the spacer behind the rotor the correct size?
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

Tacocaster

Rigidthumper got it!

We found the problem by removing the entire primary assembly including Rotor and Plugs, then re-installing just the Compensating Nut and rotating - Spins freely!!!

What we found was the large (long) spacer located on the Sprocket Shaft behind the Rotor was missing!

Essentially, the Compensating Assembly when torqued was pushing the Rotor against the Stator windings. No damage fortunately to the Stator or Rotor (spun it very few times). The Rotor was not against the block.

A quick search of all the boxes holding all the old parts and bingo! The missing spacer!

Also interesting to note was the fact the 2005 HD Service Manual does not call-out this part except in one diagram (no text). Other than that, there is no reference to it. Believe half of what you read and ALL of what you see, comes to mind.

Anyway, she's spinning and WE'RE GOOD!!!
Thanks for the interest and the help guys!
And glad we got to close this one out for the next guy.
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

FXDBI

Quote from: Tacocaster on October 31, 2020, 10:07:36 AM
Rigidthumper got it!

We found the problem by removing the entire primary assembly including Rotor and Plugs, then re-installing just the Compensating Nut and rotating - Spins freely!!!

What we found was the large (long) spacer located on the Sprocket Shaft behind the Rotor was missing!

Essentially, the Compensating Assembly when torqued was pushing the Rotor against the Stator windings. No damage fortunately to the Stator or Rotor (spun it very few times). The Rotor was not against the block.

A quick search of all the boxes holding all the old parts and bingo! The missing spacer!

Also interesting to note was the fact the 2005 HD Service Manual does not call-out this part except in one diagram (no text). Other than that, there is no reference to it. Believe half of what you read and ALL of what you see, comes to mind.

Anyway, she's spinning and WE'RE GOOD!!!
Thanks for the interest and the help guys!
And glad we got to close this one out for the next guy.

Lucky there is no damage, another example of if it dont turn DONT get a bigger wrench.  There is a reason to check the fits of everything dry before assembly. Its a good practice to turn things over has u bolt it together to ensure there is no mechanical binding like you found.   Bob

Ohio HD

Next time for all, the way to assemble is:

1st stage: motor is completed (all tests performed as well)
2nd stage: anything that is not motor



Tacocaster

Got a quick reply from our Regional Dealer. He was all in to help us out before I got back to him to say it's been resolved.

Told you they were outstanding!

Taco
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

Tacocaster

One last gasp.....

We did finally find reference to the "missing" part in the Service Manual's Crankcase Section. It's called a Sprocket Shaft Spacer.

During disassembly of the "old" Crankcases we're assuming it "appeared" and was placed in the wrong parts box (instead of the Primary Chaincase Assembly box where it belonged).

If you ever find yourself using the HD Longblock Replacement Program you'll learn the Crankcases have to be split and the sprocket side case needs to be sent to HD for the Serial Number transfer to the new case.

Oh, and by the way, in case I haven't stated before, we found the HD Program to be an excellent solution if you're ever unfortunate enough to grenade your motor.
Taco
We're all A-holes. It's to what degree that makes us different.

FXDBI

Quote from: Tacocaster on November 02, 2020, 10:03:49 AM
One last gasp.....

We did finally find reference to the "missing" part in the Service Manual's Crankcase Section. It's called a Sprocket Shaft Spacer.

During disassembly of the "old" Crankcases we're assuming it "appeared" and was placed in the wrong parts box (instead of the Primary Chaincase Assembly box where it belonged).

If you ever find yourself using the HD Longblock Replacement Program you'll learn the Crankcases have to be split and the sprocket side case needs to be sent to HD for the Serial Number transfer to the new case.

Oh, and by the way, in case I haven't stated before, we found the HD Program to be an excellent solution if you're ever unfortunate enough to grenade your motor.
Taco

Its part of the learning process ,something that a experienced engine builder knows to check in the prep work before assembly.  You got lucky and didnt break anything.  Its not a race assembling anything, check check and re check dont force anything. You can also never be clean enough.   Bob