1997 softail starter or misaligned jackshaft?? any Ideas

[KatalogKarl]

Seems I got myself into something helping another guy out on someone else's work. 1997 Heritage Softail stock motor. ignition/cam/S&S all mild usual off the shelf stuff.. Guy would crank to start and obviously a problem with starter gear. Grinding, spinning with no engagement of starter. Bad. This owner went and changed starter thinking it was that, and still same problem. Yes I found Starter Ring Gear and jackshaft gear(Bendix) missing teeth and gear useless. Read that it was pretty much a issue with 102 tooth rings. Got him to go out and get a compufire 84 tooth ring gear kit which included new Bendix gear. All went back together and even AIR GAP the jackshaft .094 to ring gear as advised in instructions. Between .075-.125 is the range.
Put scoot back together and it starts. Shut scoot down by kill switch on handlebars and repeat start and kill 5-6 times. But then the next try on start all I got was the clicking of solenoid.   Found a problematic crappy battery. Replaced with TwnPwr  battery 320cca. But again upon 5-6 start run and off and start and run the scoot may only give you a solenoid click. So for the "Potty mouth" of it, put a battery charger on battery and let sit for a few minutes and bike will start and run.
My question is voltage that I can tell of battery drop is from 13.23 to 11 or so starter engaged. All battery cables stock. Is this more of a starter problem that its not able to turn motor over when hot? And done repeated as such. 102 tooth ring gear to 84 teeth ring now? Or is it the added torque to stock starter not able to handle heat load unless juiced more on battery? What am I missing? Higher tq starter? Any recommendation's. Thanks. Karl     

   

[thumper 823]

It would seem you have found the problem with the voltage drop.
The residual recovery also confirms it.
It used to be kind of rule- a  9.6 drop was allowed in most things.
So whilst your battery is bowing out early it could be a starter draw?
Or as you listed,- better battery cables required?
However,  in real life how many times do you have to do consecutive starts three or four times in a row?

[Hossamania]

Was the new battery charged to full before first use? I find that when my battery gets a little low, that is when I may get some grinding at start up.
Charge the battery to full, take the bike for a twenty minute ride, let it sit for a minute or two, as if getting fuel, then start it again. If no problems, call it good.
Battery condition has a lot to do with starter conditions. 3, 4, 5 starts in a row can tax a marginal battery (even if new).

[KatalogKarl]

A few very good points. Agreed battery has a big factor in play. That's why the previous battery took a dump. that one was a import off the shelf wally world one and well over a year old. Also how likely is one to repeat start up and shut down and up again more than 1 or 2 times. Agreed. What I would like to know if anyone knows or has had a problem with this problem when changing out to a lower number of teeth on starter ring gear. More teeth less strain or need to turn over hard. Less teeth more strain to turn over.
I only make this assumption (yes I know where that word leads) potty mouth ??. My experience with a few cycle rebuilds was when I bumped up compression in engine the starter was not up to task of turning over. But it did when i juiced the heck out of battery. Could this be similar? Load test battery and allow guy to drive it around for a bit. 

[calif phil]

A Custom Cycle Engineering starter solenoid button might be a good addition.  I know it's not the root of his problem, but it sure can come in handy sometimes on old bikes. 

[wfolarry]

If you're getting 5-6 starts out of it I think you're doing pretty good. I don't know what size battery is in your bike but in my 85 Electra Glide it's not that big & I know for a fact that's all it's good for on a warm day. In the cold weather you better hope it starts the first time because you might not get a second chance. It's been like this for 35 years with different engine combos ranging from stock to a 100" Fatso motor. It's currently an 88".
I thought the starter or the battery was going bad a couple years ago. I was at my buddy's shop & he said it was the shaft. I don't remember which one he put in (I think he gets them from the HD dealer) but he had one so he put it in. Bike starts easier than it ever did. No other changes. And I've tried everything. Go figure.

A Custom Cycle Engineering starter solenoid button might be a good addition.  I know it's not the root of his problem, but it sure can come in handy sometimes on old bikes. 

I put one on my bike & it's nice to have. There have been a couple times I just got a click from the start button then hit this & it cranked. Haven't used it in a while but it's nice to have options. 

[KatalogKarl]

  I was told by local cycle repair guy that (I was overthinking this whole thing) Well that may be true but its how I was taught and worked. Whole picture. But this local cycle shop gets 65 bucks for 3 qts of synthetic and a filter. I tend not to do much business with this shop but bike owner said lets get stuff there. Ok his money. Yesterday with starter out you can see jackshaft to starter was not lined up really straight. Slanted. So without taking clutch hub off pulled starter gear and bolt out to realign. Thought about getting a solid jackshaft to do away with coupler. When owner purchased new twn pwr battery for his model 320cca was sized up. But when checked with meter for amps/volts it was a bit down. Trickle charge overnight.  Now what i am about to write what happened next was not my doing. I walked away and this why too many people and hands around when you work is a Freggin problem. Had oil tank out to properly align starter shaft with starter and all. Went A ok. A buddy of owner decides to use a battery charger/jumper to test starter and engagement. I went to take a break. All of a sudden yelling of smoke and shut it off. Bike has a Dyna 2000 ignition with module and all installed. Smell of something electrical. Pulled plugs out and went to turn cycle over and magic smoke arose a leak of the module could be seen when unbolted from frame.  Not my doing. But cycle turned over better for at least 4-5 times when tried. I do not what else is affected electrical wise but we will see when owner/ his buddy gets new module. I have reached out to Calif Phil to see what is available. Thanks for all input and reading of this thread. Unbelievable. What price do i charge now for work??? will update when it runs.. Thanks Karl                                   

[Hossamania]

When I'm working on a bike, I prefer no help. Sounds like if you choose to work on it going forward, tell everybody to leave, you'll call when done, charge hourly now for repair, unless this is a friend and no charge.
Still, if you're working on it, no help.
A relatively straight forward job just became way more involved than necessary.
My customers often ask if they can help, I always tell them sure, but I have to charge double. They give me a look, but seem to understand.

[KatalogKarl]

  Hossamania. Hell yeah. Agreed. Understand. Phil reached out and replacement ordered. Owners Buddy is willing to pay for fried unit. Hourly pay. Live in the armpit low wage part of Florida where some think used bike rubber is the right thing to buy. Just do not mess with there beer money. NO Disrespect meant to anyone. Just a observation. Its why I end up repairing others messes. What a way to get wrench experience.  Will keep posted. Thanks to all.. Karl

[KatalogKarl]

Update. Calif. Phil sent part needed. Installed and bike runs great after configuring dip switches for best performance. All in all lessons learned. Batteries need to be at best charge. Agreed that most will not start and stop motor 5-6 times (unless other problems exsists) Also I needed to change out solenoid plunger because of burns thru copper washer on shaft. Probably due to start issue's and ring gear problem. Finally do not let anyone else screw around and help you out. Because of problems listed in prior thread.  And use a good manufacture of battery (not a 1 year wonder China) and watch your electronics because of how a bad battery can wreck them. Thanks all.. Karl

[Hossamania]

Congrats on getting it up and running.